Area-specific damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Area-specific damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rafe_113
06-13-07, 10:16 AM Hey guys. I was thinking about using area specific damage in my next campaign and was wondering what you guys thought about it.
Magrus
06-13-07, 10:20 AM Wonderful concept, how do you plan to implement it? Implementing it in a balanced way that doesn't hurt game play is something I have yet to be able to find out how to do. Hence, I avoid it.
Kaligrad
06-13-07, 10:34 AM Critical hits are supposed to represent this kind of damage areas.

The problem with more detailed damage models is that they almost always cause the PC's more trouble than the monsters they face. After all, the monsters only have to die in one combat; the PC's have to live with their damage.
PhantomTrain
06-13-07, 10:40 AM I have tried it, as I suspect most people have, but there are two problems with it that make it virtually impossible.

The first problem is the question of AC. AC takes into account your total defensive effort. What is a person's eye-AC? How about their face-AC. Neck-AC? Does your shield count? Surely, if someone was hitting me in the eye and I had a big piece of flat metal, I would try to protect myself with it. What about head-from-behind-AC? Does armor count? What about Hit Points? How many hit points does an eye have, as opposed to the whole body? How much damage can a person's figer sustain before it breaks or is severed? For that matter, does armor count against finger-AC? Surely plate-mail has gauntlets, but are they as protective as the full suit of armor? Partial armor bonus? Penalty to hit? Hit point dividens? What about permanently severing body parts? How many hit points to the thick bones of a person's leg have? Can magical effects be targeted at specific body parts? Is the damage permanent, or once the hand has suffered its hit points in damage, does it come off or remain unusable. Can heal spells restore broken body parts, or do you need regeneration?

Ugh.

Problem number two shows up as soon as you are able to accurately and fairly answer all the questions problem number one poses. Mainly, it's this: PCs might love taking a -10 to hit the AC of an opponent's eyes to blind him or the -8 to sever an opponent's hand, but what happens to your little PCs when the enemies figure out that all they need to do is take a -10 to hit the PC's eyes and blind them permanently? How about the fighter that loses a hand in the first round of combat. Is he a lefty or a righty? Which hand did he loose? PCs are nowhere near as disposable as their enemy counterparts. Hit location and permanent injury rules (and why have one without the other? It makes even less sense) might make fights a little easier for the PCs in the short-term, but inevitably gimp them in the long term. If nothing else, they're going to waste a lot of time finding clerics to regenerate lost limbs and regrow their eyes.

The way I handle it is this: Players gain no combat bonus or penalty from describing their actions as targeting vitals. It's all in the description. I like my players to feel like their characters have a lot of 'cool' potential, so I say you can describe your attack any way you like, as long as you realize you're not getting an actual bonus from it. In that way, the phrase 'I attack' and 'I lunge with my rapier, but my intention is to drop below his guard suddenly and spring upward, burying the tip of the blade into the seam between his helmet and his armor' are rolled exactly the same way, but doesn't the second one just sound and feel better? And as a reward for my players going through all that trouble, I secretly keep track of who is excellent at descriptive attacks and give them just a little bit of good karma (maybe giving them a magic item that suits them well rather than giving them a random one next time they get loot). Never enough to make them far-and-away better than everyone else in the party, but, again, enough so their character feels good to play. Eventually, everyone catches a little of the fever and I now have a campaign of stellar roleplayers, from that tiny little rule.
MikeR7716
06-13-07, 11:04 AM Already mentioned, but good to reinforce: Criticals to players last longer than criticals to monsters. You have to balance the "cool" effect of breaking a villian's leg and him surrendering vs. the drain on the party of lugging around a party member with a broken leg.

We had a lot of fun with crit tables from the 2nd ed Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. You would have to tweak it a bit to work with the new critical damage in 3rd ed. A possibly helpful house rule is that a called shot (at -4) doesn't automatically break a leg. What it does is focus the critical damage IF a critical occurs. (The PO:C&T had progressive damage tables, based on location and effect rolls that pitted weapon size vs. opponent size).

The PO crit tables were fun because they not only dealt with weapon types, they offered criticals for failed saves (fire, electricity, acid, magic force). These crits were rare in game play, but it gave a whole new respect for magic missile.
Hydryh
06-13-07, 11:20 AM ...In that way, the phrase 'I attack' and 'I lunge with my rapier, but my intention is to drop below his guard suddenly and spring upward, burying the tip of the blade into the seam between his helmet and his armor' are rolled exactly the same way, but doesn't the second one just sound and feel better? And as a reward for my players going through all that trouble, I secretly keep track of who is excellent at descriptive attacks and give them just a little bit of good karma (maybe giving them a magic item that suits them well rather than giving them a random one next time they get loot). Never enough to make them far-and-away better than everyone else in the party, but, again, enough so their character feels good to play. Eventually, everyone catches a little of the fever and I now have a campaign of stellar roleplayers, from that tiny little rule.

I love this idea, and am stealing it to use in my next campaign!

*rolls Sleight of Hand... :dice: *

A 1?! What the :censored: ?
Salla
06-13-07, 11:39 AM Well, PhantomTrain wins the thread, so I'll just let his/her post stand.
Hugin
06-13-07, 11:44 AM We had a lot of fun with crit tables from the 2nd ed Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. You would have to tweak it a bit to work with the new critical damage in 3rd ed. A possibly helpful house rule is that a called shot (at -4) doesn't automatically break a leg. What it does is focus the critical damage IF a critical occurs. (The PO:C&T had progressive damage tables, based on location and effect rolls that pitted weapon size vs. opponent size).
We still use these tables - the players just love pulling them out when a critical is confirmed. You do have to tweak it a bit as mentioned above. I use a DC 20 FORT save to avoid the possible extra effects given on the chart; the damage is done as normal, just the effects may be avoided by the save.

Generally, the location is rolled randomly on the chart, but sometimes I'll make exceptions. For instance, last session we had a lone character (suspected of being a bandit) being questioned by the party. Some of the PCs had their bows aimed (one said aimed at the leg) and ready in case the questioning went bad and the bandit tried to escape.

As one of the PCs approached the bandit to secure him with rope, the bandit grabbed his dagger and struck the PC. The PC who said her bow was aimed at the leg confirmed a critical. Instead of rolling for the location of the hit I just said the leg. She ended up shattering the poor bandit's knee! The players thought it was awesome! The PC actually approached the bandit on the ground and said with full sincerity, "oh my, sorry about that". Very memorable moment.
Rafe_113
06-13-07, 12:28 PM Cool. If I use it, and that is a big if, I thought it would be most simple to keep it restrained to crits only, and then let the dice decide by percentages where the hit lands. Arms, legs, head or torso.

As an example....The fighter of the party rolls a crit against a bugbear and confirms. I would roll the % dice to determine where his hit landed and apply a penalty accordingly.

If the hit landed on the arms, then the bugbear will take a -2 to hit and damage, as well as any skills that would require the use of arms or hands, i.e. use rope, climb, ect.

If the hit landed on a leg, then the bugbears movement would be reduced by 10 feet, his dex bonus to AC would be cut by 1/2 as well as taking a -2 to the appropriate skills, i.e run, jump, ect...

If the critical hit lands on the torso, then the bugbear will loose HP equal to his CON modifier per round as though it were bleeding to death.

If the blow strikes the head, the the Bugbear must make a Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 damage inflicted or be stuned for 1d3 rounds.

I think, in this way, it stays fair because it is always left to the dice to decide. And, in turn, stays simple.
RobbyPants
06-13-07, 12:43 PM I've tried similar systems before too, and abandoned them. Even if it seems fairly balanced, you run into the issues of increased bookkeeping. Most people don't think the effect is worth the extra effort.

Plus, as soon as you allow in called shots, a single first level spell blows your system out of the water: True Strike. Suddenly, that drastic penalty to hit the eye, head, or whatever, is totally negated!
Hugin
06-13-07, 12:52 PM I've tried similar systems before too, and abandoned them. Even if it seems fairly balanced, you run into the issues of increased bookkeeping. Most people don't think the effect is worth the extra effort.
Rafe_113's idea's seem sound, and his group won't know if they like it are not until they try it. If it adds some enjoyment for them, great, if not, their D&D experience has been broadened.

Plus, as soon as you allow in called shots, a single first level spell blows your system out of the water: True Strike. Suddenly, that drastic penalty to hit the eye, head, or whatever, is totally negated!
I don't think this will be an issue since he said "...it is always left to the dice to decide". It is definately an important warning, though, and it's good to be aware of.
Rafe_113
06-13-07, 01:04 PM Absolutley. But, as I said, the PC or monsters won't be able to target a specific area, just a specific creature. If they roll a crit, then the dice will decide where the blow lands.

And you are right, it may be a bit more bookkeeping, but I don't usually run a combat-intensive campaign. I try run a campaign that runs about 60% combat and 40% political intrigue and character developement, because that is how the PC's like it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rafe_113 06-13-07, 10:16 AM	Hey guys. I was thinking about using area specific damage in my next campaign and was wondering what you guys thought about it.
Magrus 06-13-07, 10:20 AM	Wonderful concept, how do you plan to implement it? Implementing it in a balanced way that doesn't hurt game play is something I have yet to be able to find out how to do. Hence, I avoid it.
Kaligrad 06-13-07, 10:34 AM	Critical hits are supposed to represent this kind of damage areas. The problem with more detailed damage models is that they almost always cause the PC's more trouble than the monsters they face. After all, the monsters only have to die in one combat; the PC's have to live with their damage.
PhantomTrain 06-13-07, 10:40 AM	I have tried it, as I suspect most people have, but there are two problems with it that make it virtually impossible. The first problem is the question of AC. AC takes into account your total defensive effort. What is a person's eye-AC? How about their face-AC. Neck-AC? Does your shield count? Surely, if someone was hitting me in the eye and I had a big piece of flat metal, I would try to protect myself with it. What about head-from-behind-AC? Does armor count? What about Hit Points? How many hit points does an eye have, as opposed to the whole body? How much damage can a person's figer sustain before it breaks or is severed? For that matter, does armor count against finger-AC? Surely plate-mail has gauntlets, but are they as protective as the full suit of armor? Partial armor bonus? Penalty to hit? Hit point dividens? What about permanently severing body parts? How many hit points to the thick bones of a person's leg have? Can magical effects be targeted at specific body parts? Is the damage permanent, or once the hand has suffered its hit points in damage, does it come off or remain unusable. Can heal spells restore broken body parts, or do you need regeneration? Ugh. Problem number two shows up as soon as you are able to accurately and fairly answer all the questions problem number one poses. Mainly, it's this: PCs might love taking a -10 to hit the AC of an opponent's eyes to blind him or the -8 to sever an opponent's hand, but what happens to your little PCs when the enemies figure out that all they need to do is take a -10 to hit the PC's eyes and blind them permanently? How about the fighter that loses a hand in the first round of combat. Is he a lefty or a righty? Which hand did he loose? PCs are nowhere near as disposable as their enemy counterparts. Hit location and permanent injury rules (and why have one without the other? It makes even less sense) might make fights a little easier for the PCs in the short-term, but inevitably gimp them in the long term. If nothing else, they're going to waste a lot of time finding clerics to regenerate lost limbs and regrow their eyes. The way I handle it is this: Players gain no combat bonus or penalty from describing their actions as targeting vitals. It's all in the description. I like my players to feel like their characters have a lot of 'cool' potential, so I say you can describe your attack any way you like, as long as you realize you're not getting an actual bonus from it. In that way, the phrase 'I attack' and 'I lunge with my rapier, but my intention is to drop below his guard suddenly and spring upward, burying the tip of the blade into the seam between his helmet and his armor' are rolled exactly the same way, but doesn't the second one just sound and feel better? And as a reward for my players going through all that trouble, I secretly keep track of who is excellent at descriptive attacks and give them just a little bit of good karma (maybe giving them a magic item that suits them well rather than giving them a random one next time they get loot). Never enough to make them far-and-away better than everyone else in the party, but, again, enough so their character feels good to play. Eventually, everyone catches a little of the fever and I now have a campaign of stellar roleplayers, from that tiny little rule.
MikeR7716 06-13-07, 11:04 AM	Already mentioned, but good to reinforce: Criticals to players last longer than criticals to monsters. You have to balance the "cool" effect of breaking a villian's leg and him surrendering vs. the drain on the party of lugging around a party member with a broken leg. We had a lot of fun with crit tables from the 2nd ed Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. You would have to tweak it a bit to work with the new critical damage in 3rd ed. A possibly helpful house rule is that a called shot (at -4) doesn't automatically break a leg. What it does is focus the critical damage IF a critical occurs. (The PO:C&T had progressive damage tables, based on location and effect rolls that pitted weapon size vs. opponent size). The PO crit tables were fun because they not only dealt with weapon types, they offered criticals for failed saves (fire, electricity, acid, magic force). These crits were rare in game play, but it gave a whole new respect for magic missile.
Hydryh 06-13-07, 11:20 AM	...In that way, the phrase 'I attack' and 'I lunge with my rapier, but my intention is to drop below his guard suddenly and spring upward, burying the tip of the blade into the seam between his helmet and his armor' are rolled exactly the same way, but doesn't the second one just sound and feel better? And as a reward for my players going through all that trouble, I secretly keep track of who is excellent at descriptive attacks and give them just a little bit of good karma (maybe giving them a magic item that suits them well rather than giving them a random one next time they get loot). Never enough to make them far-and-away better than everyone else in the party, but, again, enough so their character feels good to play. Eventually, everyone catches a little of the fever and I now have a campaign of stellar roleplayers, from that tiny little rule. I love this idea, and am stealing it to use in my next campaign! rolls Sleight of Hand... :dice: A 1?! What the :censored: ?
Salla 06-13-07, 11:39 AM	Well, PhantomTrain wins the thread, so I'll just let his/her post stand.
Hugin 06-13-07, 11:44 AM	We had a lot of fun with crit tables from the 2nd ed Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. You would have to tweak it a bit to work with the new critical damage in 3rd ed. A possibly helpful house rule is that a called shot (at -4) doesn't automatically break a leg. What it does is focus the critical damage IF a critical occurs. (The PO:C&T had progressive damage tables, based on location and effect rolls that pitted weapon size vs. opponent size). We still use these tables - the players just love pulling them out when a critical is confirmed. You do have to tweak it a bit as mentioned above. I use a DC 20 FORT save to avoid the possible extra effects given on the chart; the damage is done as normal, just the effects may be avoided by the save. Generally, the location is rolled randomly on the chart, but sometimes I'll make exceptions. For instance, last session we had a lone character (suspected of being a bandit) being questioned by the party. Some of the PCs had their bows aimed (one said aimed at the leg) and ready in case the questioning went bad and the bandit tried to escape. As one of the PCs approached the bandit to secure him with rope, the bandit grabbed his dagger and struck the PC. The PC who said her bow was aimed at the leg confirmed a critical. Instead of rolling for the location of the hit I just said the leg. She ended up shattering the poor bandit's knee! The players thought it was awesome! The PC actually approached the bandit on the ground and said with full sincerity, "oh my, sorry about that". Very memorable moment.
Rafe_113 06-13-07, 12:28 PM	Cool. If I use it, and that is a big if, I thought it would be most simple to keep it restrained to crits only, and then let the dice decide by percentages where the hit lands. Arms, legs, head or torso. As an example....The fighter of the party rolls a crit against a bugbear and confirms. I would roll the % dice to determine where his hit landed and apply a penalty accordingly. If the hit landed on the arms, then the bugbear will take a -2 to hit and damage, as well as any skills that would require the use of arms or hands, i.e. use rope, climb, ect. If the hit landed on a leg, then the bugbears movement would be reduced by 10 feet, his dex bonus to AC would be cut by 1/2 as well as taking a -2 to the appropriate skills, i.e run, jump, ect... If the critical hit lands on the torso, then the bugbear will loose HP equal to his CON modifier per round as though it were bleeding to death. If the blow strikes the head, the the Bugbear must make a Fort save equal to 10 + 1/2 damage inflicted or be stuned for 1d3 rounds. I think, in this way, it stays fair because it is always left to the dice to decide. And, in turn, stays simple.
RobbyPants 06-13-07, 12:43 PM	I've tried similar systems before too, and abandoned them. Even if it seems fairly balanced, you run into the issues of increased bookkeeping. Most people don't think the effect is worth the extra effort. Plus, as soon as you allow in called shots, a single first level spell blows your system out of the water: True Strike. Suddenly, that drastic penalty to hit the eye, head, or whatever, is totally negated!
Hugin 06-13-07, 12:52 PM	I've tried similar systems before too, and abandoned them. Even if it seems fairly balanced, you run into the issues of increased bookkeeping. Most people don't think the effect is worth the extra effort. Rafe_113's idea's seem sound, and his group won't know if they like it are not until they try it. If it adds some enjoyment for them, great, if not, their D&D experience has been broadened. Plus, as soon as you allow in called shots, a single first level spell blows your system out of the water: True Strike. Suddenly, that drastic penalty to hit the eye, head, or whatever, is totally negated! I don't think this will be an issue since he said "...it is always left to the dice to decide". It is definately an important warning, though, and it's good to be aware of.
Rafe_113 06-13-07, 01:04 PM	Absolutley. But, as I said, the PC or monsters won't be able to target a specific area, just a specific creature. If they roll a crit, then the dice will decide where the blow lands. And you are right, it may be a bit more bookkeeping, but I don't usually run a combat-intensive campaign. I try run a campaign that runs about 60% combat and 40% political intrigue and character developement, because that is how the PC's like it.