Are Wyrmlings tough enough? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are Wyrmlings tough enough? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
phauge
10-30-06, 05:03 PM I'm going to be running a game with about 5-6 lvl 1 PC's. I think some of them might see this post, so I will keep this simple. How many Wyrmlings would make for a tough encounter? If they are smart, should they be able to take on several at once as a group, or is one at a time for the group a challenge as it is? This will be my first time using dragons and I want it to be a decent, but fun challenge for them. Should I increase the age of the dragons if I want them to take them on one at a time? For the sake of the story, I really want them to be handling one at a time as a group. Does one Wyrmling and a few Kobolds work? Any ideas or suggestions would be great...
CroBob
10-30-06, 05:09 PM Well, keep in mind the monster's CR. If you want the PCs to just have a fight, then match up the CR. IF you want the fight to be difficult, make it one or two higher.

However, I have to question what level 1 PCs are doing fighting dragons already. Where are the parent dragons? How did they find the nest? Why would they even bother with the fight, in case it angered the parent dragon? Why not high-tail it out of there to avoid angering the parent? What's wrong with kobalds and orcs? The earliest any of my PCs ever faught a dragon on my campaign was at level three, and that nearly killed them, plus they then had an adult dragon trying to figure out who killed her child. It was due to sheer luck that the adult was not around during the fight or in time to see the PCs escape.
phauge
10-30-06, 05:16 PM Great questions, all of which I have answers to. However, like I said, the PC's read these boards so I don't want to give much away and spoil it for them.

So I guess my question really boils down to CR's. Should I handle CR's on a one to one basis? or do I take the fact that there are 5-6 lvl 1 PCs and pit them against something with a 5 CR? Wrymlings have a CR of 1, right? But how many PC's is that good for? 1? 3? Know what I'm saying?
CroBob
10-30-06, 05:40 PM You should take the number of PCs into account, but at that low level, if you really want them to be challenged, some of them will most likely die (or come damned close). It's almost certain. Either way, I wouldn't suggest using more than a single wyrmling. Any more would be overkill. Keep in mind that the doubling of the number of a creature effectively doubles the Encounter level.

I'll bring it up now, I've recently advanced some devils for my campaign (the PC average level is 17). There will be a total of 16 creatures, each of which is CR 10. This equates to an effective CR of 18. One single CR 18 monster would be handled fairly easily by the group, but these 16 creatures I fear may kill some of them. I only have one way of finding out, of course, but I always fear multiple creature battles, especially clever creatures, because they are so powerful in comparison to merely one.
BelRex
10-30-06, 05:57 PM Cr's are based around a balanced group of 4 characters. If you are increasing that number, increase the CR. I forget the amount right off hand, but it should be in the DMG. Wyrmlings have CR's from 2-5(white to gold). If you want something fun, try pitting your group of 5-6 up against white wyrmlings, along with a couple older brothers or sisters. But a good start would probably be 2 white wyrmlings, both cr 2. You can split the group up, but don't expect the white dragons to do much in the way of tactics..they have a -4 to int. However..your group may look at those 2 'tiny' white dragons and laugh at you just a little bit..until older brother/s come along :P
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-30-06, 05:58 PM What type of wyrmling will they be fighting? Red, blue, green,white,black?
Anyways, dragons are quite powerful if played correctly. You should be fine with just one or possibly two.
BelRex
10-30-06, 06:07 PM Green would probably be a good bet in a swampy area or near water in a forest(creek, lake..etc). They're small and have hide and move silently as class skills, with no penalty to Int. He could be stalking the party, or make an escape rather quickly..either by air or water. At that level, your team would have no way of following. He would be CR 3, so that would be a nice challenge, especially since his breath weapon is a cone.

Heck, some of the metallic dragons would be fun to play around with. Most have a bonus to mental stats..so would think on par with the group, and have some form of tactics. A bronze dragon would be entertaining.

Also, dragon mag 343 has a couple of fun dragons. Try running them against a wyrmling tome dragon, CR 3, already has SR 11, and casts as a 3rd level sorcerer. It's tiny and would be hard to spot at first..would prove an interesting event. Perhaps the tome dragon is guarding it's new nest..an old mage tower.
Borris
10-30-06, 06:48 PM So I guess my question really boils down to CR's. Should I handle CR's on a one to one basis? or do I take the fact that there are 5-6 lvl 1 PCs and pit them against something with a 5 CR? Wrymlings have a CR of 1, right? But how many PC's is that good for? 1? 3? Know what I'm saying?

CRs assume that an encounter will take roughly one fourth of the expendable ressources (hp, spells, potions, but also rage, smite, wildshapes, etc) of an average party of four characters of the same level. After four such encounters, the party should be in need of rest or risk losing someone in the next fight. A party of 6 characters can be roughly considered one level higher for the purpose of finding the proper CR for monsters.

Encounters with CRs below the party level are usually very easy, those 1-3 tough and will usually expend much more than the standard 25% of ressources. Encounter 4 levels above the party can be won if the players still have full ressources and can prepare for the fight, but otherwise they're looking toward very high odds of PC casualties. Beyond that, a dead PC or two wouldn't be surprising unless the party prepared specifically for the encounter.

In your case, you have a party of 5-6 level 1 character. Let's say 6 and assume the party has the fighting power of a level 2 party of 4. Dragon wyrling CRs range from 2 for white to 5 for gold. A white wyrmling would be a fair challenge for them. Brass dragons are listed as CR 3 but are barely stronger white. Black and copper dragons can still be beaten by a level 2 party but are starting to pose a threat. One thing to remember is that dragons in D&D are almost always a bit too string for their CR.

Remember especially that your players are at level 1 and can only take 10 or so points of damage before falling, more or less depending on class. While also listed as CR 3, a blue wyrmling's breath is a line of lightning that deals 2d8 points of damage. A lucky roll on that breath could easily drop two or three party members if they fail their saves for half damage. And a blue wyrmling has a whopping 45 hp, much more than a white's 22. And don't forget that even the lowest wyrmling can do three attacks per round if it starts within 5 feet of its enemy.
phauge
10-30-06, 06:50 PM I want them to eventually fight one of each color. It's kind of an evil rainbow dungeon crawl.
phauge
10-30-06, 06:53 PM Damn. It sounds like I might end up killing these guys if they're not careful. I might have to rethink this.
primemover003
10-30-06, 06:58 PM As a DM who has just run a Party of seven 1st level PC's against some wyrmlings lemme tell ya, you need to plan out the encounter carefully. Now opposed to most people's advice on dragons in general, wyrmlings aren't geniuses... cunning to be sure, but not tactical geniuses.

Wyrmlings also tend to be Tiny, thus only their bite and breath weapon are effective weapons. You should probably Roleplay the wyrmling like an overly smart predator, rather than a scheming NPC. A predator with an ego and a nasty habit of killing things. That's how I did it with a wyrmling Fang dragon. I also gave it a tactical advantage with some Dust of Disappearance...

A wyrmling by itself is going to get wasted by a large party of 1st level PC's. They'll just have too many actions per round. It NEEDS allies or an advantage in terrain:

Having a red wyrmling fight PC's in a field of burning wheat or in a barnfire while preying on herd animals is hard on PC's but not the dragon (heat damage, smoke inhalation and concealment).
Fighting on a frozen pond or river in a snow storm definitely favors a white (balance checks, 1/2 Speed, -4 to ranged attacks)
Fighting a Green or Black inside a section of woods that have flooded, it's lair a hollow tree that can be accessed by the open top (obvious) and flooded roots (hidden) surrounded by waist deep water (1/4 speed or swim checks, improved cover for a submerged dragon).
A sandy desert with a few boulders for PC's to stand on as the blue plays "Tremors" with them

Dragons in the right situation, no matter how small or weak can be just plain nasty!!!
BelRex
10-30-06, 07:03 PM Keep the idea going. If you want, have a red wrymling that was saved and raised by a Cavern(161-800) of kobolds. Have the All-Watcher of the Cavern be a red dragonwrought elite venerable sorcerer kobold(lvl 5 or so). Your team could have a field day murdering swarms of kobold warriors and adepts. Would also give you a great opportunity to use a rogue's ability to trapfind. A kobold has a CR of it's NPC class level -3. So you could have whole teams of kobold warriors(lvl4) and adepts(lvl4) to throw against your team. And, because it would be underground, you would not have to deal with a dragon's ability to fly. Have the dragon retreat a couple of times, with adepts healing it, only to return to haunt the players again. It could be memorable.
Necrosis
10-30-06, 07:34 PM use the encounter calculator to check the combined CR/ECL of your encounter

http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm

Note terrain can add 1-2 CR easily as the red dragon + feild of flammable wheat+ gale, post states above :).
primemover003
10-30-06, 08:48 PM Which a lone wyrmling will need vs. a large party of 1st levels... I can't stress how important it is to spread out the firepower of a squad of adventurers as opposed to a team of them.
bruiserdeck
10-30-06, 10:36 PM wyrmlings are fun to toss into an adventure, my 3rd level group killed one the other day as a totaly random rolled random encounter. the thing even got a supprise round on us.

also ... read the draconomicon... most evil dragons do not exactly raise their young. you can kill a black dragon wyrmling for example and never have any reprocussions unless of course mama happend to be very close by, in which case she would kill the party not for killing the wyrmling but simply on the general principal that humanoids are roaming around in her land.
CrossBlade
10-30-06, 10:47 PM Where are the parent dragons? How did they find the nest?

Just to throw it out there, some of the metalic dragons do lay eggs outside of thier cave, in random places and neglect those young, while only tending to 1 nest of wyrmlings.
Can't remember which dragons off the top of my head, but I KNOW the red for sure does this... and possibly green (maybe black too, but not sure).

Edit:bruiserdeck beat my to the post.
CroBob
10-31-06, 01:01 AM I don't know if anyone corrected me, yet, but I said double the creatures doubles the encounter level. What I meant was that double the monsters adds 2 to the encounter level. oops.
Ocom
10-31-06, 01:21 AM Don't let them kill the little wyrmlings. lvl 1's beating up dragon babys is just wrong. Give them a bandit ambush. Works quite well since most players think thet creatures will just charge at them. Be sure to add hidden crossbowmans.

My favourite case would be a ambush where the party of 12th level characters were anihhilated by 3 ducks.. yes DUCKS.
CroBob
10-31-06, 02:26 AM Just to throw it out there, some of the metalic dragons do lay eggs outside of thier cave, in random places and neglect those young, while only tending to 1 nest of wyrmlings.
Can't remember which dragons off the top of my head, but I KNOW the red for sure does this... and possibly green (maybe black too, but not sure).

Edit:bruiserdeck beat my to the post.

That's true, but there would still be tales of a large red somewhere in the area, and which of the level one PCs is going to know the red doesn't care to get revenge for the death of it's children? If they attack the PCs, sure, but I don't see any PC willing to kill a baby dragon that has not proven potentially (at least) harmful to them or their friends.
Callista
10-31-06, 03:21 AM Re. Baby dragons: I'm not sure what the Draconomicon says about this, but if dragons are like most reptiles, they are born as fully functional (though small) adults, capable of taking care of themselves from the get-go. So a wyrmling would not be innocent, because it would not be a child--just a young dragon. If your world has dragons like this, then there is no such thing as a baby dragon.

If you want the party to fight a dragon, I suggest a single wyrmling, and careful strategy so as not to kill the PCs. Think about it:

Your level 1 characters have, at most, 16 HP.

The dragon can fly--which means only spells and ranged weapons can reach it.

The dragon has a breath weapon--a ranged weapon--so it can reach PCs while flying.

A wyrmling is quite intelligent. It can lay traps and use tactics just like any other intelligent creature. It can also have allies, withdraw if necessary, and use many magic items (which are then part of its treasure if the PCs kill it). One DM I know had a wyrmling drop bottles of acid on the party, like miniature bombs.

A CR 1 monster is a good fight (i.e., the PCs will probably win) for a group of 4 level 1 PCs; a CR 2 monster for a group of 4 level 2 PCs, and so on. An extra PC shouldn't unbalance that too much. You can give level 1 PCs fights of up to about CR 3 without being unfair. BBBEG fights naturally can be a little higher CR and more dangerous. Remember that some monsters have special qualities that might make it easier or harder for the party to survive an encounter with one; read the entry before putting one up against them.

Adjusting a monster's stats (giving it extra CON for some more HP, or just using elite array stats for it) can make it a bit tougher. But with dragons, they're already under-CR'd because they're suppposed to be tough fights.

My experience with dragons: The fight will be tough, brutal, and short: Either the PCs will kill it quickly, or they will be quickly killed (or run, which is the better option obviously if the dragon's getting the better of you).
KurenaiYami
10-31-06, 03:44 AM Your level 1 characters have, at most, 16 HP.
Unless they are a race that adds Constitution, like a dwarf. Or they took the Toughness feat any of times.

I had a dwarf in my party who had 29 hp at level one.

I allow flaws though, and aparently HP was all he cared about.
runestar
10-31-06, 03:45 AM The tricky part is its breath weapon, a bit of bad luck can spell doom for your party...:( And elemental resistance is quite rare at 1st lv...
CroBob
10-31-06, 03:53 AM I didn't intend to imply that the baby was innocent, only that the PCs have no reason to think it's parent won't chase them down, even if it actually won't. If they did happen to have that knowledge, I still don't see why one of the first things they'd do in their careers is go fight a dragon. Even a very small one. I'm not saying it cannot happen, just that it's something that should seriously be thought through before implemented.
Vanigo
10-31-06, 10:11 PM My favourite case would be a ambush where the party of 12th level characters were anihhilated by 3 ducks.. yes DUCKS.
All right, you're going to have to explain that. I mean, I don't think ducks would even have any attacks, and even if they did it'd take, like, 75 rounds of attacks to kill the party mage, let alone anyone else.
KurenaiYami
10-31-06, 10:34 PM All right, you're going to have to explain that. I mean, I don't think ducks would even have any attacks, and even if they did it'd take, like, 75 rounds of attacks to kill the party mage, let alone anyone else.
Unless they were fully corpse-crafted and Fire Embalmed Zombie Half Fiend Gargantuan Legendary Ducks!
bruiserdeck
11-01-06, 12:13 AM ... named Howard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
phauge 10-30-06, 05:03 PM	I'm going to be running a game with about 5-6 lvl 1 PC's. I think some of them might see this post, so I will keep this simple. How many Wyrmlings would make for a tough encounter? If they are smart, should they be able to take on several at once as a group, or is one at a time for the group a challenge as it is? This will be my first time using dragons and I want it to be a decent, but fun challenge for them. Should I increase the age of the dragons if I want them to take them on one at a time? For the sake of the story, I really want them to be handling one at a time as a group. Does one Wyrmling and a few Kobolds work? Any ideas or suggestions would be great...
CroBob 10-30-06, 05:09 PM	Well, keep in mind the monster's CR. If you want the PCs to just have a fight, then match up the CR. IF you want the fight to be difficult, make it one or two higher. However, I have to question what level 1 PCs are doing fighting dragons already. Where are the parent dragons? How did they find the nest? Why would they even bother with the fight, in case it angered the parent dragon? Why not high-tail it out of there to avoid angering the parent? What's wrong with kobalds and orcs? The earliest any of my PCs ever faught a dragon on my campaign was at level three, and that nearly killed them, plus they then had an adult dragon trying to figure out who killed her child. It was due to sheer luck that the adult was not around during the fight or in time to see the PCs escape.
phauge 10-30-06, 05:16 PM	Great questions, all of which I have answers to. However, like I said, the PC's read these boards so I don't want to give much away and spoil it for them. So I guess my question really boils down to CR's. Should I handle CR's on a one to one basis? or do I take the fact that there are 5-6 lvl 1 PCs and pit them against something with a 5 CR? Wrymlings have a CR of 1, right? But how many PC's is that good for? 1? 3? Know what I'm saying?
CroBob 10-30-06, 05:40 PM	You should take the number of PCs into account, but at that low level, if you really want them to be challenged, some of them will most likely die (or come damned close). It's almost certain. Either way, I wouldn't suggest using more than a single wyrmling. Any more would be overkill. Keep in mind that the doubling of the number of a creature effectively doubles the Encounter level. I'll bring it up now, I've recently advanced some devils for my campaign (the PC average level is 17). There will be a total of 16 creatures, each of which is CR 10. This equates to an effective CR of 18. One single CR 18 monster would be handled fairly easily by the group, but these 16 creatures I fear may kill some of them. I only have one way of finding out, of course, but I always fear multiple creature battles, especially clever creatures, because they are so powerful in comparison to merely one.
BelRex 10-30-06, 05:57 PM	Cr's are based around a balanced group of 4 characters. If you are increasing that number, increase the CR. I forget the amount right off hand, but it should be in the DMG. Wyrmlings have CR's from 2-5(white to gold). If you want something fun, try pitting your group of 5-6 up against white wyrmlings, along with a couple older brothers or sisters. But a good start would probably be 2 white wyrmlings, both cr 2. You can split the group up, but don't expect the white dragons to do much in the way of tactics..they have a -4 to int. However..your group may look at those 2 'tiny' white dragons and laugh at you just a little bit..until older brother/s come along :P
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-30-06, 05:58 PM	What type of wyrmling will they be fighting? Red, blue, green,white,black? Anyways, dragons are quite powerful if played correctly. You should be fine with just one or possibly two.
BelRex 10-30-06, 06:07 PM	Green would probably be a good bet in a swampy area or near water in a forest(creek, lake..etc). They're small and have hide and move silently as class skills, with no penalty to Int. He could be stalking the party, or make an escape rather quickly..either by air or water. At that level, your team would have no way of following. He would be CR 3, so that would be a nice challenge, especially since his breath weapon is a cone. Heck, some of the metallic dragons would be fun to play around with. Most have a bonus to mental stats..so would think on par with the group, and have some form of tactics. A bronze dragon would be entertaining. Also, dragon mag 343 has a couple of fun dragons. Try running them against a wyrmling tome dragon, CR 3, already has SR 11, and casts as a 3rd level sorcerer. It's tiny and would be hard to spot at first..would prove an interesting event. Perhaps the tome dragon is guarding it's new nest..an old mage tower.
Borris 10-30-06, 06:48 PM	So I guess my question really boils down to CR's. Should I handle CR's on a one to one basis? or do I take the fact that there are 5-6 lvl 1 PCs and pit them against something with a 5 CR? Wrymlings have a CR of 1, right? But how many PC's is that good for? 1? 3? Know what I'm saying? CRs assume that an encounter will take roughly one fourth of the expendable ressources (hp, spells, potions, but also rage, smite, wildshapes, etc) of an average party of four characters of the same level. After four such encounters, the party should be in need of rest or risk losing someone in the next fight. A party of 6 characters can be roughly considered one level higher for the purpose of finding the proper CR for monsters. Encounters with CRs below the party level are usually very easy, those 1-3 tough and will usually expend much more than the standard 25% of ressources. Encounter 4 levels above the party can be won if the players still have full ressources and can prepare for the fight, but otherwise they're looking toward very high odds of PC casualties. Beyond that, a dead PC or two wouldn't be surprising unless the party prepared specifically for the encounter. In your case, you have a party of 5-6 level 1 character. Let's say 6 and assume the party has the fighting power of a level 2 party of 4. Dragon wyrling CRs range from 2 for white to 5 for gold. A white wyrmling would be a fair challenge for them. Brass dragons are listed as CR 3 but are barely stronger white. Black and copper dragons can still be beaten by a level 2 party but are starting to pose a threat. One thing to remember is that dragons in D&D are almost always a bit too string for their CR. Remember especially that your players are at level 1 and can only take 10 or so points of damage before falling, more or less depending on class. While also listed as CR 3, a blue wyrmling's breath is a line of lightning that deals 2d8 points of damage. A lucky roll on that breath could easily drop two or three party members if they fail their saves for half damage. And a blue wyrmling has a whopping 45 hp, much more than a white's 22. And don't forget that even the lowest wyrmling can do three attacks per round if it starts within 5 feet of its enemy.
phauge 10-30-06, 06:50 PM	I want them to eventually fight one of each color. It's kind of an evil rainbow dungeon crawl.
phauge 10-30-06, 06:53 PM	Damn. It sounds like I might end up killing these guys if they're not careful. I might have to rethink this.
primemover003 10-30-06, 06:58 PM	As a DM who has just run a Party of seven 1st level PC's against some wyrmlings lemme tell ya, you need to plan out the encounter carefully. Now opposed to most people's advice on dragons in general, wyrmlings aren't geniuses... cunning to be sure, but not tactical geniuses. Wyrmlings also tend to be Tiny, thus only their bite and breath weapon are effective weapons. You should probably Roleplay the wyrmling like an overly smart predator, rather than a scheming NPC. A predator with an ego and a nasty habit of killing things. That's how I did it with a wyrmling Fang dragon. I also gave it a tactical advantage with some Dust of Disappearance... A wyrmling by itself is going to get wasted by a large party of 1st level PC's. They'll just have too many actions per round. It NEEDS allies or an advantage in terrain: Having a red wyrmling fight PC's in a field of burning wheat or in a barnfire while preying on herd animals is hard on PC's but not the dragon (heat damage, smoke inhalation and concealment). Fighting on a frozen pond or river in a snow storm definitely favors a white (balance checks, 1/2 Speed, -4 to ranged attacks) Fighting a Green or Black inside a section of woods that have flooded, it's lair a hollow tree that can be accessed by the open top (obvious) and flooded roots (hidden) surrounded by waist deep water (1/4 speed or swim checks, improved cover for a submerged dragon). A sandy desert with a few boulders for PC's to stand on as the blue plays "Tremors" with them Dragons in the right situation, no matter how small or weak can be just plain nasty!!!
BelRex 10-30-06, 07:03 PM	Keep the idea going. If you want, have a red wrymling that was saved and raised by a Cavern(161-800) of kobolds. Have the All-Watcher of the Cavern be a red dragonwrought elite venerable sorcerer kobold(lvl 5 or so). Your team could have a field day murdering swarms of kobold warriors and adepts. Would also give you a great opportunity to use a rogue's ability to trapfind. A kobold has a CR of it's NPC class level -3. So you could have whole teams of kobold warriors(lvl4) and adepts(lvl4) to throw against your team. And, because it would be underground, you would not have to deal with a dragon's ability to fly. Have the dragon retreat a couple of times, with adepts healing it, only to return to haunt the players again. It could be memorable.
Necrosis 10-30-06, 07:34 PM	use the encounter calculator to check the combined CR/ECL of your encounter http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm Note terrain can add 1-2 CR easily as the red dragon + feild of flammable wheat+ gale, post states above :).
primemover003 10-30-06, 08:48 PM	Which a lone wyrmling will need vs. a large party of 1st levels... I can't stress how important it is to spread out the firepower of a squad of adventurers as opposed to a team of them.
bruiserdeck 10-30-06, 10:36 PM	wyrmlings are fun to toss into an adventure, my 3rd level group killed one the other day as a totaly random rolled random encounter. the thing even got a supprise round on us. also ... read the draconomicon... most evil dragons do not exactly raise their young. you can kill a black dragon wyrmling for example and never have any reprocussions unless of course mama happend to be very close by, in which case she would kill the party not for killing the wyrmling but simply on the general principal that humanoids are roaming around in her land.
CrossBlade 10-30-06, 10:47 PM	Where are the parent dragons? How did they find the nest? Just to throw it out there, some of the metalic dragons do lay eggs outside of thier cave, in random places and neglect those young, while only tending to 1 nest of wyrmlings. Can't remember which dragons off the top of my head, but I KNOW the red for sure does this... and possibly green (maybe black too, but not sure). Edit:bruiserdeck beat my to the post.
CroBob 10-31-06, 01:01 AM	I don't know if anyone corrected me, yet, but I said double the creatures doubles the encounter level. What I meant was that double the monsters adds 2 to the encounter level. oops.
Ocom 10-31-06, 01:21 AM	Don't let them kill the little wyrmlings. lvl 1's beating up dragon babys is just wrong. Give them a bandit ambush. Works quite well since most players think thet creatures will just charge at them. Be sure to add hidden crossbowmans. My favourite case would be a ambush where the party of 12th level characters were anihhilated by 3 ducks.. yes DUCKS.
CroBob 10-31-06, 02:26 AM	Just to throw it out there, some of the metalic dragons do lay eggs outside of thier cave, in random places and neglect those young, while only tending to 1 nest of wyrmlings. Can't remember which dragons off the top of my head, but I KNOW the red for sure does this... and possibly green (maybe black too, but not sure). Edit:bruiserdeck beat my to the post. That's true, but there would still be tales of a large red somewhere in the area, and which of the level one PCs is going to know the red doesn't care to get revenge for the death of it's children? If they attack the PCs, sure, but I don't see any PC willing to kill a baby dragon that has not proven potentially (at least) harmful to them or their friends.
Callista 10-31-06, 03:21 AM	Re. Baby dragons: I'm not sure what the Draconomicon says about this, but if dragons are like most reptiles, they are born as fully functional (though small) adults, capable of taking care of themselves from the get-go. So a wyrmling would not be innocent, because it would not be a child--just a young dragon. If your world has dragons like this, then there is no such thing as a baby dragon. If you want the party to fight a dragon, I suggest a single wyrmling, and careful strategy so as not to kill the PCs. Think about it: Your level 1 characters have, at most, 16 HP. The dragon can fly--which means only spells and ranged weapons can reach it. The dragon has a breath weapon--a ranged weapon--so it can reach PCs while flying. A wyrmling is quite intelligent. It can lay traps and use tactics just like any other intelligent creature. It can also have allies, withdraw if necessary, and use many magic items (which are then part of its treasure if the PCs kill it). One DM I know had a wyrmling drop bottles of acid on the party, like miniature bombs. A CR 1 monster is a good fight (i.e., the PCs will probably win) for a group of 4 level 1 PCs; a CR 2 monster for a group of 4 level 2 PCs, and so on. An extra PC shouldn't unbalance that too much. You can give level 1 PCs fights of up to about CR 3 without being unfair. BBBEG fights naturally can be a little higher CR and more dangerous. Remember that some monsters have special qualities that might make it easier or harder for the party to survive an encounter with one; read the entry before putting one up against them. Adjusting a monster's stats (giving it extra CON for some more HP, or just using elite array stats for it) can make it a bit tougher. But with dragons, they're already under-CR'd because they're suppposed to be tough fights. My experience with dragons: The fight will be tough, brutal, and short: Either the PCs will kill it quickly, or they will be quickly killed (or run, which is the better option obviously if the dragon's getting the better of you).
KurenaiYami 10-31-06, 03:44 AM	Your level 1 characters have, at most, 16 HP. Unless they are a race that adds Constitution, like a dwarf. Or they took the Toughness feat any of times. I had a dwarf in my party who had 29 hp at level one. I allow flaws though, and aparently HP was all he cared about.
runestar 10-31-06, 03:45 AM	The tricky part is its breath weapon, a bit of bad luck can spell doom for your party...:( And elemental resistance is quite rare at 1st lv...
CroBob 10-31-06, 03:53 AM	I didn't intend to imply that the baby was innocent, only that the PCs have no reason to think it's parent won't chase them down, even if it actually won't. If they did happen to have that knowledge, I still don't see why one of the first things they'd do in their careers is go fight a dragon. Even a very small one. I'm not saying it cannot happen, just that it's something that should seriously be thought through before implemented.
Vanigo 10-31-06, 10:11 PM	My favourite case would be a ambush where the party of 12th level characters were anihhilated by 3 ducks.. yes DUCKS. All right, you're going to have to explain that. I mean, I don't think ducks would even have any attacks, and even if they did it'd take, like, 75 rounds of attacks to kill the party mage, let alone anyone else.
KurenaiYami 10-31-06, 10:34 PM	All right, you're going to have to explain that. I mean, I don't think ducks would even have any attacks, and even if they did it'd take, like, 75 rounds of attacks to kill the party mage, let alone anyone else. Unless they were fully corpse-crafted and Fire Embalmed Zombie Half Fiend Gargantuan Legendary Ducks!
bruiserdeck 11-01-06, 12:13 AM	... named Howard.