Are these BBEGs to strong for my group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these BBEGs to strong for my group? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Onisama.de
01-25-06, 11:17 AM Hi there,

I recently created the BBEGs for my campaign and since this is my first time DMing (after playing one year with an excellent DM who now takes his turn as a player), I’m not sure wether these guys are to tough for my group.

Here’s the situation:

My group and I decided to do some powergaming (28 point buy, starting with magic items worth roughly 100.000gp per player) in an undead and aberration heavy campaign. There are currently three characters: A Lv.9 Dwarven Cleric, a Lv.9 Elan Psionic (telepath) and an Elf with Lv.6 Fighter/ Lv.2 Scout/ Lv.1 Dervish. An elf wizard of according level will soon join the group. They will go up quickly in level. I plan to have them reaching 20th level during the next 10 or so sessions but I actually don’t want them to advance to epic levels.

Now there’s the two BBEGs. They are both disciples of evil as they are fighting and plotting against each other in the name of their favorite archdevils (see BoVD*).

The first one is a Vampire with Lv.8 Monk/ Lv. 4 Disciple of Asmodeus. His stats are STR18, DEX16, INT16, WIS18, CHA14 and his Class and Feats support his vampiric qualities as he is an excellent melee combatant and grappler. Other stats that are of interest: AC27, HP86, protected against some psionic powers via items.
What might make this combat a bit easier for the players is the fact that the Fighter has a Silver Scimitar +2, a weapon he is extremely skilled with.

Now, the true and final BBEG is an Illithilich, or Mindflayer Lich to use a more popular term. He has Lv.8 Sorcerer/Lv.6 Disciple of Mephistopheles. His stats are STR12, DEX16, INT25, WIS18, CHA32. He is extremely intelligent, highly skilled at using any “social” skill and has recently “attracted” lots of servants by enslaving a whole village. Some of his stats: AC28, HP159, Power Resistance39, Fire Resistance20.
He also owns two mighty items: a Harrow Rod (BoVD*) that can deal 9d6 acid damage three times per day without using charges and a Vile Spell Ring (also BoVD*) that prevents wounds dealt by his spells to be healed normally.

If you want any further information, you can look up the information on the Lich and Vampire template and on the Illithid’s racial traits in the Monster Manual or simply ask me.

Any help on judging the power of these BBEGs is highly appreciated. If any of you could take the time, I could also send you the Character Sheets via mail.

Maybe some of you could also give some non-specific tips such as how to calculate CRs for such things and how to put them in relation to a stronger-than-usual group.

Thanks for reading,
Onisama.

*I allow and use myself the following books in my game (listed for reference):
Core Set 3.5 (PHB, MM, DMG), Libris Mortis (LM), Lords of Madness (LoM), Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH), Book of Vile Darkness (BoVD), Heroes of Horror (HoH), Heroes of Battle (HoB), the Complete Series (CD, CAD, CAR, CW), Weapons of Legacy (WoL), Races of the Dragon (RoD), Spell Compendium (SC), Aasimar and Tiefling (AaT), Dungeon Master’s Guide II (DMG2), Monster Manual II and III (MM2, MM3), Fiend Folio (FF), Parts of Unearthed Arcana (UA).
Additionally, any material from the Eberron Campaign Setting is allowed (ECS, MoE, RoE, EH, and so on)
Black Kitten
01-25-06, 11:25 AM Let me start by saying I thought I was powergaming with my lvl 11 group owning quite some money (I believe they are nearing 30k soon), but you owned me (I'm so ancient, I still write that with an 'o').

Anyway, I have to say: I don't know. I have thrown a CR16 encounter against my players and they did fine (<Yodaspeech> experienced players have I </Yodaspeech>). However, if you have regular players I would be careful. Just allow a few test-encounters with the BBEG's who obviously will believe (justified) they are stronger than the players atm. Test a little what kind of effectiveness they have and continue from that. Add or loose things that you feel make the BBEG unbeatable (Power Resistance / Spell Resistance, for example).

Hope that helps.

Also, if you get around to it, start DM'ing with a lvl 1 party. My former DM (Grumpy Wizard, see the MDMC#21) was so glad he wasn't doing my group at lvl 10, but level 1 (I had DM'ed before that, DM'ing again now).
Onisama.de
01-25-06, 11:31 AM Thanks for your reply. You reminded me of something:

I once did a test fight with the Fighter only when he didn't have his Dervish and Scout levels, yet (instead being Fighter9). He nearly killed a CR11 Giant alone!
I think that shows how good they are and that I can't count on CRs.

But what can I learn from that test concerning my BBEGs?

(And while im typing, I'm reminded of something else: The dwarf Cleric once scored a critical hit in a test fight - 80 or so damage... :rolleyes: )
Illion the Red
01-25-06, 11:47 AM My honest assessment:

Your BBEGs are toast - especially the vampire. You have a party of level 9 characters (with probably level 12 EQ) that you expect to advance quickly (10 levels in 10 sessions is obscenely fast - especially at 10+ level). This party should chew through your baddies in no time...unless they have significant allies/henchmen/cannon fodder to keep the PCs from cutting them to pieces.
Onisama.de
01-25-06, 12:09 PM unless they have significant allies/henchmen/cannon fodder to keep the PCs from cutting them to pieces.
Thanks for your comment.
I already had something like that in mind, but didn't end that thought, yet. The Vampire will propably work together with a group of other Disciples of Asmodeus who could keep the melee fighters at bay.
Additionally, the group has one serious problem: A priestess with one level as cleric is traveling with them and they really love her - to bad if she were a hostage... ;-)

Another question: Should I advance the BBEGs in level if they are really that weak? I want the battles to be great showdowns, not some short bloodshed...
jedi_unger
01-25-06, 12:45 PM Summary:

Lvl 9 Cleric, Psion, Fighter (ish), and Wizard
Insane! Wealth

Against something with 32 Charisma and 25 Intelligence.

If this wasn't so hack 'n' slash I'd wonder why the Lich would ever bother to engage anyone. Hack 'n' slash isn't bad, it is usually what I do, but I avoid numbers that big in mental stats. It should take something truely unexpected to surprise him, and his defense should be top notch.

On the other hand, Lich's are one of the games great recurring BBEG's. Just have his phylactery sequestered in the personal trophy room of a demi-god living on a negative energy plane where only undead can trod. That guy would make a great pet for a demi-god. That should ensure his revivial every 1d10 days until the PC's realize they need to muck up his realationship with said demi-god, or make a deal with someone who is undead and can steal from a demi-god. And for quite a while thereafter.

Unless of course the wizard starts with a ring of 3 wishes, and you let him wish for the thing.

On the other hand, your party should be able to crunch any Vampire once they have 400,000 gp worth of items.

BTW, what's up with the +2 Scimitar? :bigeyes: You gave them 100,000 gp each, and the big powerful magic item is a +2 Scimitar? What am I missing?
Illion the Red
01-25-06, 12:47 PM Thanks for your comment.
I already had something like that in mind, but didn't end that thought, yet. The Vampire will propably work together with a group of other Disciples of Asmodeus who could keep the melee fighters at bay.
Additionally, the group has one serious problem: A priestess with one level as cleric is traveling with them and they really love her - to bad if she were a hostage... ;-)

Another question: Should I advance the BBEGs in level if they are really that weak? I want the battles to be great showdowns, not some short bloodshed...

Take a step back and ask yourself what would make sense. Would the vampire (I'm fixated on the vampire for some reason) have another one or two vampires that he made for defense as well as a number of vampire spawn to keep any intruders at bay. With a 16 Intelligence, he's smart enough to fill his area with some sort of smoke so that he could (have to have the feat) quickly turn into or from gaseous form and be virtually invisible in the smoke.

Now that I think about it...if the party stumbles into a chamber filled with smoke (and vampires/spawn in gaseous form) they could be in for some serious hurting as the negative levels start pouring on.

As a particularly nasty tactic, I would have the vampires all pounce on the cleric in the surprise round. All of those negative levels would wipe out his high level spells (including restoration magic)before he even got a chance to cast them. The spawn would surround the wizard, hoping for an attack of opportunity or lucky hit. The rat swarms would also be useful in this regard.

If things start going bad for the vamps, they'd go gaseous and retreat to heal up. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Mind you, this is the ideal situation for the vamps and ups the ECL a bunch...
starfire311
01-25-06, 01:13 PM Let me start by saying I thought I was powergaming with my lvl 11 group owning quite some money (I believe they are nearing 30k soon), but you owned me (I'm so ancient, I still write that with an 'o').

So you are running a low treasure game he is running a high treasure one... I think the DMG recommends 66k GP at level 11.... he is closer to that than you are.

Anyway, I think your BBEGs will get beat on pretty good, the Vampire wont have a con score so will have low HP, I think the fighter might do a pretty good number on him, unless the vamp takes him out quick, the psion will have trouble cause of the psionic protection items.

Now when will they be fighting that illithilich thingy, that seems pretty dang strong for level 9s
Onisama.de
01-25-06, 01:30 PM Once again thanks for commenting.

Just have his phylactery sequestered in the personal trophy room of a demi-god living on a negative energy plane where only undead can trod. [...] what's up with the +2 Scimitar?
Well I guess that's the trick. This Scimitar got a magical +2 enhancement and has the property "speed". Additionally, it's a Weapon of Legacy. The players think it once belonged to some heroic paladin, but the truth is that this Scimitar belongs to the already mentioned Illithilich. He once destroyed a vampire with it (before he was a lich. and the vampire he destroyed was replaced by the one we already talked about above ;-) ). And he gave it willingly to the group because it contains his phylactery as a massive diamond which he wants them to protect - of course without them knowing.
And to top it all of, its an intelligent item that can read the player's thought without them knowing.
Is that worthy enough? :D

If you want to know more about the plot, I could very well elaborate - I like telling stories. ;-)

Unless of course the wizard starts with a ring of 3 wishes
I don't plan on doing such a thing. Although I gave them a huge amount of money, I want to keep it simple.
To give you some more insight, this is the most important and expensive equipment the group got:
Cleric: Full Plate +4, Thundering Dwarven Waraxe of Shocking Burst +1 (amazing name, btw), Belt of Giant Strength +4,
Fighter: Scimitar of Icy Burst +2, Scimitar of Speed +2 (see above), Mithril Chainshirt +3, Gloves of Dexterity +4
Psion: Crossbow of Psychokinetic Burst, Headband of Intellect +6, Third Eye of Concentration, Lots of Dorjes and Crystals

Now that I think about it...if the party stumbles into a chamber filled with smoke (and vampires/spawn in gaseous form) they could be in for some serious hurting as the negative levels start pouring on.
Good idea, but that has been done during our time together as group several times, so I don't want to use it yet again.

I would have the vampires all pounce on the cleric in the surprise round.
Sound about right. I think the only possible way for these BBEGs to stand a chance is to act as intelligently as possible, eh?

Now when will they be fighting that illithilich thingy, that seems pretty dang strong for level 9s
Please keep in mind that these two BBEGs will be fought late in the campaign. I actually planned on the vampire finally showing up around 16th to 18th and the Lich when they have reached their final level 20 (since I don't want them to progress into epic and end the campaign when the lich is gone, with them being legendary heroes).

So do I read your answers right in saying that I have to advance the vampire (or combine with cohorts) to make him dangerous and leave the Lich at where he is?
starfire311
01-25-06, 03:07 PM The illithilich is probably fine, the vampire you may want to advance some, but you will have a much better idea of your parties capabilities when they get ready to fight the. If the vampire seems a little weak throw in a few cohorts to create some chaos. I ussually shoot for CR = party level +(2-4) fopr BBEG types. Sometimes I'll go lower if I want to use a lot of minions

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Onisama.de 01-25-06, 11:17 AM	Hi there, I recently created the BBEGs for my campaign and since this is my first time DMing (after playing one year with an excellent DM who now takes his turn as a player), I’m not sure wether these guys are to tough for my group. Here’s the situation: My group and I decided to do some powergaming (28 point buy, starting with magic items worth roughly 100.000gp per player) in an undead and aberration heavy campaign. There are currently three characters: A Lv.9 Dwarven Cleric, a Lv.9 Elan Psionic (telepath) and an Elf with Lv.6 Fighter/ Lv.2 Scout/ Lv.1 Dervish. An elf wizard of according level will soon join the group. They will go up quickly in level. I plan to have them reaching 20th level during the next 10 or so sessions but I actually don’t want them to advance to epic levels. Now there’s the two BBEGs. They are both disciples of evil as they are fighting and plotting against each other in the name of their favorite archdevils (see BoVD). The first one is a Vampire with Lv.8 Monk/ Lv. 4 Disciple of Asmodeus. His stats are STR18, DEX16, INT16, WIS18, CHA14 and his Class and Feats support his vampiric qualities as he is an excellent melee combatant and grappler. Other stats that are of interest: AC27, HP86, protected against some psionic powers via items. What might make this combat a bit easier for the players is the fact that the Fighter has a Silver Scimitar +2, a weapon he is extremely skilled with. Now, the true and final BBEG is an Illithilich, or Mindflayer Lich to use a more popular term. He has Lv.8 Sorcerer/Lv.6 Disciple of Mephistopheles. His stats are STR12, DEX16, INT25, WIS18, CHA32. He is extremely intelligent, highly skilled at using any “social” skill and has recently “attracted” lots of servants by enslaving a whole village. Some of his stats: AC28, HP159, Power Resistance39, Fire Resistance20. He also owns two mighty items: a Harrow Rod (BoVD) that can deal 9d6 acid damage three times per day without using charges and a Vile Spell Ring (also BoVD) that prevents wounds dealt by his spells to be healed normally. If you want any further information, you can look up the information on the Lich and Vampire template and on the Illithid’s racial traits in the Monster Manual or simply ask me. Any help on judging the power of these BBEGs is highly appreciated. If any of you could take the time, I could also send you the Character Sheets via mail. Maybe some of you could also give some non-specific tips such as how to calculate CRs for such things and how to put them in relation to a stronger-than-usual group. Thanks for reading, Onisama. I allow and use myself the following books in my game (listed for reference): Core Set 3.5 (PHB, MM, DMG), Libris Mortis (LM), Lords of Madness (LoM), Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH), Book of Vile Darkness (BoVD), Heroes of Horror (HoH), Heroes of Battle (HoB), the Complete Series (CD, CAD, CAR, CW), Weapons of Legacy (WoL), Races of the Dragon (RoD), Spell Compendium (SC), Aasimar and Tiefling (AaT), Dungeon Master’s Guide II (DMG2), Monster Manual II and III (MM2, MM3), Fiend Folio (FF), Parts of Unearthed Arcana (UA). Additionally, any material from the Eberron Campaign Setting is allowed (ECS, MoE, RoE, EH, and so on)
Black Kitten 01-25-06, 11:25 AM	Let me start by saying I thought I was powergaming with my lvl 11 group owning quite some money (I believe they are nearing 30k soon), but you owned me (I'm so ancient, I still write that with an 'o'). Anyway, I have to say: I don't know. I have thrown a CR16 encounter against my players and they did fine (<Yodaspeech> experienced players have I </Yodaspeech>). However, if you have regular players I would be careful. Just allow a few test-encounters with the BBEG's who obviously will believe (justified) they are stronger than the players atm. Test a little what kind of effectiveness they have and continue from that. Add or loose things that you feel make the BBEG unbeatable (Power Resistance / Spell Resistance, for example). Hope that helps. Also, if you get around to it, start DM'ing with a lvl 1 party. My former DM (Grumpy Wizard, see the MDMC#21) was so glad he wasn't doing my group at lvl 10, but level 1 (I had DM'ed before that, DM'ing again now).
Onisama.de 01-25-06, 11:31 AM	Thanks for your reply. You reminded me of something: I once did a test fight with the Fighter only when he didn't have his Dervish and Scout levels, yet (instead being Fighter9). He nearly killed a CR11 Giant alone! I think that shows how good they are and that I can't count on CRs. But what can I learn from that test concerning my BBEGs? (And while im typing, I'm reminded of something else: The dwarf Cleric once scored a critical hit in a test fight - 80 or so damage... :rolleyes: )
Illion the Red 01-25-06, 11:47 AM	My honest assessment: Your BBEGs are toast - especially the vampire. You have a party of level 9 characters (with probably level 12 EQ) that you expect to advance quickly (10 levels in 10 sessions is obscenely fast - especially at 10+ level). This party should chew through your baddies in no time...unless they have significant allies/henchmen/cannon fodder to keep the PCs from cutting them to pieces.
Onisama.de 01-25-06, 12:09 PM	unless they have significant allies/henchmen/cannon fodder to keep the PCs from cutting them to pieces. Thanks for your comment. I already had something like that in mind, but didn't end that thought, yet. The Vampire will propably work together with a group of other Disciples of Asmodeus who could keep the melee fighters at bay. Additionally, the group has one serious problem: A priestess with one level as cleric is traveling with them and they really love her - to bad if she were a hostage... ;-) Another question: Should I advance the BBEGs in level if they are really that weak? I want the battles to be great showdowns, not some short bloodshed...
jedi_unger 01-25-06, 12:45 PM	Summary: Lvl 9 Cleric, Psion, Fighter (ish), and Wizard Insane! Wealth Against something with 32 Charisma and 25 Intelligence. If this wasn't so hack 'n' slash I'd wonder why the Lich would ever bother to engage anyone. Hack 'n' slash isn't bad, it is usually what I do, but I avoid numbers that big in mental stats. It should take something truely unexpected to surprise him, and his defense should be top notch. On the other hand, Lich's are one of the games great recurring BBEG's. Just have his phylactery sequestered in the personal trophy room of a demi-god living on a negative energy plane where only undead can trod. That guy would make a great pet for a demi-god. That should ensure his revivial every 1d10 days until the PC's realize they need to muck up his realationship with said demi-god, or make a deal with someone who is undead and can steal from a demi-god. And for quite a while thereafter. Unless of course the wizard starts with a ring of 3 wishes, and you let him wish for the thing. On the other hand, your party should be able to crunch any Vampire once they have 400,000 gp worth of items. BTW, what's up with the +2 Scimitar? :bigeyes: You gave them 100,000 gp each, and the big powerful magic item is a +2 Scimitar? What am I missing?
Illion the Red 01-25-06, 12:47 PM	Thanks for your comment. I already had something like that in mind, but didn't end that thought, yet. The Vampire will propably work together with a group of other Disciples of Asmodeus who could keep the melee fighters at bay. Additionally, the group has one serious problem: A priestess with one level as cleric is traveling with them and they really love her - to bad if she were a hostage... ;-) Another question: Should I advance the BBEGs in level if they are really that weak? I want the battles to be great showdowns, not some short bloodshed... Take a step back and ask yourself what would make sense. Would the vampire (I'm fixated on the vampire for some reason) have another one or two vampires that he made for defense as well as a number of vampire spawn to keep any intruders at bay. With a 16 Intelligence, he's smart enough to fill his area with some sort of smoke so that he could (have to have the feat) quickly turn into or from gaseous form and be virtually invisible in the smoke. Now that I think about it...if the party stumbles into a chamber filled with smoke (and vampires/spawn in gaseous form) they could be in for some serious hurting as the negative levels start pouring on. As a particularly nasty tactic, I would have the vampires all pounce on the cleric in the surprise round. All of those negative levels would wipe out his high level spells (including restoration magic)before he even got a chance to cast them. The spawn would surround the wizard, hoping for an attack of opportunity or lucky hit. The rat swarms would also be useful in this regard. If things start going bad for the vamps, they'd go gaseous and retreat to heal up. Lather, rinse, repeat. Mind you, this is the ideal situation for the vamps and ups the ECL a bunch...
starfire311 01-25-06, 01:13 PM	Let me start by saying I thought I was powergaming with my lvl 11 group owning quite some money (I believe they are nearing 30k soon), but you owned me (I'm so ancient, I still write that with an 'o'). So you are running a low treasure game he is running a high treasure one... I think the DMG recommends 66k GP at level 11.... he is closer to that than you are. Anyway, I think your BBEGs will get beat on pretty good, the Vampire wont have a con score so will have low HP, I think the fighter might do a pretty good number on him, unless the vamp takes him out quick, the psion will have trouble cause of the psionic protection items. Now when will they be fighting that illithilich thingy, that seems pretty dang strong for level 9s
Onisama.de 01-25-06, 01:30 PM	Once again thanks for commenting. Just have his phylactery sequestered in the personal trophy room of a demi-god living on a negative energy plane where only undead can trod. [...] what's up with the +2 Scimitar? Well I guess that's the trick. This Scimitar got a magical +2 enhancement and has the property "speed". Additionally, it's a Weapon of Legacy. The players think it once belonged to some heroic paladin, but the truth is that this Scimitar belongs to the already mentioned Illithilich. He once destroyed a vampire with it (before he was a lich. and the vampire he destroyed was replaced by the one we already talked about above ;-) ). And he gave it willingly to the group because it contains his phylactery as a massive diamond which he wants them to protect - of course without them knowing. And to top it all of, its an intelligent item that can read the player's thought without them knowing. Is that worthy enough? :D If you want to know more about the plot, I could very well elaborate - I like telling stories. ;-) Unless of course the wizard starts with a ring of 3 wishes I don't plan on doing such a thing. Although I gave them a huge amount of money, I want to keep it simple. To give you some more insight, this is the most important and expensive equipment the group got: Cleric: Full Plate +4, Thundering Dwarven Waraxe of Shocking Burst +1 (amazing name, btw), Belt of Giant Strength +4, Fighter: Scimitar of Icy Burst +2, Scimitar of Speed +2 (see above), Mithril Chainshirt +3, Gloves of Dexterity +4 Psion: Crossbow of Psychokinetic Burst, Headband of Intellect +6, Third Eye of Concentration, Lots of Dorjes and Crystals Now that I think about it...if the party stumbles into a chamber filled with smoke (and vampires/spawn in gaseous form) they could be in for some serious hurting as the negative levels start pouring on. Good idea, but that has been done during our time together as group several times, so I don't want to use it yet again. I would have the vampires all pounce on the cleric in the surprise round. Sound about right. I think the only possible way for these BBEGs to stand a chance is to act as intelligently as possible, eh? Now when will they be fighting that illithilich thingy, that seems pretty dang strong for level 9s Please keep in mind that these two BBEGs will be fought late in the campaign. I actually planned on the vampire finally showing up around 16th to 18th and the Lich when they have reached their final level 20 (since I don't want them to progress into epic and end the campaign when the lich is gone, with them being legendary heroes). So do I read your answers right in saying that I have to advance the vampire (or combine with cohorts) to make him dangerous and leave the Lich at where he is?
starfire311 01-25-06, 03:07 PM	The illithilich is probably fine, the vampire you may want to advance some, but you will have a much better idea of your parties capabilities when they get ready to fight the. If the vampire seems a little weak throw in a few cohorts to create some chaos. I ussually shoot for CR = party level +(2-4) fopr BBEG types. Sometimes I'll go lower if I want to use a lot of minions