Are these players lucky or bad DMing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these players lucky or bad DMing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SyWall
04-02-08, 11:55 PM Hey,

I have recently started DMing again, and in the last session the party of 5th level managed to take down a bandit lord (14th Level Hobgoblin Fighter) and then gain control of the left over bandits (9 1st level Hobgoblin/Human Warriors) by paying them quite well. (This party is evil)

I'm just wondering, is this bad DMing, lucky rolls (the barbarian did manage a couple crits)? Or has your players been basically able to do the same at same level?

The party consists of an Orc Barbarian/Fighter, Human Fighter, Human Rouge, Human Warlock.
theblackpiece
04-03-08, 12:26 AM What are their ability scores?
The_Black_Hand
04-03-08, 12:34 AM The 14th level Hobgoblin Fighter should have wiped the floor with them easily.
Demetri_Knighthawk
04-03-08, 12:36 AM lets see, just from the barbarian, lets say 5th level power attack with a scythe at 18 str (+4) he crits, for 2d4= 5 just for average, X4=20+8 for wielding scythe with 2 hands, +5 for powerattack. 33 if I did my math right, 140-33=107 about 1/4-1/5the the guys HP, and he crit more than once in the fight. and thats not if he scored 4&4 for the scythe (8x4=32+8+5=45 sliver more than 1/3 his HP)

now the fighter might be either a two weapon fighter, or possably a tripper/disarmer, either way him just standing there gives the rouge his constant flanking and AoO/sneak attack if its a tripper.

and the warlock is nasty with 1d8 a round, pluss nastyness(and point blank/precise shot if he was wise)

if they worked as a team, he might have gone down in 3 rounds with probably 1 player near death if the hobgoblin focused on just going after the warlock or rouge.

as for hiring the hob goblins, I see dangerous ripples forming. if 4 5th levels take down 1 14th level, can 9 1st level take down a 5th off by himself?
squidyak
04-03-08, 12:42 AM It could have been luck. What was the barbarian wielding? A crit from a raging barbarian with an 18 str and a +2 great axe can do up to 51 points of damage. If he was using full power attack the average damage for those two hits would be 165 points of damage. That's enough to drop a 14th level fighter. Throw in some sneak attacks and a couple fireballs and that hobgoblin is toast. It's a fight the PC's shouldn't have been able to win, but sometimes dice fall a little wonky.
squidyak
04-03-08, 12:44 AM lets see, just from the barbarian

Damn, jack moved.
Dragonsblood
04-03-08, 01:42 AM I think it's bad DMing for a 14th level character to have so little power. Only 9 level 1 minions? That's pathetic. How did this bad guy get so many levels? By weaving baskets?
Escef
04-03-08, 01:52 AM Given that all your players are using modest classes, I'd say that this 14th level hobgoblin was played poorly. Why wasn't he ripping them up with power attack? Or going the long haul with Improved Combat Expertise? At 14th level he's got 5 feats from HD and 8 fighter bonus feats. You mean to tell me that with 13 feats he didn't have it in him to kill PCs? Did he waste them all on Toughness? :confused:
MagickHobo
04-03-08, 02:54 AM Given that all your players are using modest classes, I'd say that this 14th level hobgoblin was played poorly. Why wasn't he ripping them up with power attack? Or going the long haul with Improved Combat Expertise? At 14th level he's got 5 feats from HD and 8 fighter bonus feats. You mean to tell me that with 13 feats he didn't have it in him to kill PCs? Did he waste them all on Toughness? :confused:

Indeed. OP, are you sure this was a Hobbo Fighter and a not a Hobbo Warrior? Without the bonuses from feats and items and such factored in, it's basically a punching bag with 98hp (average).
CrimsonDeath
04-03-08, 04:27 AM Did the nine bandit minions participate in the fight? If not, the fact that the bandit lord was outnumbered may have had something to do with it.

Aside from that, what sort of tactics was the group using? And what sort of tactics was the Hobgoblin using?
RobbyPants
04-03-08, 08:54 AM Obviously, with the randomness of dice rolls, and the fact that a natural 20 always hits, anything is possible. Still, it's quite unlikely.

I think luck could account for the party donig fairly well, but probably not winning. I think that if the DM softballs the players and doesn't play the hobgoblin to his potential, that that could help a lot. It was probably a combination of the two.

Realistically, any 5th level PC that gets charged by the hobgoblin (if he goes first) or takes a full attack (if he goes second) will probably die. Perhaps the barbarian could live through a single attack. Still, with feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Melee Weapon Mastery available, this guy should be getting +4 to hit and +8 damage from those alone. Combined with a high Str score, he can probably afford to do a full Power Attack, or close to it and still hit. Without feats to improve the Power Attack, he should be hitting for over 40 points of damage per hit (and that's a low estimate). Obviously, the DM probably didn't want to pwn his PCs this badly, but I'd expect a 14th level warrior (not even a fighter) to be hitting for between 20-30 damage per hit too.

One other thing to consider: what type of gear do the PCs have? If they are outfitted with lots of magic items, this will make them considerably more powerful than 5th level characters. What type of magic weapon does the barbarian have?

Damn, jack moved.
That's awesome! I didn't know anyone else said jack move. Have a :cookie:
SyWall
04-03-08, 01:09 PM The Barb's STR was 22, he was raging and using a masterwork Greataxe +1.

The hob fighter was a two weapon fighter. They had already killed off the higher level lackeys, these were notorious bandits who had raided a lot in the area, (that's why they were able to have the levels they had.. The way they killed him was by the warlock convincing the hobfighter to a fight to the death with the barb, winner takes all.

(The reason this was able to happen was because the hobfighter himself had hired the party in the past, and the Warlock had a great charisma score.)

Of course, being evil characters, the rest of the party joined in from behind and basically finished him off, while the barb was left left with negative hitpoints.

So, the hobfighter did have no problem with the barb himself, but the sneak attacks and eldrich blasts from behind is what basically finished him off. The fight lasted about 5 rounds. The rest of the lackeys joined in, but the rest of the party was able to take them, and then take control of the remaining. The barb is out for a session.

I knew they were going to fight dirty, but I still did not think they'd be able to take him. Just to add though, I did not put a great deal of thought into the hobfighter, I just made your average two-weapon fighter.
RobbyPants
04-03-08, 02:40 PM Well, it seems like the party's gear is about on par with where it should be.

If the hobgoblin fighter was a TWF, that's part of what lead to his downfall. Typcially, you get the most milage out of TWFing if you can get your per-attack damage up (Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, etc...). This would seriously hurt a fighter's damage output. I'm not saying that you should have designed him to totally pwn the players, but just that this 14th level NPC wasn't nearly as strong as what you'd expect from a 14th level PC.
Braithwaite
04-03-08, 05:23 PM lets see, just from the barbarian, lets say 5th level power attack with a scythe at 18 str (+4) he crits, for 2d4= 5 just for average, X4=20+8 for wielding scythe with 2 hands, +5 for powerattack. 33 if I did my math right, 140-33=107 about 1/4-1/5the the guys HP, and he crit more than once in the fight. and thats not if he scored 4&4 for the scythe (8x4=32+8+5=45 sliver more than 1/3 his HP)

Scythe Damage avg=5
Strength Damage +4 x1.5 (2 handed)=6
Power attack +5 x2 (2handed)=10
base damage =2d4+16 or 21 average

with Crit x4=8d4+64 or 84 average

However, you role the 2d4, 4 times, not once then multiply it by four, so he SHOULDN"T have done
8x4+64 or 96 maximum damage.

so anyway your barbarian should have done way more damage. 14th level fighters need better armor. On the other hand, the 5th level barbarian in this example lacks even a +1 weapon, so I guess it balances.
CheesieM0nkies
04-03-08, 06:59 PM Well firstly I'd say yes the players are lucky, and second no your not a bad DM. In fact, an adventure going like you said is a good thing, the encounter was close, strategy was used but the PCs pulled through.

Another note, it drives me crazy when ppl ask why NPCs are not optimized. Remeber in DnD everything revolves around the small group of adventurers. NPCs dont have to optimize themselves just because its better. DM meta0gaming is really a waste, and every player i know would rather kill a higher-CR because he had a specialty agaisnt them than a low CR because he was weak agaisnt them.

Now that i got that outa my system, remeber never to underestimate PCs. Like everyone alraedy said, one crit (d12+33 x3 = 102-150dmg) could drop out the fighter
Kuros81
04-03-08, 07:03 PM this 14th level NPC wasn't nearly as strong as what you'd expect from a 14th level PC.

And that's exactly fine. A 14th level hobgoblin needn't be optimized.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the DMing. The players played well.
Andrew
04-03-08, 10:05 PM Were you remembering that a natural twenty is only an automatic hit and threat, and not automatically confirmed as a crit?

As above, you roll damage with modifiers 4 times instead of multiplying by 4, which leads to more bell curve damage.
EvilCouch
04-03-08, 11:34 PM And that's exactly fine. A 14th level hobgoblin needn't be optimized.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the DMing. The players played well.I don't know, as a storytelling-style DM, I think 5 combat rounds to drop an arch-villain is too fast. I would have artificially extended the combat a couple rounds.
MagickHobo
04-04-08, 12:16 AM Well firstly I'd say yes the players are lucky, and second no your not a bad DM. In fact, an adventure going like you said is a good thing, the encounter was close, strategy was used but the PCs pulled through.

Another note, it drives me crazy when ppl ask why NPCs are not optimized. Remeber in DnD everything revolves around the small group of adventurers. NPCs dont have to optimize themselves just because its better. DM meta0gaming is really a waste, and every player i know would rather kill a higher-CR because he had a specialty agaisnt them than a low CR because he was weak agaisnt them.

Now that i got that outa my system, remeber never to underestimate PCs. Like everyone alraedy said, one crit (d12+33 x3 = 102-150dmg) could drop out the fighter

The enemies only need to be optimized as far as their relation to the party. If the DM didn't really care about the Hobbo or the party gaining control of some bandits, then what happened was fine. If the Hobbo was supposed to be a recurring villain or ally, then he could've at least had power attack, cleave, and a whole 'lotta toughness, if only for the durability to take on the party. The only thing that would make this a case of bad DMing is if they didn't learn from their mistakes (if they feel they made one).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SyWall 04-02-08, 11:55 PM	Hey, I have recently started DMing again, and in the last session the party of 5th level managed to take down a bandit lord (14th Level Hobgoblin Fighter) and then gain control of the left over bandits (9 1st level Hobgoblin/Human Warriors) by paying them quite well. (This party is evil) I'm just wondering, is this bad DMing, lucky rolls (the barbarian did manage a couple crits)? Or has your players been basically able to do the same at same level? The party consists of an Orc Barbarian/Fighter, Human Fighter, Human Rouge, Human Warlock.
theblackpiece 04-03-08, 12:26 AM	What are their ability scores?
The_Black_Hand 04-03-08, 12:34 AM	The 14th level Hobgoblin Fighter should have wiped the floor with them easily.
Demetri_Knighthawk 04-03-08, 12:36 AM	lets see, just from the barbarian, lets say 5th level power attack with a scythe at 18 str (+4) he crits, for 2d4= 5 just for average, X4=20+8 for wielding scythe with 2 hands, +5 for powerattack. 33 if I did my math right, 140-33=107 about 1/4-1/5the the guys HP, and he crit more than once in the fight. and thats not if he scored 4&4 for the scythe (8x4=32+8+5=45 sliver more than 1/3 his HP) now the fighter might be either a two weapon fighter, or possably a tripper/disarmer, either way him just standing there gives the rouge his constant flanking and AoO/sneak attack if its a tripper. and the warlock is nasty with 1d8 a round, pluss nastyness(and point blank/precise shot if he was wise) if they worked as a team, he might have gone down in 3 rounds with probably 1 player near death if the hobgoblin focused on just going after the warlock or rouge. as for hiring the hob goblins, I see dangerous ripples forming. if 4 5th levels take down 1 14th level, can 9 1st level take down a 5th off by himself?
squidyak 04-03-08, 12:42 AM	It could have been luck. What was the barbarian wielding? A crit from a raging barbarian with an 18 str and a +2 great axe can do up to 51 points of damage. If he was using full power attack the average damage for those two hits would be 165 points of damage. That's enough to drop a 14th level fighter. Throw in some sneak attacks and a couple fireballs and that hobgoblin is toast. It's a fight the PC's shouldn't have been able to win, but sometimes dice fall a little wonky.
squidyak 04-03-08, 12:44 AM	lets see, just from the barbarian Damn, jack moved.
Dragonsblood 04-03-08, 01:42 AM	I think it's bad DMing for a 14th level character to have so little power. Only 9 level 1 minions? That's pathetic. How did this bad guy get so many levels? By weaving baskets?
Escef 04-03-08, 01:52 AM	Given that all your players are using modest classes, I'd say that this 14th level hobgoblin was played poorly. Why wasn't he ripping them up with power attack? Or going the long haul with Improved Combat Expertise? At 14th level he's got 5 feats from HD and 8 fighter bonus feats. You mean to tell me that with 13 feats he didn't have it in him to kill PCs? Did he waste them all on Toughness? :confused:
MagickHobo 04-03-08, 02:54 AM	Given that all your players are using modest classes, I'd say that this 14th level hobgoblin was played poorly. Why wasn't he ripping them up with power attack? Or going the long haul with Improved Combat Expertise? At 14th level he's got 5 feats from HD and 8 fighter bonus feats. You mean to tell me that with 13 feats he didn't have it in him to kill PCs? Did he waste them all on Toughness? :confused: Indeed. OP, are you sure this was a Hobbo Fighter and a not a Hobbo Warrior? Without the bonuses from feats and items and such factored in, it's basically a punching bag with 98hp (average).
CrimsonDeath 04-03-08, 04:27 AM	Did the nine bandit minions participate in the fight? If not, the fact that the bandit lord was outnumbered may have had something to do with it. Aside from that, what sort of tactics was the group using? And what sort of tactics was the Hobgoblin using?
RobbyPants 04-03-08, 08:54 AM	Obviously, with the randomness of dice rolls, and the fact that a natural 20 always hits, anything is possible. Still, it's quite unlikely. I think luck could account for the party donig fairly well, but probably not winning. I think that if the DM softballs the players and doesn't play the hobgoblin to his potential, that that could help a lot. It was probably a combination of the two. Realistically, any 5th level PC that gets charged by the hobgoblin (if he goes first) or takes a full attack (if he goes second) will probably die. Perhaps the barbarian could live through a single attack. Still, with feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Melee Weapon Mastery available, this guy should be getting +4 to hit and +8 damage from those alone. Combined with a high Str score, he can probably afford to do a full Power Attack, or close to it and still hit. Without feats to improve the Power Attack, he should be hitting for over 40 points of damage per hit (and that's a low estimate). Obviously, the DM probably didn't want to pwn his PCs this badly, but I'd expect a 14th level warrior (not even a fighter) to be hitting for between 20-30 damage per hit too. One other thing to consider: what type of gear do the PCs have? If they are outfitted with lots of magic items, this will make them considerably more powerful than 5th level characters. What type of magic weapon does the barbarian have? Damn, jack moved. That's awesome! I didn't know anyone else said jack move. Have a :cookie:
SyWall 04-03-08, 01:09 PM	The Barb's STR was 22, he was raging and using a masterwork Greataxe +1. The hob fighter was a two weapon fighter. They had already killed off the higher level lackeys, these were notorious bandits who had raided a lot in the area, (that's why they were able to have the levels they had.. The way they killed him was by the warlock convincing the hobfighter to a fight to the death with the barb, winner takes all. (The reason this was able to happen was because the hobfighter himself had hired the party in the past, and the Warlock had a great charisma score.) Of course, being evil characters, the rest of the party joined in from behind and basically finished him off, while the barb was left left with negative hitpoints. So, the hobfighter did have no problem with the barb himself, but the sneak attacks and eldrich blasts from behind is what basically finished him off. The fight lasted about 5 rounds. The rest of the lackeys joined in, but the rest of the party was able to take them, and then take control of the remaining. The barb is out for a session. I knew they were going to fight dirty, but I still did not think they'd be able to take him. Just to add though, I did not put a great deal of thought into the hobfighter, I just made your average two-weapon fighter.
RobbyPants 04-03-08, 02:40 PM	Well, it seems like the party's gear is about on par with where it should be. If the hobgoblin fighter was a TWF, that's part of what lead to his downfall. Typcially, you get the most milage out of TWFing if you can get your per-attack damage up (Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, etc...). This would seriously hurt a fighter's damage output. I'm not saying that you should have designed him to totally pwn the players, but just that this 14th level NPC wasn't nearly as strong as what you'd expect from a 14th level PC.
Braithwaite 04-03-08, 05:23 PM	lets see, just from the barbarian, lets say 5th level power attack with a scythe at 18 str (+4) he crits, for 2d4= 5 just for average, X4=20+8 for wielding scythe with 2 hands, +5 for powerattack. 33 if I did my math right, 140-33=107 about 1/4-1/5the the guys HP, and he crit more than once in the fight. and thats not if he scored 4&4 for the scythe (8x4=32+8+5=45 sliver more than 1/3 his HP) Scythe Damage avg=5 Strength Damage +4 x1.5 (2 handed)=6 Power attack +5 x2 (2handed)=10 base damage =2d4+16 or 21 average with Crit x4=8d4+64 or 84 average However, you role the 2d4, 4 times, not once then multiply it by four, so he SHOULDN"T have done 8x4+64 or 96 maximum damage. so anyway your barbarian should have done way more damage. 14th level fighters need better armor. On the other hand, the 5th level barbarian in this example lacks even a +1 weapon, so I guess it balances.
CheesieM0nkies 04-03-08, 06:59 PM	Well firstly I'd say yes the players are lucky, and second no your not a bad DM. In fact, an adventure going like you said is a good thing, the encounter was close, strategy was used but the PCs pulled through. Another note, it drives me crazy when ppl ask why NPCs are not optimized. Remeber in DnD everything revolves around the small group of adventurers. NPCs dont have to optimize themselves just because its better. DM meta0gaming is really a waste, and every player i know would rather kill a higher-CR because he had a specialty agaisnt them than a low CR because he was weak agaisnt them. Now that i got that outa my system, remeber never to underestimate PCs. Like everyone alraedy said, one crit (d12+33 x3 = 102-150dmg) could drop out the fighter
Kuros81 04-03-08, 07:03 PM	this 14th level NPC wasn't nearly as strong as what you'd expect from a 14th level PC. And that's exactly fine. A 14th level hobgoblin needn't be optimized. I don't think there was anything wrong with the DMing. The players played well.
Andrew 04-03-08, 10:05 PM	Were you remembering that a natural twenty is only an automatic hit and threat, and not automatically confirmed as a crit? As above, you roll damage with modifiers 4 times instead of multiplying by 4, which leads to more bell curve damage.
EvilCouch 04-03-08, 11:34 PM	And that's exactly fine. A 14th level hobgoblin needn't be optimized. I don't think there was anything wrong with the DMing. The players played well.I don't know, as a storytelling-style DM, I think 5 combat rounds to drop an arch-villain is too fast. I would have artificially extended the combat a couple rounds.
MagickHobo 04-04-08, 12:16 AM	Well firstly I'd say yes the players are lucky, and second no your not a bad DM. In fact, an adventure going like you said is a good thing, the encounter was close, strategy was used but the PCs pulled through. Another note, it drives me crazy when ppl ask why NPCs are not optimized. Remeber in DnD everything revolves around the small group of adventurers. NPCs dont have to optimize themselves just because its better. DM meta0gaming is really a waste, and every player i know would rather kill a higher-CR because he had a specialty agaisnt them than a low CR because he was weak agaisnt them. Now that i got that outa my system, remeber never to underestimate PCs. Like everyone alraedy said, one crit (d12+33 x3 = 102-150dmg) could drop out the fighter The enemies only need to be optimized as far as their relation to the party. If the DM didn't really care about the Hobbo or the party gaining control of some bandits, then what happened was fine. If the Hobbo was supposed to be a recurring villain or ally, then he could've at least had power attack, cleave, and a whole 'lotta toughness, if only for the durability to take on the party. The only thing that would make this a case of bad DMing is if they didn't learn from their mistakes (if they feel they made one).