Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Furious D 18 10-13-05, 12:23 AM	A player in my group has been thinking of taking the Fabricate spell. I have never used the spell, so I read up on it. Fabricate: You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. You can't make magic items, and you need a Craft check to make anything really good. So what can you really do with this spell? It's a 5th level spell, so it has to do something, but I can't think of anything. Does anyone know of any useful applications of this spell?
Bryarr 10-13-05, 12:45 AM	You can't make magic items, and you need a Craft check to make anything really good. So what can you really do with this spell? It's a 5th level spell, so it has to do something, but I can't think of anything. Does anyone know of any useful applications of this spell? You mean without ranks in a craft skill? Bry
revnk 10-13-05, 12:45 AM	A player in my group has been thinking of taking the Fabricate spell. I have never used the spell, so I read up on it. You can't make magic items, and you need a Craft check to make anything really good. So what can you really do with this spell? It's a 5th level spell, so it has to do something, but I can't think of anything. Does anyone know of any useful applications of this spell? It's a spell that saves man hours. The PHB on p.229 includes examples like converting a grove into a bridge. So, for instance, a caster using three or four fabricate spells could make a ship and rigging out of a sufficiently large pile of wood, cloth and raw hemp in a matter of minutes instead of taking days or even weeks. As one example that comes right to mind for some reason. "Really good" is subjective and relative: if demons pursue you to the edge of a ravine, one simple bridge is easily worth a million items "requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." The only real limits on the spell, when you get down to it, are the caster's imagination and raw materials. So it's actually quite powerful under the right circumstances.
rkr1970 10-13-05, 01:08 AM	This is one of the best spells in the game for a creative player. He can leave half of his equipment behind. These ideas are without any craft checks. 1.) You need to get through a door in a dungeon. You turn some of the floor into a sledge hammer. 2.) You need to tie up a prisoner. Any cloth or vegetable matter around can be turned into a hemp (or better) rope. 3.) A large iron grate, too thick to bend by hand, falls from the ceiling, blocking your path. Turn a portion of the grate, making a hole, into a crowbar to make a bigger hole. 4.) You've just found out that the large mithril snuff box you bought from the street vender is the prince's and the guard are looking for it. Change it into a nice, mithril walking stick before the gaurd search you. 5.) You are trying to cause a distraction in a major city, but can't be anywhere near when it occurs. A small part of the wooden supports for the guard tower's balcony makes a dandy club. Hmmm... What was that scream and whare is that commotion coming from? Oh well.... 6.) Several monsters are chasing you and you need a chance to catch your breath. Quick! Through that door and then transform the stone around it into a couple of beams that run across the door, bracing it against intrusion. 7.) You need to lie in wait for someone you've been hired to assassinate. Slip into that alcove and alter the wooden walls so they make the alcove into a closet with no door. Leave a couple of holes to breath and look out, and make the new wall thin enough so that you can break through it when your target's body guards finally leave the room. 8.) A giant is chasing you through the woods. Find the nearest fallen log and transfigure it into several very large wooden caltrops. 9.) After chasing a group of bandits for a week, they lead you to a river where they cross on the only boat available. Presto-chango! That tree is now a dugout canoe. 10.)You've beaten the dungeon. You're on your way home with a pile of loot. Suddenly, a storm comes up and you have to find shelter. Luckily, all those sets of leather armor you took off your enemies turn into a sturdy little tent! And this is all just off the top of my head...
Furious D 18 10-13-05, 03:33 AM	I don't know... a lot of those seem to be "Stone Shape" spells and "Warp Wood" spells. Or maybe "Fabricate" mimics those spells. It all seems pretty confusing to me. I guess it depends largly on the circumstances and situation. I hope the player passes on this spell because I can tell that it's gonna give me plenty of headaches. "I cast Fabricate to turn his shirt into a noose which is too small for his neck so it starts choking him." "I cast Fabricate to turn the man's barstool into a wooden spear which stabs him through his behind. His own weight causes the spear to penetrate his body and he automatically suffers a coup de grace."
SwitchUK 10-13-05, 03:34 AM	Presto-chango! rkr1970 wins the thread.
rkr1970 10-13-05, 03:51 AM	I don't know... a lot of those seem to be "Stone Shape" spells and "Warp Wood" spells. Or maybe "Fabricate" mimics those spells. It all seems pretty confusing to me. I guess it depends largly on the circumstances and situation. I hope the player passes on this spell because I can tell that it's gonna give me plenty of headaches. "I cast Fabricate to turn his shirt into a noose which is too small for his neck so it starts choking him." "I cast Fabricate to turn the man's barstool into a wooden spear which stabs him through his behind. His own weight causes the spear to penetrate his body and he automatically suffers a coup de grace." In both cases, the object is attended, and therefore receives a saving throw (even though the spell doesn't say so, it is implyed). Also, since the object being altered is the material component of the spell, you must at least be touching, if not in out right possesion, of the material being altered. Finally, both of those scenarios would afford the victim a save. (And a CdG is a full round action that requires accuracy)
High Octane 10-13-05, 04:44 AM	Watch Full Metal Alchemist. ENJOY!
MarkB 10-13-05, 05:11 AM	Also, since the object being altered is the material component of the spell, you must at least be touching, if not in out right possesion, of the material being altered. Actually, the range is Close, so that wouldn't be the case. However, the minimum casting time for the spell is one full round, so any opponent has plenty of time to react if something around them starts changing shape.
Gedrin 10-13-05, 05:20 AM	Fabricate can break a game world...completely. A major city has a single (1) "Fabricator". The sole source of taxation in the city is a small fee paid by craftsmen to use the Fabricator. It is a use activated item that requires nothing other than the skill to make the desired item, and the materials. With this item, a single smth can make roughly 2500 suits of Full Plate armor a day. That number could be higher, but you have to spend at least one round dumping steel in and one round pulling your armor out. Not to mention lunch and a nap. Apply the same to other professions, like Alchemists. Of course, making anything near instantly is only part of the fun. We can recycle too. Cracked, warped, mangled plate armor, is new again. Anything that can be made, can be fixed...instantly. No need to get new materials, and as long as the materials are chemically sound (or can be reclaimed by one of the above Alchemists) you can turn swords to plowshares, litterally, as needed. Then if you wanted to spread smaller Fabricators around, you could have recycling cisterns, where waste is instantly converted into safer, usable, materials. Trash becomes raw materials for the craftsmen to use at the fabricator. Then we have the nightmare of rapid prototyping. I've got this great idea for a repeating crossbow...nope, nope, nope..but...no...no, there we go. God help you if your campaign has gunpowder.
rkr1970 10-13-05, 05:23 AM	Actually, the range is Close, so that wouldn't be the case. However, the minimum casting time for the spell is one full round, so any opponent has plenty of time to react if something around them starts changing shape. True. I was just showing ways to adjudicate it without actually nerfing it.
VerinBlod 10-13-05, 07:29 AM	Does anyone know of any useful applications of this spell? Besides the examples that rkr1970 gave. How about ruining the local economy? Combine wall of iron with fabricate to create enormous amounts of full plates, swords or what not. Cost nothing and if dumped on the local economy will ruin the economy quickly.
Brknlf 10-13-05, 09:18 AM	1.) You need to get through a door in a dungeon. You turn some of the floor into a sledge hammer. Or, the smarter fabricator merely changes a part of the door into something else, reaches through the hole and unlocks it - saving the fighter a few rounds of swinging a stone hammer to bust the door open (which, in turn, could possibly arose any nearby beasties).
rkr1970 10-13-05, 12:37 PM	Or, the smarter fabricator merely changes a part of the door into something else, reaches through the hole and unlocks it - saving the fighter a few rounds of swinging a stone hammer to bust the door open (which, in turn, could possibly arose any nearby beasties). But the party barbarian is happiest when smashing things :D
Voran 10-13-05, 05:53 PM	Imagine if Macgyver had the fabricate spell :) Or the A-team. Generally speaking though, I've found it kinda like the Lyre of Building, useful for doing big quick projects, like bridges, towers, hell you could make a decent outpost outta that. And you can use it to break the power of Unions! Scab!
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 06:03 PM	Fabricate + Ironwood = +1 platemail out of any ole deadwood. Fabricate + wood of any sort = instant ballista (poor dragon.... old Faerun joke) Fabricate is a great spell because it only requires *1* check to do. Craft can be used untrained, which means any decent wizard will have a minimum of 4-5 ranks in it. Then, you take 10. Personally, this spell is the reason why I take any craft skills at all (usually woodworking: hey presto! instant ornate cabinet worth a few hundred gps in pure profit).
Jancarius 10-13-05, 06:14 PM	Fabricate can break a game world...completely. A major city has a single (1) "Fabricator". The sole source of taxation in the city is a small fee paid by craftsmen to use the Fabricator. It is a use activated item that requires nothing other than the skill to make the desired item, and the materials. With this item, a single smth can make roughly 2500 suits of Full Plate armor a day. That number could be higher, but you have to spend at least one round dumping steel in and one round pulling your armor out. Not to mention lunch and a nap. Apply the same to other professions, like Alchemists. Of course, making anything near instantly is only part of the fun. We can recycle too. Cracked, warped, mangled plate armor, is new again. Anything that can be made, can be fixed...instantly. No need to get new materials, and as long as the materials are chemically sound (or can be reclaimed by one of the above Alchemists) you can turn swords to plowshares, litterally, as needed. Then if you wanted to spread smaller Fabricators around, you could have recycling cisterns, where waste is instantly converted into safer, usable, materials. Trash becomes raw materials for the craftsmen to use at the fabricator. Then we have the nightmare of rapid prototyping. I've got this great idea for a repeating crossbow...nope, nope, nope..but...no...no, there we go. God help you if your campaign has gunpowder. My DM would cry
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 06:23 PM	My DM would cry LoL! Then suggest it for the fun of seeing a grown man cry :D Remember, only do it for fun.
monkofpassion 10-13-05, 06:52 PM	Ever heard of the stronghold builders guide?
Edymnion 10-13-05, 08:50 PM	Okay, let me put it this way. Work out the craft time on a suit of Adamantine Full Plate, using normal crafting rules. Now compare how long it takes to craft the same armor using Fabricate. If memory serves, its like 30 years versus 1 full round. Trust me, nobody but the most masochistic dwarf on the PLANET actually crafts adamantine the old fashioned way.
rkr1970 10-13-05, 09:05 PM	Trust me, nobody but the most masochistic dwarf on the PLANET actually crafts adamantine the old fashioned way. I don't know... I imagine there are a few 1st or 2nd Ed dwarves that just don't trust this newfangled arcane stuff... :D
Loren Pechtel 10-13-05, 11:07 PM	I don't know... a lot of those seem to be "Stone Shape" spells and "Warp Wood" spells. Or maybe "Fabricate" mimics those spells. It all seems pretty confusing to me. I guess it depends largly on the circumstances and situation. I hope the player passes on this spell because I can tell that it's gonna give me plenty of headaches. "I cast Fabricate to turn his shirt into a noose which is too small for his neck so it starts choking him." "I cast Fabricate to turn the man's barstool into a wooden spear which stabs him through his behind. His own weight causes the spear to penetrate his body and he automatically suffers a coup de grace." Attended items, fails. Besides, IIRC it only works on unworked materials.
Loren Pechtel 10-13-05, 11:09 PM	Okay, let me put it this way. Work out the craft time on a suit of Adamantine Full Plate, using normal crafting rules. Now compare how long it takes to craft the same armor using Fabricate. If memory serves, its like 30 years versus 1 full round. Trust me, nobody but the most masochistic dwarf on the PLANET actually crafts adamantine the old fashioned way. You're assuming they are wizards of a high enough level to cast it.
wolf_mage 10-13-05, 11:19 PM	You're assuming they are wizards of a high enough level to cast it. No, he's assuming that there are wizards of a high enough level who choose to use it. Which is a perfectly safe assumption. I mean, in the entire game world, will there not be one or two Wiz13 Dwarfs, at the very least? And since the answer is clearly yes, who is to say that some might not realise what they could do with Fabricate?
Shaken, not Stunned 10-13-05, 11:46 PM	If the material has to be unworked, most of rkr1970's suggestions don't work.
20goingon1232 10-13-05, 11:50 PM	If the material has to be unworked, most of rkr1970's suggestions don't work. It has to be unworked, although I'd rule that a log is considered unworked.
MarkB 10-14-05, 04:41 AM	It has to be unworked, although I'd rule that a log is considered unworked. I've scoured the spell description in the SRD (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm), and I can't see any mention at all of the material needing to be unworked.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 09:30 AM	I've scoured the spell description in the SRD (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm), and I can't see any mention at all of the material needing to be unworked. The descriptions of the spell, both PHB & SRD, mention neither an object needing to be unworked or unattended. A spell that can differentiate between the intricate matrix of wood in its natural state and wood that has simply been carved is too often much for my suspention of disbelief, anyway. That the spell doesn't mention attended objects seems a gross oversight, as it could, therefore, be used to turn an enemy's plate mail into a single piece of steel even without a skill check. And I feel it should mention possesion of the object, or at least contact with the portion affected, to prevent a mage from turning the stone of the floor into an airless prison with no save for the victim.
Spike_Fightwicky 10-14-05, 10:00 AM	Think of how much easier it would be to make golems! A stone Golem body costs 5000gp to make, Iron costs 10,000gp to make and clay costs 1500gp. Taking just a clay golem, it'll take 1500gp=15000sp to build it from the original lump of clay. In one week, suppose you roll 30 on your craft check. The DC is 20 to build a clay golem body, so your total progress is (20*30=600sp). So in a week, you've accomplished 600sp worth of progress versus the 15000sp it takes to build the thing. And this is just the clay golem. The stone and Iron golems will take even longer. Think about the time the wizard took to build a golem next time you smash it :D With fabricate, you make one DC 20 craft check, and in a few rounds, you have a perfect clay golem body. Same goes for equipment. Suppose you have a lump of steel. Instead of taking a week or more to craft a masterworked sword, you can get it done in just one round. Full-plate? It'll take a little longer than the clay golem without fabricate. Also note that you can't make a wall of iron into armor. Well, you could, but I wouldn't suggest using Iron as the base metal instead of his better quality cousin Steel. Now if you can work that wall into steel, then you're good to go to arm a small army.
MarkB 10-14-05, 10:16 AM	The descriptions of the spell, both PHB & SRD, mention neither an object needing to be unworked or unattended. A spell that can differentiate between the intricate matrix of wood in its natural state and wood that has simply been carved is too often much for my suspention of disbelief, anyway. Well, Transmute Rock to Mud manages this trick with stone, so it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented. But I agree, Fabricate does not make this distinction. That the spell doesn't mention attended objects seems a gross oversight, as it could, therefore, be used to turn an enemy's plate mail into a single piece of steel even without a skill check. And I feel it should mention possesion of the object, or at least contact with the portion affected, to prevent a mage from turning the stone of the floor into an airless prison with no save for the victim. Those are nasty oversights. It seems most sensible to take a cue from other spells, and give attended items a Reflex save, and likewise - as with Wall of Stone - give creatures a Reflex save to avoid any detrimental effects. In any case, though, the minimum 1-round casting time will be enough reaction time for opponents in most situations.
scott644 10-14-05, 11:52 AM	Fabricate is not a combat spell by any stretch of the imagination. Well, not a tactical one - it may be useful in the strategic sense if you can buy the time for the caster to get the spell off. Consider the armor idea above. Cast it and reduce metal to a simple awkward plate, or make metal armor for your allies. It takes 1 round per cubic foot of any mineral, and metals are minerals. I've never really done the figures, but already fabricated materials tend to be bulky and stick out, thus increasing the overall volume. My personal measure is basically to round 10 pounds of metal armor into 1 cubic foot. This means there's not a single item of metal armor in the PHB that wouldn't take at least 3 rounds to remove using fabricate. As for making armor, we all know while it can be done, you also need to make the skill check, spend the casting time, and finally take the time to put it on; neither is very tactical at all. Strategically however, it's a beautiful spell - if you have a few minutes between expected combats, you can build, repair, modify or destroy items as needed. My personal favorite use is if you have a craftsman-type character. For instance, I play a wizard who is a member of an alchemists' guild in one game. He must produce goods every day to stay in good odor with the guild. However, he also has his adventures which take time away from his crafting. So whenever expecting to need time, he uses fabricate and crafts a few things in the morning, then turns it over to his clerk to handle while he goes out adventuring. Two lifestyles managed, in character, without requiring any major stretch of the imagination to accomplish. :)
solbergb 10-14-05, 11:59 AM	A cubic foot of metal is sufficient to sunder any weapon or shield. A cubic foot is a *lot* if you work it out by weight. A full round spell to get a high DC will save "sunder" effect on an object is sometimes useful - save is 3 higher than "shatter". But more likely for a sorc than a wiz, or for a wiz who prepped fabricate for other reasons but really needs a sunder right now.
scott644 10-14-05, 04:04 PM	A good point. Still, kind of weak when one considers this is done using a level five slot where a level 2 slot will do perfectly well.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-14-05, 04:55 PM	Watch Full Metal Alchemist. ENJOY! Hear, hear! Basically everything Ed and Al do can be achieved with fabricate except perhaps in scale ('cause Ed transmutes some really, really big things). It's arguable because Craft is technically more than one skill, but a wondrous item that grants a +10 competence bonus to a skill is 10,000 gp. You're a wizard, so you've got a decent Int. Everybody has Craft as a class skill, so just put a point in armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, and maybe woodworking just for kicks. Then take your skill bonus item and Craft your little heart out. At minimum caster level, you can rework 9 cubic feet of a mineral. A little research and math reveals that nine cubic feet of mithral is about 2,200 lbs; over a ton. Even if you fail one out of every five Craft checks, that's still 70 suits of mithral full plate in one round. Selling them at market value nets you 735,000 gp, minus what it took to get all that mithral in the first place. So yeah, a single 10th-level wizard can ruin any mining and smithing town in about a week, then fireball the angry mob and move on.
Esgay 10-14-05, 05:38 PM	wow I just realised that this spell is perfect for our current campaign, we've all been shunted into the future where all sentient life has vanished, we're currently exploring a fortified city and have stumbled across a forge with plenty of supplies in it, shame my wizard character's only level 2.
Simetrical 10-14-05, 05:45 PM	My personal measure is basically to round 10 pounds of metal armor into 1 cubic foot.You're off by a factor of roughly 50 for steel, give or take―steel is in the vicinity of 500 pounds per cubic foot. See here (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/KarenSutherland.shtml). Aluminum is around 160, lead is 700, gold 1200, titanium 280, and mithral presumably about 250. Even wood is between 27 (cherry) and 45 (mahogany, birch). This (http://www.mcelwee.net/html/densities_of_various_materials.html) provides useful info (one g/cc = about 62 lbs./cu. ft.).
rkr1970 10-14-05, 08:43 PM	Fabricate is not a combat spell by any stretch of the imagination. Well, not a tactical one - it may be useful in the strategic sense if you can buy the time for the caster to get the spell off. Consider the armor idea above. Cast it and reduce metal to a simple awkward plate, or make metal armor for your allies. It takes 1 round per cubic foot of any mineral, and metals are minerals. I've never really done the figures, but already fabricated materials tend to be bulky and stick out, thus increasing the overall volume. My personal measure is basically to round 10 pounds of metal armor into 1 cubic foot. This means there's not a single item of metal armor in the PHB that wouldn't take at least 3 rounds to remove using fabricate. Remove? I wouldn't remove it. I could fuse all of the joints in full plate with alot less than 1 cubic foot of the armor's own metal... After that full round, I'm only one Coup de Grace away fron victory, since the guy can't move a muscle to stop me...
scott644 10-14-05, 08:54 PM	Remove? I wouldn't remove it. I could fuse all of the joints in full plate with alot less than 1 cubic foot of the armor's own metal... After that full round, I'm only one Coup de Grace away fron victory, since the guy can't move a muscle to stop me... Question is, are we going to observe the spirit of the game, or munchkin our way around the RAW? Keeping this in mind, we're affecting the entire suit of armor to fabricate a form-fitting metal restraint. Considering this, we're also looking at the overall volume of the materials used. In this case, assuming we're dealing with an average human in metal armor, we're talking about a 1x2x4 foot space of starting materials - that's 8 rounds to perform the spell. Make this plate mail or full plate, and we're talking 1x2x6, or 12 rounds casting time and minimum 12th level.
psionichamster 10-14-05, 08:55 PM	fun things to fabricate: (seems like this topic is popping up a bunch...wizards all hitting 9th lvl at the same time are they?) *acid. lots and lots of acid. drop from handy flying aparatus (recommend black dragon or airship) *arrows/bolts/etc. cuz, ya' know, your smiths should be working on your indoor plumbing, not making arrowheads for your army) * siege weapons. especially if you use materials from the area you are besieging. you take from them, didn't have to carry all that mass around, and you still have siege weapons. *specialist tools. like forges, jeweler's tools, giant-sized lockpicks. stuff you wouldn't normally carry w/ you, but you may need at a moment's notice. *extra security. so, you hacked into a relatively safe area of the dungeon, but you busted down those doors to the area...fabricate up some steel/iron lattice work, and your buddies can spike them in, providing some much needed (and earned) spellcaster-shuteye *toys. c'mon...you throw a party, you need decorations, you cast fabricate, you have everything you could possibly want. in my mind, this is one of the coolest spells in the game, along w/ prestidigitation, telekinesis, and polymorph because they all give you such wide ranges of options, and because they are "classical" magic-user abilities. shapechanging, mind-over-matter'ing, always clean, and always w/ nice stuff. that's how i envision wizards, for the most part. (cleanliness optional) namaste' the hamster
rkr1970 10-14-05, 09:36 PM	Question is, are we going to observe the spirit of the game, or munchkin our way around the RAW? Keeping this in mind, we're affecting the entire suit of armor to fabricate a form-fitting metal restraint. Considering this, we're also looking at the overall volume of the materials used. In this case, assuming we're dealing with an average human in metal armor, we're talking about a 1x2x4 foot space of starting materials - that's 8 rounds to perform the spell. Make this plate mail or full plate, and we're talking 1x2x6, or 12 rounds casting time and minimum 12th level. Nope! You take the rondelle and stretch it into a single long bar that fuses itself to every piece it touches from armpit to groin, and beyond. You haven't modified very much material, but you've affected all of it. It not only immobilizes the poor sod, but leaves a nice hole for a dagger to slide in right between his ribs!
Kohdok 10-14-05, 10:35 PM	Fabricate can break a game world...completely. A major city has a single (1) "Fabricator". The sole source of taxation in the city is a small fee paid by craftsmen to use the Fabricator. It is a use activated item that requires nothing other than the skill to make the desired item, and the materials. With this item, a single smth can make roughly 2500 suits of Full Plate armor a day. That number could be higher, but you have to spend at least one round dumping steel in and one round pulling your armor out. Not to mention lunch and a nap. Apply the same to other professions, like Alchemists. An item like that would be At least Artifact or Demi-Artifact level at the very least for unlimited use of one 5th level spell. You'll see maybe ONE of those, IF anyone can create something so powerful. Don't forget the monstrous size of the Use Magic Device check that baby would need. Of course, making anything near instantly is only part of the fun. We can recycle too. Cracked, warped, mangled plate armor, is new again. Anything that can be made, can be fixed...instantly. No need to get new materials, and as long as the materials are chemically sound (or can be reclaimed by one of the above Alchemists) you can turn swords to plowshares, litterally, as needed. There are lower level spells with the same effect, such as mending. Then if you wanted to spread smaller Fabricators around, you could have recycling cisterns, where waste is instantly converted into safer, usable, materials. Trash becomes raw materials for the craftsmen to use at the fabricator. Again, it becomes an issue of how hard it would be to make something with an infinate use of "Fabricate". Then we have the nightmare of rapid prototyping. I've got this great idea for a repeating crossbow...nope, nope, nope..but...no...no, there we go. God help you if your campaign has gunpowder. Someone just wasted 6 spells for that one item, one that they can buy for a trifle nearly anywhere at that point... What about gunpowder? They'd have to gather the ingredients needed to make Gunpowder, first, before they make it.
Loren Pechtel 10-14-05, 10:52 PM	No, he's assuming that there are wizards of a high enough level who choose to use it. Which is a perfectly safe assumption. I mean, in the entire game world, will there not be one or two Wiz13 Dwarfs, at the very least? And since the answer is clearly yes, who is to say that some might not realise what they could do with Fabricate? They also need the requisite crafting skill, though.
WCH 10-14-05, 11:19 PM	Hmm... unlimited use 5th level spell wondrous item... priced according to DMG rules... 90,000 gp. How exactly is that artifact level? Formula is caster level * spell level * 2000 for a use activated item with unlimited charges.
rkr1970 10-14-05, 11:40 PM	Hmm... unlimited use 5th level spell wondrous item... priced according to DMG rules... 90,000 gp. How exactly is that artifact level? Formula is caster level * spell level * 2000 for a use activated item with unlimited charges. Ouch! Nice math... I WANT ONE OF THOSE!!!! 90,000 is a steal!
Furious D 18 10-15-05, 02:11 AM	Things like this have the potential to turn a fun game into a large headache. I wouldn't allow them to manipulate the armor of the opponent at all. The same wizard wanted to use Shrink Item on the opponent's full plate armor so that it would constrict him and then break as it got small enough and thin enough. "So you expect me to let you take 8 off his AC with one spell? I don't think so." I wanted to know what the D&D authors intended this spell to be for, not one of several ways that you could use it to ruin the game. This reminds me of the whole "Bag of Rats" thing I read about.
scott644 10-15-05, 09:13 AM	Nope! You take the rondelle and stretch it into a single long bar that fuses itself to every piece it touches from armpit to groin, and beyond. You haven't modified very much material, but you've affected all of it. It not only immobilizes the poor sod, but leaves a nice hole for a dagger to slide in right between his ribs! So in other words, you take a whole item that provides one effect, and change it into a whole other item that provides a completely different effect. Yup - that's a long casting time. Hmm... unlimited use 5th level spell wondrous item... priced according to DMG rules... 90,000 gp. How exactly is that artifact level? Formula is caster level * spell level * 2000 for a use activated item with unlimited charges. And also, by the RAW, this is not a set formula. The DM must gauge relative power level and worth, and adjust as necessary. In other words, unlimited use fabricate item = epic item at least (minor artifact level). Now I can see using it for unlimited use in specific purposes; an endless source of rope for instance, or a bowl where you put the materials in and wait a few minutes for the alchemical item to be produced, a smelter that takes raw ore and produces metal ingots, and so on. Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created. And this actually pretty much settles it. The original material, which costs the same as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created. You know what? A finished suit of armor in working condition is far and above the value of the broken suit of armor somebody wants to create; incorrect materials, try again. This is pretty much why finished goods can't really be changed very often by this spell. After all, if a player wanted to be this kind of jerk and munchkin this into an uber spell, the DM must balance it, and by the RAW the balance is provided.
rkr1970 10-15-05, 10:33 AM	So in other words, you take a whole item that provides one effect, and change it into a whole other item that provides a completely different effect. Yup - that's a long casting time. The whole rondelle, yes. A whole 8 inch round, 1/4 inch thick disk. And whether you weave it through other parts (over this one, under that one) or solder it, you ruin the armor. THAT'S why I don't like attended items being affected by this spell. And also, by the RAW, this is not a set formula. The DM must gauge relative power level and worth, and adjust as necessary. In other words, unlimited use fabricate item = epic item at least (minor artifact level). Now I can see using it for unlimited use in specific purposes; an endless source of rope for instance, or a bowl where you put the materials in and wait a few minutes for the alchemical item to be produced, a smelter that takes raw ore and produces metal ingots, and so on. Actually, it IS a set formula with the CAVEAT that the DM must use his own judgement and adjust accordingly. And this actually pretty much settles it. The original material, which costs the same as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created. You know what? A finished suit of armor in working condition is far and above the value of the broken suit of armor somebody wants to create; incorrect materials, try again. This is pretty much why finished goods can't really be changed very often by this spell. After all, if a player wanted to be this kind of jerk and munchkin this into an uber spell, the DM must balance it, and by the RAW the balance is provided.Huh???? So several pounds of steel are worth more than several pounds of steel? That's all armor is. You're not paying 1500 gold for 50 lbs of steel when you buy plate mail. You're paying for the craftsmanship that has been applied to the steel. The raw material, 50 lbs of steel is the same whether it's plate mail, a brick, or giant bubble. The mention of same quality precludes using this spell to remove baser metals from gold and the like. I thought THAT had already been settled.
Catra 10-15-05, 10:52 AM	Exactly. I'm almost positive it means "cost according to weight", not "market value". I have a question, though; can you turn one block of steel into two smaller blocks of steel with this spell?
rkr1970 10-15-05, 11:11 AM	Exactly. I'm almost positive it means "cost according to weight", not "market value". I have a question, though; can you turn one block of steel into two smaller blocks of steel with this spell? If they weigh the same, why not? The dimentions are smaller, but the total amount of material is the same.
scott644 10-15-05, 12:52 PM	The whole rondelle, yes. A whole 8 inch round, 1/4 inch thick disk. And whether you weave it through other parts (over this one, under that one) or solder it, you ruin the armor. THAT'S why I don't like attended items being affected by this spell. Ahh... so you're doing this while it's not being worn. That explains the viability of changing the entire set of useful armor into an entire suit-shaped cage. My point was this is not suitable for combat. You have all that time required for all that material after all. Actually, it IS a set formula with the CAVEAT that the DM must use his own judgement and adjust accordingly. Key word being "must." Thus the value, in the hands of any DM worth the title, will be minor artifact level at lowest. Huh???? So several pounds of steel are worth more than several pounds of steel? If you wish to munchkin it, yes. In point of fact, several dozen pounds of finely crafted steel armor is worth far more than several dozen pounds of unworked steel. A munchkin will of course argue otherwise. Your job as DM of course is not to allow them to succeed with that BS.
Catra 10-15-05, 05:13 PM	Well, if you could make two seperate objects out of one, could you make one object out of two? Like, say, Make two smaller gemstones into one bigger one? What would the value of the new gem be? Could you do this with cut/refined gems?
rkr1970 10-15-05, 05:26 PM	Ahh... so you're doing this while it's not being worn. That explains the viability of changing the entire set of useful armor into an entire suit-shaped cage. My point was this is not suitable for combat. You have all that time required for all that material after all. No... nevermind. Go back and read my posts. If you're not able to follow what I've said, read it slowly :rolleyes: Key word being "must." Thus the value, in the hands of any DM worth the title, will be minor artifact level at lowest. It could NEVER be made an artifact simply because artifacts, by definition produce effects that spells short of a wish or miracle cannot. This very obviously is not of that calibur, as all it does IS CAST A SPELL. At best, though never in my game, it could be made several times more expensive. Remeber: Acts like a spell-not an artifact...Goes beyond a spell-Artifact. Oh, and to keep you from wasting key stroke. YES it goes for minor as well as major artifacts. If you wish to munchkin it, yes. In point of fact, several dozen pounds of finely crafted steel armor is worth far more than several dozen pounds of unworked steel. A munchkin will of course argue otherwise. Your job as DM of course is not to allow them to succeed with that BS Finely crafted steel has a different molecular structure than an ingot? WOW I'll call the Nobnel commitee about your discovery. You can tell them that the person who called is a munchkin because he disagrees with your misinterpretations.... (Sorry if that word is too long for you)
rkr1970 10-15-05, 05:32 PM	Well, if you could make two seperate objects out of one, could you make one object out of two? Like, say, Make two smaller gemstones into one bigger one? What would the value of the new gem be? Could you do this with cut/refined gems? They would have to be the same material, but I don't see why not, since you can turn a grove of trees into a bridge. It doesn't say that the trees have to be the same species, just wood, so theoretically, all types of corundum, like sappphires & rubies, since the difference is actually just the impurities in the crystaline matrix. Cut gems are the same MATERIAL as an uncut stone, so yes, you could, and it would probably be better, since uncut gems can have a lot of other materials on them.
cypherx 10-15-05, 06:07 PM	i used it to turn adamantium portcullises into adamantium bars which i later sold. it also removed the obstacles. (i am the king of looters)
Catra 10-15-05, 06:51 PM	I wish I had heard of this spell sooner. :(
Simetrical 10-16-05, 12:51 AM	Hmm... unlimited use 5th level spell wondrous item... priced according to DMG rules... 90,000 gp. How exactly is that artifact level? Formula is caster level * spell level * 2000 for a use activated item with unlimited charges.On the other hand, you have to account for the cost of the material component for a hundred activations of fabricate, which is technically impossible, since the cost is variable. And magic item creation rules make no provision for the user supplying the material component for each activation, if you want to adhere rigorously to the guidelines in the rulebook. So by the RAW, whether this is creatable at all is up for debate. It could NEVER be made an artifact simply because artifacts, by definition produce effects that spells short of a wish or miracle cannot.Really? Where are you getting your definitions from? My DMG certainly doesn't mention anything like that. They would have to be the same material, but I don't see why not, since you can turn a grove of trees into a bridge. It doesn't say that the trees have to be the same species, just woodI don't follow. Presumably the bridge would be made of whatever types of wood the trees were, not some different type of wood of your choosing, no? The rules don't imply anything different. so theoretically, all types of corundum, like sappphires & rubies, since the difference is actually just the impurities in the crystaline matrix.Would you care to figure out what the Craft check would be to convert a ruby to a sapphire? What Craft branch would it be, anyway? If you can't do something with Craft no matter how long you take, it stands to reason that fabricate can't do it either, since the Craft check would be incalculable. As a rule of thumb, in fact, I would say that anything that can be done with a Craft check can be done with fabricate as well, and vice versa; that seems to be the intent of the spell.
rkr1970 10-16-05, 02:15 AM	On the other hand, you have to account for the cost of the material component for a hundred activations of fabricate, which is technically impossible, since the cost is variable. And magic item creation rules make no provision for the user supplying the material component for each activation, if you want to adhere rigorously to the guidelines in the rulebook. So by the RAW, whether this is creatable at all is up for debate. There is that. Nice catch. Really? Where are you getting your definitions from? My DMG certainly doesn't mention anything like that.That is originally a 1st Ed definition, but the current rules reflect this by saying the creation methods are beyond mortal knowledge. (I think they just wanted to prevent people from trying to make-up spells to duplicate artifacts, eh?) I don't follow. Presumably the bridge would be made of whatever types of wood the trees were, not some different type of wood of your choosing, no? The rules don't imply anything different. The example in the spell description mentions turning a grove of trees into a bridge. Presumably, there could be several different species of tree in a single grove. I wasn't suggesting the tree TYPE would be changed, just that they would be mixed in the bridge, thus making me wonder if "wood" is a generic enough material, or if you could have several different types of material, say wood and metal, and use them both in a single creation, such as spears. The confusion comes from the spell description, which says "material of one sort". Is that a single type of material? And if so, would "one sort" be any organic material, any plant material, any wood, or only Aspen pine? It's not too clear on that point, is it? Also, if "one sort" is meant to be only one type of material, even if it's very broad types, such as organic material and mineral material, you couldn't make platemail with it, as the leather straps & padding are organic and the steel isn't. Would you care to figure out what the Craft check would be to convert a ruby to a sapphire? What Craft branch would it be, anyway? If you can't do something with Craft no matter how long you take, it stands to reason that fabricate can't do it either, since the Craft check would be incalculable. As a rule of thumb, in fact, I would say that anything that can be done with a Craft check can be done with fabricate as well, and vice versa; that seems to be the intent of the spell. You couldn't change a ruby into a sapphire simply because you lack the impurities needed, but I was suggesting that you could mix the two with a single casting since they're 99.999760% the same material. I would make a nice swirl or checker board pattern while using Craft (gem cutting) to give it extra brilliance and intricate facets. I'd guess it would fetch a pretty penny, too. But yes, the original idea was probably to allow parties to make things without months of down time filled with craft checks.
pmurray@bigpond.com 10-16-05, 07:45 AM	I'd say that an unlimited use "fabricate" item would only be able to fabricate one particular thing, or perhaps a couple of related spells. 90,000 gp is not "a steal" - it's a hell of a lot of money. So it might be a reasonable investment for someone with a big army to have an item that - if you feed metal into it - will stamp out swords or maybe plate armour pieces. But the swords would be standard mass-produced rubbish.
rkr1970 10-16-05, 09:22 AM	I'd say that an unlimited use "fabricate" item would only be able to fabricate one particular thing, or perhaps a couple of related spells. 90,000 gp is not "a steal" - it's a hell of a lot of money. So it might be a reasonable investment for someone with a big army to have an item that - if you feed metal into it - will stamp out swords or maybe plate armour pieces. But the swords would be standard mass-produced rubbish. And $90,000,000 is a lot of money, but if Bill Gates offered to sell Microsoft for the much, it would be a steal, also... Feed metal into it... I like that. I envision a huge sausage grinder type device on wheels, with a hopper on top, a 2x2x2 foot drawer on one side, and a chute on the other. The thing is 4 feet tall and about 3 feet across. You place an example of what you want made in the drawer, then pour the material into the top, which has to be the same as the original object. As you crank the handle, copies pour down the chute. They aren't the best copies, but they're close. If a regular sword is copied, it may have to be sharpened before being used and a few won't even useable. If a master work weapon is put in, a few might be master work, a few might be junk, but most are ready for use with a little work. (A d20 determines quality of an object replicated, with a 1 being badly flawed, and a 20 being a perfect copy. The higher the number, the better the reproduction) It would be awesome! It's like a common item xerox machine! Perfect for war, not so perfect for dragging through dungeons.
scott644 10-16-05, 11:54 AM	Go back and read my posts. If you're not able to follow what I've said, read it slowly I read them clearly enough the first time. You just haven't said anything that doesn't support the munchkin, is all. It could NEVER be made an artifact simply because artifacts, by definition produce effects that spells short of a wish or miracle cannot. Well, you're trying. Still wrong. Epic magic items are effectively minor artifacts, and many of them simply allow extremely powerful effects that can be accomplished without requiring wish or miracle. Consider the +6 weapon or armor, the items of +6 to all 6 abilities, and the energy immunity rings; all possible without using wish or miracle, but all so powerful they can't be made prior to that point. An unlimited use, does anything you want, fabrication engine, is such a powerful item. Finely crafted steel has a different molecular structure than an ingot? In point of fact it generally does. The smelting process preps it, and the process required to forge it into a specific item changes it. Or have you forgotten how steel was made in the first place? That being said, finely crafted steel WILL be more expensive thus ineligible. Again, you're supporting munchkinism here. Would you care to figure out what the Craft check would be to convert a ruby to a sapphire? What Craft branch would it be, anyway? If you can't do something with Craft no matter how long you take, it stands to reason that fabricate can't do it either, since the Craft check would be incalculable. As a rule of thumb, in fact, I would say that anything that can be done with a Craft check can be done with fabricate as well, and vice versa; that seems to be the intent of the spell. I agree. The gem example, let's say ruby to emerald - both are beryl. but it's still not possible. Now, uncut rubies to cut stones, would be possible using craft(gemcutting or something else appropriate). But changing or mixing types? That's polymorph territory there. And yes, anything that requires a craft check applies; converting a suit of armor into a trap, is a prime example. So long is we bear in mind it's the whole suit and not itty-bitty pieces of the item.
Simetrical 10-16-05, 12:44 PM	There is that. Nice catch. And another thing: who makes the Craft checks? You can't have the item creator make checks in every conceivable Craft skill upon creating the item, surely. That is originally a 1st Ed definition, but the current rules reflect this by saying the creation methods are beyond mortal knowledge. (I think they just wanted to prevent people from trying to make-up spells to duplicate artifacts, eh?)The creation methods are beyond mortal knowledge, but you can still create a magic item that exactly reflects or exceeds an artifact's abilities but is still not an artifact (at least, for certain artifacts). The parts that people can't replicate are the unique properties of artifacts, specifically the ways they interact with certain magical effects such as antimagic field and Mordenkainen's disjunction. Of course, certain artifacts may have other effects that aren't replicable, but they don't have to. The example in the spell description mentions turning a grove of trees into a bridge. Presumably, there could be several different species of tree in a single grove. I wasn't suggesting the tree TYPE would be changed, just that they would be mixed in the bridge, thus making me wonder if "wood" is a generic enough material, or if you could have several different types of material, say wood and metal, and use them both in a single creation, such as spears. The confusion comes from the spell description, which says "material of one sort". Is that a single type of material? And if so, would "one sort" be any organic material, any plant material, any wood, or only Aspen pine? It's not too clear on that point, is it? Also, if "one sort" is meant to be only one type of material, even if it's very broad types, such as organic material and mineral material, you couldn't make platemail with it, as the leather straps & padding are organic and the steel isn't.Interesting points. You'd have to add the straps and padding by hand, I should think, yes. You couldn't change a ruby into a sapphire simply because you lack the impurities needed, but I was suggesting that you could mix the two with a single casting since they're 99.999760% the same material.Ah, I see your point. Sure, I'd allow that, they are basically the same thing. 90,000 gp is not "a steal" - it's a hell of a lot of money.Not that much. About the starting wealth of a 12th-level character. It wouldn't quite be pocket change for a king, but it certainly would be far from a big-ticket item. The gem example, let's say ruby to emerald - both are beryl.Actually, rubies are corundum. Aquamarine and morganite are other examples of beryl.
scott644 10-16-05, 04:52 PM	Actually, rubies are corundum. Aquamarine and morganite are other examples of beryl. Ahh. Good point. I'm a little rusty in my gemology.
Loren Pechtel 10-16-05, 09:07 PM	Hmm... unlimited use 5th level spell wondrous item... priced according to DMG rules... 90,000 gp. How exactly is that artifact level? Formula is caster level * spell level * 2000 for a use activated item with unlimited charges. It also says that if you expect to use it more than 5/day that the formula isn't good. As a general rule unlimited/uncharged/instantaneous items should be prohibited. Only permit those which you can see are not a problem.
Loren Pechtel 10-16-05, 09:11 PM	Well, if you could make two seperate objects out of one, could you make one object out of two? Like, say, Make two smaller gemstones into one bigger one? What would the value of the new gem be? Could you do this with cut/refined gems? No. The spell only permits what can be accomplished by non-magical means. You must make the same craft check you would have to if you didn't have the spell. All it does is speed things up considerably. What's the DC to combine two gems into one bigger one?
rkr1970 10-16-05, 09:43 PM	No. The spell only permits what can be accomplished by non-magical means. You must make the same craft check you would have to if you didn't have the spell. All it does is speed things up considerably. What's the DC to combine two gems into one bigger one? That's all the spell in your book pemits? Wow! Save that book. It's different from all the others and is therefore a collectors item! As far as combining the two different varieties of the mineral, in this case ruby and sapphire, there would be no craft check unless you were trying to form it into a particular shape. Forming a swirrly pattern in your mind HAS to be easier than mentally braiding hemp into rope. Now if you wanted to make it round, or give it 1000 facets, or shape it like a flower, THOSE would have DCs, the last one probably close to 30 for even a simple flower
Kyle_the_DM 10-18-05, 11:57 AM	Okay, let me put it this way. Work out the craft time on a suit of Adamantine Full Plate, using normal crafting rules. Now compare how long it takes to craft the same armor using Fabricate. If memory serves, its like 30 years versus 1 full round. Trust me, nobody but the most masochistic dwarf on the PLANET actually crafts adamantine the old fashioned way. Probably already pointed out but... According to craft rules it should work out like this: Craft: 1,500gp(full plate) + 15,000gp (adamantine) = 16,500gp * 10 = 165,000sp DC:18 (10 +AC bonus) Minimum work per week:324 (min result 18 * DC 18, according to craft rules) Weeks needed:509 (509.25 rounded to nearest full week) Years needed: 10 (509/52 = 9.79, rounded to nearest full year) While it isn't quite 30 years, you can see how fabricate is useful. I, as a DM, would actually make a player spend 10 years crafting a suit of armor if he wanted it bad enough. That makes special items more special and players appreciate what they get more than they would if it only took a few days to make the armor. Also, realizing the crafting times makes character aging come into play if they want to craft their own items.