Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xalxika 08-29-03, 09:26 AM	I know you've all seen the splat books, read through the PHB, and maybe have some other books like Relics and Rituals from SSS, or maybe FR, RL, and GH, and so you know that with only a few books there can be well over 500 spell. If you own a good porition of the books that have spells there can be thousands. How is a Sorcerer suppose to be able to choose only a select number of spells and use them day by day when there are so many to choose from? The Sorcerer, IMO, is the one class that needs to be thought out more than any other class. A fighter chooses a weapon to have Improved Critical in, but he can use other weapons. A Wizard buys TONS of spells and prepares the wrong ones on a given day. Oh well, better luck tomorrow. A Cleric doesn't have to prepare Cure spells in order to use them. And what's so hard about choosing a good domain when only 3 or 4 are given for any one Deity? You can see where it's all going, and it doesn't look good for the Sorcerer. I don't know, maybe there's a balancing factor I'm not seeing, but I don't see the extra spells/day equalling out to the bonus feats and nearly endless list of spells the Wizard has. What does everyone else think? Xal
Nerfix 08-29-03, 09:29 AM	It's called The Art of Picking Spells You Realy Need. And Sorceror gets more spells for free than a Wizard. Wizard has to prepare spells.
ThatGuyDann 08-29-03, 09:46 AM	With Sorceror's you have to be VERY select with the spells you get, but the ability to cast without memorization is no minor boon. A sorceror should ALWAYS have spells that they can use in an encounter, and this is usually aided by metamagic feats, since they can add those spontaneously as well. However, overall, the sorceror is still less attractive than the wizard. The severe lack of different spells is fine if you're doing a hack and slash campaign, but over the years people have relied on wizard for more spells than fireball. Wizards can afford to get spells that seldom see use, but are extremely useful when needed. This is something a sorceror can not do. Futhermore, the bonus feats really help the wizard edge out the sorceror as far as party usefulness goes. Now this need not always be true, but you certainly have to squeeze every ounce of power out of a sorceror to get it to be better than a wizard. Good feat choices are all of them from the counterspelling branch, most metamagic's (Save of course, quicken). Item creation feats are not that useful to them, they don't have the spell capacity to make most. Multipurp spells have by and large been broken down, so get the ones that really count. Swapping has aided this, so you can actually get sleep at low levels when it is useful, and toss it after. Dispel magic and then later getting something else when you take Improved Dispel magic is critical for your usefulness to the party. Now if it is a combat heavy campaign, the sorceror is king. Blast spells galore and you will cast far more of them than the wizard. Now, PrC wise the sorceror tends to gain more than the wizard, but they also have a harder time taking them. I've given sorceror's Knowledge, the planes as a class skill to help in this.
Xalxika 08-29-03, 09:51 AM	I don't agree that the free spells factor in much balance to the power structure. But choosing spells you really need is hard to do when there are so many that you need. And even if it were to be done in the most efficient way, what happens when you go to another gaming group and use that same PC? Does the new DM like to run a lot of campaigns with more Fighters (week minds, thus spells like Feeblemind and Share Mind work well) when your last DM ran a lot of Fire vs. Ice so you have spells like Fireball and Freezing Curse? I understand this scenario may not happen very often, but it does. Or even if the same DM runs a campaign based on the elements of frie and ice (as above), but then decides to have a world war where the earth and air elementals take over. There are so many ways to put a Sorcerer at a disadvantage, whereas if the Wizard has the right information on what he/she will be fighting, they can prepare the right spells. Xal
Kalidor 08-29-03, 10:13 AM	If every sorcerer had the same spells then that would be a pretty dull class. You can make a combat sorcerer, you can make a sorcerer who does nothing but charm and dominate.. the possibilities are endless for the 'theme' a sorcerer can have. And since he has a limited number of spells, the player is forced to use a synergy between them rather than having a huge spell list like a wizard. Furthermore, sorcerers *can* use scrolls...
Furion Thamior 08-29-03, 10:17 AM	Well, now Sorcerors can swap some of their spells out whenever they gain a new level of spellcasting. Furthermore, there is a nonepic feat in Tome and Blood that lets them learn another spell. Also, if you're coming into a new group, chances are you want to use a new PC, or if you still want a sorceror, make a new one with similar stats: don't 'recycle'. Most DM want to see your stat rolls or discuss your character first anyways. You've pointed out some very obsurce circumstances with the elemental thing. I think you fail to see the whole point of the sorceror: he's a wizard that casts spells without preperation, and gets more spells per day than the wizard. The trade off is: he gets less spells than the Wizard. Maybe one or two more spells per level added, but NOT the unlimited scope of the Wizard. Also note, that the Wizard gets all the cantrips, 3+int mod (at 1st level), and 4 spells of every other level for free. All the rest he has to find and spend a fair amount of cash putting them into his spellbook - which brings me to the next point - the spellbook! If this is lost, a wizard can get seriously messed up unless they selected Spell Mastery or get crafty with spells and backup plans (though a second copy of the book costs MORE than the original!). A wizard, when he knows what's coming, will do far better than the sorceror. When unprepared, however, the sorceror does much better.
Chobemaster 08-29-03, 11:57 AM	Sorcerors, especially with energy substitution from T&B, are plenty flexible. A wizard really has only "pseudo-flexibility." On a given day, he's locked in to what he's prepared. If he takes a fireball and a lightning bolt, to be "flexible" then needs a 2nd lightning bolt against a bunch of salamanders, he's worthless. Meanwhile, the sorceror is using multiple lightning bolts, or acidballs if you allow the T&B feats.
L33t Angel 08-29-03, 12:14 PM	A simple means is for the DM to restrict initial spells chosen per level to ones from the PHB. The DM can then introduce other spells through scrolls, spellbooks, and other items discovered. I the Sorc. wants any of these spells he can do that thing that you use a spell to learn a non-standard spell.
Adrez Nesnsid 08-29-03, 12:17 PM	I had an idea a while ago for a feat that would allow a sorcerer to keep a spellbook like a wizard but still cast their spells spontaneously. Basically, the idea of the feat would be that the sorcerer could keep spells, in addition to their regular spells known, in a spellbook, but they could only use a certain number of spells out of the spellbook per day, which would also count against their regular total of spells per day, AND, to keep it balanced, to cast any spell from the spellbook, they would have to read from the spellbook at the time of casting, and all casting times for spells cast out of the spellbook would be increased 150 fold (so it would take 15 minutes to cast a 1 action spell, or a minute and a half to cast feather fall. They would also need the "Arcane Preparation" feat from "Tome and Blood", Int 12+, and 3 ranks of Spellcraft as prerequisites. It would be difficult to use but it would still reduce the cheapening of a sorcerer's spell selection that comes from having more spells to choose from.
Xalxika 08-29-03, 05:18 PM	Well, I'm not saying that the Sorcerer should have access to every spell like the Wizard can with the right funds. I'm saying that the Sorcerer should have more spells known than what they are given in some form. I really like the spellbook idea with the 150 fold casting time. This would allow them to have extra spells without having to use scrolls all the time. This would also allow them new spells without completely giving them all spells (going by practical mean). Obviously a Sorcerer won't choose Call Lightning for their spellbook unless they (and their party) are patient enough to wait 1500 minutes (25 hours). This would also require the Endurance feat, which Sorcs don't want or need, and simultaneous Fortitude saves along with Concentration checks. In addition, it is a House Rule that characters must sleep 1/2 of the amount of time they are awake (i.e. 8 hours sleep for being up 16 hours). And I rule that a character can only stay up for 16 hours plus their Con modifier (min 16 for easier travel with the party). Obviously a Sorcerer in my campaigns would not be able to do this without some help from other Sorcerers or Wizards as proxies. I digress. So is the spellbook idea something formidable to everyone else? Xal
Nephet 08-29-03, 05:39 PM	Burn me for this but I think the Sorcerer should figure out what sort of character he is first then choose the spells that fit that concept. Once the concept is clear, the spells will be easy to choose.
fenrisvulfe 08-29-03, 06:06 PM	Keep in mind that, according to the DMG, a variant rule can be used whereby Sorcerers can learn new spells by contacting an outsider coinciding with his or her alignment, and can be granted spells in return for favors. In my own campaign, where only sorcerers and no wizards exist, I have created a feat whereby a sorcerer can learn spells that he or she has observed being used in combat. It certainly takes more time on average, however, than it takes a wizard to decipher a scroll, but I feel it gives the sorcerer a little more flexibility in his spell list. I did design it to compensate for the lack of wizards in the campaign, however, as this world is relatively low-magic, or at least low-arcane magic. Other worlds might not be suited for this kind of capability.
Talcoram Cyndar 08-29-03, 07:12 PM	Several of us spent months discussing this and other aspects of the sorcerer class on the classes board. Our finished produced can be found in the 'Alternate SORCERER- Finaly Completed' thread in that forum. Take a look, any constructinve comments are welcome. Regarding your specific question/problem, the lack of spells known: One mechanism that was suggested but did not make it into the final version of our alt.sorcerer was an option for bonus spells known. Essentially, a sorcerer received a bonus to spells known based upon his charisma modifier. The catch was he had to pay a cost in x.p. of 1000x.p./spell level to learn a bonus spell. This way, the sorcerer could 'save' his bonus spells until he found a spell he really liked and wanted to add to his repritoire, even if he had already reached his maximum spells or that spell level. The x.p. cost was added so as to not make the ability too powerful. 5000 x.p. (same amount to cast a wish!) to learn a 5th level spell is a great sacrifice. With this mechanism for BSK, the sorcerer has the option of learning more spells, but dosen't have to. In addition, this removes the need for 'forgetting' a spell or spells (something I never really liked) in order to make your sorcerer a more versatile spellcaster. later... -TC
Xalxika 08-29-03, 10:26 PM	I like that rules basic concept, but yes, learning a level 5 spell would be wuite the sacrifice, let alone a 9th level spell. I'll have to look over the possibilities of that method, though. Thanks for the input. I'll have to check out your alternate sorcerer. Xal
cowdragon 08-30-03, 05:57 AM	I like the sorcerer as-is, but there are alot of problems with it too. The sorc is THE most powerful class in my opinion, but only if you choose wisely. I like the idea of knowing extra spells from good attributes, but then you risk outshining the wizard terribly. My variant sorcerer gets bonus spells based on charisma, but otherwise only knows 3 spells per level. I also give him a couple bonus feats and spell power(to raise his caster levels). The other thing I do is give him access to the spells at the same level as a wizard. This has so far worked out great. The starting sorc only gets 1 spell(+1 from cha bonus). By around 10th level they have spell power +1, two bonus feats, and only 4 spells per level. By 16-20th levels, they actually have around 5-6 1st level and second level spells, and 3 or 4 of other levels. So, they mimick the old 2ed wizards more in their power curve. Sucky at first, then super powerful later on. Kinda fun to play. The Cowdragon