Are these too cheap? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these too cheap? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SionofDarkness
08-18-05, 10:34 PM I figured this should go here, since it's a DM quest concern. If somebody feels it would be better in the Players board, go ahead and move it.

My DM is just starting out, and he put a few incentives on our quest. We've been playing for a while, but he decided to DM a quest with all new characters.

Here are his incentives, copy and pasted from our board...

"That's right, there are incentives to this quest...

Ok, you guys are a part of a consolidated armory "guild", per se. You guys are able to trade in your weapons, armors, shields (nothing else) for their full cost and able to upgrade with the subsequent gold costs.

Example:

Normally, if you want a +6 keen longsword instead of a +5 (boring) longsword, you need to trade in your lonsword at 1/2 price and pay up a total of 47,000 gold.

Now, this same transaction can be completed for (a paltry) 22,000 gold.

Bonus features:

The armor cost is on me! I pay the tab for any armor you wish to buy! But, the catch (you got to love catches) is that its going to be gradual: every level after level 5, you get a +1 enhancement to armor: thus, you will reach +10 armor at level 15. In other words, you all start off with +1 armor.

BTW, the armor material is also on me...so if you want mithril chain shirt (rierevin) you've got it!"

I say they're too cheap. Am I totally wrong, or what?

EDIT: He says its because we suck with money. He also said that in returen for these things, he would deduct gold as a price for these incentives. Which I find to mean that he's upgrading our stuff for us because he feels we cant do it right.
Citizen Fry
08-18-05, 10:40 PM I hate when the DM tries to do things for me. I'd rather figure it out myself.

Usually, if you're adding just adding enhancements (upgrading +5 to +6 keen in your example) you just pay the difference anyway, which is effectively the same as trading in the old one for full price. Although getting full price trade-ins is still a good deal, for all the recovered magical gear you don't want.

If he's buying material for you for free, give everyone mythril or adamantine armor, load up your quivers with a variety of silver/adamantine/cold iron arrows, and get your main weapons adamantized, too.
Alynn
08-18-05, 10:49 PM Example:

Normally, if you want a +6 keen longsword instead of a +5 (boring) longsword, you need to trade in your lonsword at 1/2 price and pay up a total of 47,000 gold.

Actually no you wouldn't you just add the enhancement and keen ability to the +5 longsword you already have

which would cost (going from a +5 to a +7) 24000gp and 960XP if done by the character or 48000gp if done by an NPC. IE the +5 longsword is worth 50315, and a +7 (+6 enchancement +1 for keen) is worth 98315, the cost for the upgrade is the difference.

So yes a transaction like that for 22K is very very cheap. On top of this, why would any character take craft magical arms and armor feat... I know I wouldn't.
orionm42
08-19-05, 11:02 AM The armor cost is on me! I pay the tab for any armor you wish to buy! But, the catch (you got to love catches) is that its going to be gradual: every level after level 5, you get a +1 enhancement to armor: thus, you will reach +10 armor at level 15...

+10 armor has a base price of 100,000gp. PC wealth at 15th level should be 200,000gp. He is going to allow you to have a single item worth half your wealth target??? And he wants to GIVE it to you for FREE??? :uh-huh:

This guy makes Monty Hall look like Scrooge! :looloo:
DrMorganes
08-19-05, 11:29 AM Just a few other things to toss out:

A +6 longsword is an epic-level weapon. Non-epic weapons top out at a +5 enhancement bonus. Likewise for armor. Total equivalent bonuses for non-epic weapons and armor is +10, but this includes your "to hit" bonuses AND any special enhancements, like Keen, Flaming, etc. To illustrate:

A +6 Keen longsword is, for purposes of cost determination, a +7 weapon. +6 for the weapon enhancement, +1 equivalent for the Keen property. However, as stated above, that +6 weapon enhancement is an epic level quality and carries with it a VERY hefty price tag, along with a caster level requirement of 21 or above.

If, on the other hand, we're talking about a +5 Keen longsword, use the standard item creation rules. +5 for the weapon enhancement, +1 equivalent for the Keen property, for a total cost of +6, plus the cost of a masterwork longsword.

Price breakdowns are available in the SRD.
Alynn
08-19-05, 11:47 AM Don't get me wrong... I think there should be some perks to working for them...

Free access to any forge to make your own arms and armor (IMC if you aren't part of the wizard guild you pay 500gp a day to rent a workshop, pretty much standard for most of them) this is over top of the creation price.

Full buyback price for any mundane armor, but magical arms and armor sell back at normal half price. They make most their money off of magical items, so they can lose money here and there on mundane stuff.

Now I'd say mitheral and things like that, if they don't bring it themselves, they pay 75% of that cost, but for the really rare materials, they may have to wait days or months for sufficent amounts to be found/bought to make their armor/weapon. And a 5% discount on any premade items bought from them... That's hardly gamebreaking, and at very high enhancement levels, a nice chunk of change.

But just giving them stuff.... I wouldn't be able to stand a DM basically saying, hey, you will wear a breastplate, when I really want splintmail.
Thoronmir
08-19-05, 02:00 PM EDIT: He says its because we suck with money. He also said that in returen for these things, he would deduct gold as a price for these incentives. Which I find to mean that he's upgrading our stuff for us because he feels we cant do it right.Yes, that's exactly what he's doing. He has created a different mechanism for ensuring the PCs have adequate levels of wealth. However, nothing you've said suggests that your DM intends to usurp the players' right to choose what items they carry. Note that your DM twice uses the phrase "if you want" to describe his process (he also says "you are able" and "any armor you wish to buy").

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SionofDarkness 08-18-05, 10:34 PM	I figured this should go here, since it's a DM quest concern. If somebody feels it would be better in the Players board, go ahead and move it. My DM is just starting out, and he put a few incentives on our quest. We've been playing for a while, but he decided to DM a quest with all new characters. Here are his incentives, copy and pasted from our board... "That's right, there are incentives to this quest... Ok, you guys are a part of a consolidated armory "guild", per se. You guys are able to trade in your weapons, armors, shields (nothing else) for their full cost and able to upgrade with the subsequent gold costs. Example: Normally, if you want a +6 keen longsword instead of a +5 (boring) longsword, you need to trade in your lonsword at 1/2 price and pay up a total of 47,000 gold. Now, this same transaction can be completed for (a paltry) 22,000 gold. Bonus features: The armor cost is on me! I pay the tab for any armor you wish to buy! But, the catch (you got to love catches) is that its going to be gradual: every level after level 5, you get a +1 enhancement to armor: thus, you will reach +10 armor at level 15. In other words, you all start off with +1 armor. BTW, the armor material is also on me...so if you want mithril chain shirt (rierevin) you've got it!" I say they're too cheap. Am I totally wrong, or what? EDIT: He says its because we suck with money. He also said that in returen for these things, he would deduct gold as a price for these incentives. Which I find to mean that he's upgrading our stuff for us because he feels we cant do it right.
Citizen Fry 08-18-05, 10:40 PM	I hate when the DM tries to do things for me. I'd rather figure it out myself. Usually, if you're adding just adding enhancements (upgrading +5 to +6 keen in your example) you just pay the difference anyway, which is effectively the same as trading in the old one for full price. Although getting full price trade-ins is still a good deal, for all the recovered magical gear you don't want. If he's buying material for you for free, give everyone mythril or adamantine armor, load up your quivers with a variety of silver/adamantine/cold iron arrows, and get your main weapons adamantized, too.
Alynn 08-18-05, 10:49 PM	Example: Normally, if you want a +6 keen longsword instead of a +5 (boring) longsword, you need to trade in your lonsword at 1/2 price and pay up a total of 47,000 gold. Actually no you wouldn't you just add the enhancement and keen ability to the +5 longsword you already have which would cost (going from a +5 to a +7) 24000gp and 960XP if done by the character or 48000gp if done by an NPC. IE the +5 longsword is worth 50315, and a +7 (+6 enchancement +1 for keen) is worth 98315, the cost for the upgrade is the difference. So yes a transaction like that for 22K is very very cheap. On top of this, why would any character take craft magical arms and armor feat... I know I wouldn't.
orionm42 08-19-05, 11:02 AM	The armor cost is on me! I pay the tab for any armor you wish to buy! But, the catch (you got to love catches) is that its going to be gradual: every level after level 5, you get a +1 enhancement to armor: thus, you will reach +10 armor at level 15... +10 armor has a base price of 100,000gp. PC wealth at 15th level should be 200,000gp. He is going to allow you to have a single item worth half your wealth target??? And he wants to GIVE it to you for FREE??? :uh-huh: This guy makes Monty Hall look like Scrooge! :looloo:
DrMorganes 08-19-05, 11:29 AM	Just a few other things to toss out: A +6 longsword is an epic-level weapon. Non-epic weapons top out at a +5 enhancement bonus. Likewise for armor. Total equivalent bonuses for non-epic weapons and armor is +10, but this includes your "to hit" bonuses AND any special enhancements, like Keen, Flaming, etc. To illustrate: A +6 Keen longsword is, for purposes of cost determination, a +7 weapon. +6 for the weapon enhancement, +1 equivalent for the Keen property. However, as stated above, that +6 weapon enhancement is an epic level quality and carries with it a VERY hefty price tag, along with a caster level requirement of 21 or above. If, on the other hand, we're talking about a +5 Keen longsword, use the standard item creation rules. +5 for the weapon enhancement, +1 equivalent for the Keen property, for a total cost of +6, plus the cost of a masterwork longsword. Price breakdowns are available in the SRD.
Alynn 08-19-05, 11:47 AM	Don't get me wrong... I think there should be some perks to working for them... Free access to any forge to make your own arms and armor (IMC if you aren't part of the wizard guild you pay 500gp a day to rent a workshop, pretty much standard for most of them) this is over top of the creation price. Full buyback price for any mundane armor, but magical arms and armor sell back at normal half price. They make most their money off of magical items, so they can lose money here and there on mundane stuff. Now I'd say mitheral and things like that, if they don't bring it themselves, they pay 75% of that cost, but for the really rare materials, they may have to wait days or months for sufficent amounts to be found/bought to make their armor/weapon. And a 5% discount on any premade items bought from them... That's hardly gamebreaking, and at very high enhancement levels, a nice chunk of change. But just giving them stuff.... I wouldn't be able to stand a DM basically saying, hey, you will wear a breastplate, when I really want splintmail.
Thoronmir 08-19-05, 02:00 PM	EDIT: He says its because we suck with money. He also said that in returen for these things, he would deduct gold as a price for these incentives. Which I find to mean that he's upgrading our stuff for us because he feels we cant do it right.Yes, that's exactly what he's doing. He has created a different mechanism for ensuring the PCs have adequate levels of wealth. However, nothing you've said suggests that your DM intends to usurp the players' right to choose what items they carry. Note that your DM twice uses the phrase "if you want" to describe his process (he also says "you are able" and "any armor you wish to buy").