Are these two BBEG's going to be too difficult for the PC's? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are these two BBEG's going to be too difficult for the PC's? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
12-31-03, 02:39 PM I'm nearing the end of converting a huge 2nd ed dungeon adventure to 3.0 rules, and I'm wondering if the BBEG's are going to be too difficult for the PC's. The group will be forming after we return to school from the Christmas break, so I don't know what classes/prc's they will be. The PC's will start the labyrinth at 17th or 18th level, and will probably be 19th level when they face the first BBEG, and will probably be 20th level when they face the second BBEG. There is virtually no chance that these two BBEG's will be encountered together.

Although a few small things had to be changed and reworked due to conversion between editions, for the most part I've tried to keep things as close to the original modual as possible.

The first BBEG:

A corrupted titan that casts as a 20th level wizard (this is 3.0) and has one level of cleric (so he can use what equates to a staff of life which he possesses in the 2e modual). His encounter-pertinant equipment includes a maul of the titans, and the staff of life (with approximately 15 charges remaining - it's not an exact conversion with this item). The main encounter with him will occur in a large underground chamber. I was planning on him beginning the encounter being invisible or imp invisible, and casting mirror image(in case the invis gets dispelled) and hasteupon himself; probably also a shield spell. I was going to have him start off with a firestorm and then perhaps try the forcecage/ acid cloud combo to occupy some of the party for a while. He also has a time stop listed as one of his prepared spells in the modual, so perhaps he'll use that to inflict the forcecage vileness.

I was looking at the titan in the 3.5 SRD, and it gives the tactics for the titan as starting off with a quickened chain lighting (which I could duplicate w/ haste) and then attemping to sunder the weapon of the most dangerous opponent. The following rounds are similar. So, I'm debating whether I should employ that tactic instead, especially since he has a Maul of the Titans, which should deal triple damage to weapons (even when held they are considered inanimate objects, correct?) However, I find it particularily mean as a DM to be sundering the fighters' weapons and such.

The second BBEG:

A human lich Cleric 7/Master of Shrouds 9/Heriophant 2 that had been corrupted by evil extraplanar energies into the form of a yuan-ti abomination. So basically he's the mind, feats, and skills of an 18th level human stuck into the body of a yuanti, but applying the yuan-ti abom stat modifiers to the base stats (+8 str, +2 dex, +8 int, +8 wis, +6 cha), and then turning that into a lich. He has access to the destruction, death, evil, protection, and scalykind domains

He will be awakened when the PC's disturb the outer door of his tomb and will use his ring of invisibility to become invisible and then exit his sarcophigus. He will stand off to the side of the 20'x20' room buffing himself with spells (2 per round using quicken) until the PC enter, waiting to see what the PC's do. If they don't leave imediately after finding the tomb 'empty,' he will strike to kill. He will start off by summoning some undead (Master of Shrouds ability), which will allow him to remain invisible. His first direct strike against the PC's will be Creeping Doom (composed of snakes - scalykind domain spell). He'll probably follow that with firestorm or a Circle of Doom that has been freely maximized with (3.0) 'Blast Infidel.'

Unless the party has a high-level barbarian or dwarven defender, or the wizard happens to cast stoneskin on everyone, I'm a little worried that the creeping doom is just going to flat out kill the entire party. But at the same time, they are going to be 20th level characters.

As a side note, here is what I'm going to do for them as far as starting equipment:

I'm going to pick out 150 K gp-worth of items per PC from the DMG, approximately divided like this: one 50k item, one 40k item, one 25k item, one 10k item, and then 25k-worth of items ranging anywhere from 1k - 20k in value. All this stuff will just be lumped together into one list, and the PC's will decide amongst themselves how to divide it. This represents items they would have procured from evil foes throughout their careers.

Each PC will then be given 150k in gold to be spent pretty much however they want. They could use it to buy one +8 equivalent weapon and a few other minor things, they could use it to upgrade items they got from the divided group pile of equipment, they can pretty much buy whatever they want with it.

There will also be a few extra items placed in the group pile (such as a helm of teleporting) just to help the entire group (in the case of the helm, it's so if there is a near TPK, the surviving member (no matter if he is a caster or not) can t-port out to get his friends raised, and the adventure can continue.
Escef
01-01-04, 09:19 AM They should do fine enough. I don't see any reason to not forcecage first, and if/when that fails refer to book tactics, where's the feeling of loss over a weapon they didn't earn anyway? You've already given them an escape item, you've done more than enough thinking for them. Let them plan ahead on their own. I hope these are experienced players, otherwise they'll b lost with all the high level abilities and choose flashy stuff instead of stuff that works or will be needed. I don't know about your players, but mine would always find a way (but I think everyone in my group is too stubborn to retreat except for my NPCs).
MinusInnocence
01-01-04, 10:24 AM I think you should just grant them however much treasure a starting character of 20th level should have. I don't have my 3.0 books anymore but your totals sounded a little ostentatious.

I think the group is going to have a hard time of it, but they may come out on top. I have to assume neither you nor the players really intend to continue playing those characters after this - otherwise you probably would have built up characters from an earlier level. To me, it would just feel weird continuing with one-shot characters after the quest has already been completed.
Morka
01-01-04, 11:16 AM For your second BBEG, if you summon undead & snake minions, don't follow with a Firestorm, you will kill your own minions... Perhaps better with some chain lightnings, rays or enchantment spells...
ksbsnowowl
01-01-04, 02:57 PM First of all, thank you for the replies:)

Escef: Your words are wise. I've only gamed with one or two of these guys before, so I don't know what kind of stuff they favor. They'll have to keep their wits about them to get through this one alive though. Monte Cook (the writer of the module) stated once that he had been contacted by a group of players who had taken some of the FR greats (Drizz't, maybe even Elminster; the FR big-wigs) through this dungeon, and every single character was dead by the 4th room. I myself have seen someone die in this adventure during the first five minutes, before they actually got inside the labyrinth. So, I have to see how it goes; they'll have to be serious about this one the whole way through.

MinusInnocence: The adventure is billed for characters of 15th level and above. I'm going to be starting them at either 17th or 18th; the wealth values for those two levels are 340K and 440K respectively. Each character will have 150K gold to spend as they please and approximately 150K worth of pre-generated items (depending on how they work with each other to divide that loot). In addition there will be one extra share's worth of 150K pre-generated items that fall more into the category of 'party items' (a partially used staff of life, the helm of t-port, etc.) Even if they start at 18th level, they're present 'liquidated' wealth with fall around 100K below the wealth for their level. I think it would be normal for characters of that level to have that much of their wealth tied up in land, titles, and other resources, don't you? And it's not like they won't be finding items in various places throughout the dungeon. I'm even bumping up the '+'value of every enhanced item in the dungeon by +1 so that they get some decent equipment along the way (I thought it somewhat ridiculous that some of these creatures/NPC's had mere things such as +1 great swords as their greatest asset.) And if they need to take a break and t-port out to re-supply, that's cool, and then they can trade in all the +2 short swords and such that they find to get more items (I'm setting it in FR; they won't have much trouble finding things, especially with the help of the church who sponsored them to go to this labyrinth).

And yes, this is pretty much a one-shot deal. But really, the module itself even suggests making new characters specifically for this adventure. I might take them into one epic-level adventure if they really what to try it after this, but I think I'd prefer to keep it just to this adventure.

Morka: Good point on the firestorm. The creeping doom will most likely be nearly gone after the first round anyway, but it wouldn't hurt to allow the specters and other incorporeals to do their thing a while longer. I'll probably go with the circle of doom that round then; it'll deal 26 damage to all the PC's and heal the undead the same amount at the same time. Ah, to be a Lich with the Heriophant's 'Blast infidel' power - it's nice. Maybe I'll throw in a quickened, freely maximized enervation too....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 12-31-03, 02:39 PM	I'm nearing the end of converting a huge 2nd ed dungeon adventure to 3.0 rules, and I'm wondering if the BBEG's are going to be too difficult for the PC's. The group will be forming after we return to school from the Christmas break, so I don't know what classes/prc's they will be. The PC's will start the labyrinth at 17th or 18th level, and will probably be 19th level when they face the first BBEG, and will probably be 20th level when they face the second BBEG. There is virtually no chance that these two BBEG's will be encountered together. Although a few small things had to be changed and reworked due to conversion between editions, for the most part I've tried to keep things as close to the original modual as possible. The first BBEG: A corrupted titan that casts as a 20th level wizard (this is 3.0) and has one level of cleric (so he can use what equates to a staff of life which he possesses in the 2e modual). His encounter-pertinant equipment includes a maul of the titans, and the staff of life (with approximately 15 charges remaining - it's not an exact conversion with this item). The main encounter with him will occur in a large underground chamber. I was planning on him beginning the encounter being invisible or imp invisible, and casting mirror image(in case the invis gets dispelled) and hasteupon himself; probably also a shield spell. I was going to have him start off with a firestorm and then perhaps try the forcecage/ acid cloud combo to occupy some of the party for a while. He also has a time stop listed as one of his prepared spells in the modual, so perhaps he'll use that to inflict the forcecage vileness. I was looking at the titan in the 3.5 SRD, and it gives the tactics for the titan as starting off with a quickened chain lighting (which I could duplicate w/ haste) and then attemping to sunder the weapon of the most dangerous opponent. The following rounds are similar. So, I'm debating whether I should employ that tactic instead, especially since he has a Maul of the Titans, which should deal triple damage to weapons (even when held they are considered inanimate objects, correct?) However, I find it particularily mean as a DM to be sundering the fighters' weapons and such. The second BBEG: A human lich Cleric 7/Master of Shrouds 9/Heriophant 2 that had been corrupted by evil extraplanar energies into the form of a yuan-ti abomination. So basically he's the mind, feats, and skills of an 18th level human stuck into the body of a yuanti, but applying the yuan-ti abom stat modifiers to the base stats (+8 str, +2 dex, +8 int, +8 wis, +6 cha), and then turning that into a lich. He has access to the destruction, death, evil, protection, and scalykind domains He will be awakened when the PC's disturb the outer door of his tomb and will use his ring of invisibility to become invisible and then exit his sarcophigus. He will stand off to the side of the 20'x20' room buffing himself with spells (2 per round using quicken) until the PC enter, waiting to see what the PC's do. If they don't leave imediately after finding the tomb 'empty,' he will strike to kill. He will start off by summoning some undead (Master of Shrouds ability), which will allow him to remain invisible. His first direct strike against the PC's will be Creeping Doom (composed of snakes - scalykind domain spell). He'll probably follow that with firestorm or a Circle of Doom that has been freely maximized with (3.0) 'Blast Infidel.' Unless the party has a high-level barbarian or dwarven defender, or the wizard happens to cast stoneskin on everyone, I'm a little worried that the creeping doom is just going to flat out kill the entire party. But at the same time, they are going to be 20th level characters. As a side note, here is what I'm going to do for them as far as starting equipment: I'm going to pick out 150 K gp-worth of items per PC from the DMG, approximately divided like this: one 50k item, one 40k item, one 25k item, one 10k item, and then 25k-worth of items ranging anywhere from 1k - 20k in value. All this stuff will just be lumped together into one list, and the PC's will decide amongst themselves how to divide it. This represents items they would have procured from evil foes throughout their careers. Each PC will then be given 150k in gold to be spent pretty much however they want. They could use it to buy one +8 equivalent weapon and a few other minor things, they could use it to upgrade items they got from the divided group pile of equipment, they can pretty much buy whatever they want with it. There will also be a few extra items placed in the group pile (such as a helm of teleporting) just to help the entire group (in the case of the helm, it's so if there is a near TPK, the surviving member (no matter if he is a caster or not) can t-port out to get his friends raised, and the adventure can continue.
Escef 01-01-04, 09:19 AM	They should do fine enough. I don't see any reason to not forcecage first, and if/when that fails refer to book tactics, where's the feeling of loss over a weapon they didn't earn anyway? You've already given them an escape item, you've done more than enough thinking for them. Let them plan ahead on their own. I hope these are experienced players, otherwise they'll b lost with all the high level abilities and choose flashy stuff instead of stuff that works or will be needed. I don't know about your players, but mine would always find a way (but I think everyone in my group is too stubborn to retreat except for my NPCs).
MinusInnocence 01-01-04, 10:24 AM	I think you should just grant them however much treasure a starting character of 20th level should have. I don't have my 3.0 books anymore but your totals sounded a little ostentatious. I think the group is going to have a hard time of it, but they may come out on top. I have to assume neither you nor the players really intend to continue playing those characters after this - otherwise you probably would have built up characters from an earlier level. To me, it would just feel weird continuing with one-shot characters after the quest has already been completed.
Morka 01-01-04, 11:16 AM	For your second BBEG, if you summon undead & snake minions, don't follow with a Firestorm, you will kill your own minions... Perhaps better with some chain lightnings, rays or enchantment spells...
ksbsnowowl 01-01-04, 02:57 PM	First of all, thank you for the replies:) Escef: Your words are wise. I've only gamed with one or two of these guys before, so I don't know what kind of stuff they favor. They'll have to keep their wits about them to get through this one alive though. Monte Cook (the writer of the module) stated once that he had been contacted by a group of players who had taken some of the FR greats (Drizz't, maybe even Elminster; the FR big-wigs) through this dungeon, and every single character was dead by the 4th room. I myself have seen someone die in this adventure during the first five minutes, before they actually got inside the labyrinth. So, I have to see how it goes; they'll have to be serious about this one the whole way through. MinusInnocence: The adventure is billed for characters of 15th level and above. I'm going to be starting them at either 17th or 18th; the wealth values for those two levels are 340K and 440K respectively. Each character will have 150K gold to spend as they please and approximately 150K worth of pre-generated items (depending on how they work with each other to divide that loot). In addition there will be one extra share's worth of 150K pre-generated items that fall more into the category of 'party items' (a partially used staff of life, the helm of t-port, etc.) Even if they start at 18th level, they're present 'liquidated' wealth with fall around 100K below the wealth for their level. I think it would be normal for characters of that level to have that much of their wealth tied up in land, titles, and other resources, don't you? And it's not like they won't be finding items in various places throughout the dungeon. I'm even bumping up the '+'value of every enhanced item in the dungeon by +1 so that they get some decent equipment along the way (I thought it somewhat ridiculous that some of these creatures/NPC's had mere things such as +1 great swords as their greatest asset.) And if they need to take a break and t-port out to re-supply, that's cool, and then they can trade in all the +2 short swords and such that they find to get more items (I'm setting it in FR; they won't have much trouble finding things, especially with the help of the church who sponsored them to go to this labyrinth). And yes, this is pretty much a one-shot deal. But really, the module itself even suggests making new characters specifically for this adventure. I might take them into one epic-level adventure if they really what to try it after this, but I think I'd prefer to keep it just to this adventure. Morka: Good point on the firestorm. The creeping doom will most likely be nearly gone after the first round anyway, but it wouldn't hurt to allow the specters and other incorporeals to do their thing a while longer. I'll probably go with the circle of doom that round then; it'll deal 26 damage to all the PC's and heal the undead the same amount at the same time. Ah, to be a Lich with the Heriophant's 'Blast infidel' power - it's nice. Maybe I'll throw in a quickened, freely maximized enervation too....