Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bomaz 03-20-05, 04:04 AM	My PCs use stone shape to create a 1*1 inch and then as long as possible, this results in a very narrow and extremly long tunnel and then they use soften earth and stone in this tunnel creating a big piece of mud that they dig out with a few summons and other things this means they with 2 spells get a very long tunnel. one stoneshape makes for a 204 ft tunnel. they use a few stoneshapes per day CAN THEY DO THIS BY THE RULES?
Tenzhi 03-20-05, 04:18 AM	The Soften Earth and Stone spell will only allow them to soften 1 to 4 feet of the substance in depth per casting (I would say 1 foot for stone as it is dependent on the toughness of the material softened). This depth is not affected by level regarded of how much surface area they can affect. Which makes the spell not very useful for creating long tunnels all in one casting unless you're a pixie. Of course, stone affected by Stoneshape could also be considered worked stone, which renders Soften Earth and Stone completely ineffective.
J Milburn 03-20-05, 04:35 AM	sorry- I miss understand you. How do they make a tunnle out of a long tube?
Tenzhi 03-20-05, 04:47 AM	sorry- I miss understand you. How do they make a tunnle out of a long tube? Well, in theory, they cast Soften Earth and Stone on the entire surface area of the tube. Which would turn the stone into clay at a depth of 1 to 4 feet creating a clay plug with a 2 to 8 foot (it should be closer to 2') diameter that can be dug out much more easily than stone. The original poster is making the mistake of allowing them to turn the stone to mud rather than clay, and he's apparently allowing them to do it at too large of a diameter.
bomaz 03-20-05, 04:48 AM	they soften everything out of the tube in 4 ft depth. making it an 8 ft diameter cylinder that they dig out. the diameter is correct, 4 ft from the thin tunnel, mahing it 8 ft diameter.
bomaz 03-20-05, 04:50 AM	they need only multiple cast soften earth and stone.
Tenzhi 03-20-05, 04:54 AM	they need only multiple cast soften earth and stone. But they'll have to figure out a way to dig out 200' of clay (or mud) with a 2' diameter before they can effectively cast it again. And even if they do, it won't go as deep on successive castings as the surface area will be larger at a shorter depth. And then there's the aforementioned fact that it doesn't work on worked stone anyway, and Stoneshaped stone has technically been worked.
krichaiushii 03-25-05, 11:20 PM	Perhaps the god(s) of elemental earth take affront at such abuse of their prime element. Or the god(s) of the assorted mining races (dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, etc) take affront at the lack of proper mining being done and declare a holy war against the PCs. A group of miners may decide that the PCs threaten their livelihood and decide to teach them a lesson. Are all of these magical tunnels sturdy and trustworthy, or might they collapse under the weight of the above stone? What happens if they tunnel into water, magma, a steam vent, or a pocket of natural gas? Fiction is full of stories involving miners accidentally freeing something terrible. What's to stop the PCs from doing the same?
Tusz 03-25-05, 11:30 PM	Another thing to note: most shapable spells (I'm not sure about this one) have a minimum dimension of 5' cubes. No long 1" tubes.
The Shaman 03-26-05, 12:20 AM	My PCs use stone shape to create a 1*1 inch and then as long as possible, this results in a very narrow and extremly long tunnel and then they use soften earth and stone in this tunnel creating a big piece of mud that they dig out with a few summons and other things this means they with 2 spells get a very long tunnel. Where are they putting the tailings? Once you loosen that material and dig it out, it occupies about 1.5-times its original volume as it's no longer densely compacted. Where is all that spoil going?
TheRedRobedWizard 03-26-05, 08:52 AM	I guess my question would be: "Why the crap does this even matter?" Seriously, they've dug a tunnel. So what? What's so important about this tunnel that you're worried this much? Are they tunnelling to the center of the earth, and you want to make it harder? -TRRW
yeknom 03-26-05, 08:59 AM	My PCs use stone shape to create a 1*1 inch and then as long as possible, this results in a very narrow and extremly long tunnel and then they use soften earth and stone in this tunnel creating a big piece of mud that they dig out with a few summons and other things this means they with 2 spells get a very long tunnel. one stoneshape makes for a 204 ft tunnel. they use a few stoneshapes per day CAN THEY DO THIS BY THE RULES? You might consider what they are doing as being 'fine detail' and if that is the case the spell won't work, or at least not exactly as they desire it to work. Alternately, you might wish to have the PC's make some sort of craft check to see if they can actually create the tunnel.
Thelandrach 03-26-05, 09:31 AM	All the natural stone underground maps I've seen have had underground rivers in them...
mcnoo 03-26-05, 10:00 AM	Perhaps the god(s) of elemental earth take affront at such abuse of their prime element. Or the god(s) of the assorted mining races (dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, etc) take affront at the lack of proper mining being done and declare a holy war against the PCs. Am I the only person who finds this sort of approach beyond awful in many ways? The PCs found a good way of doing something, they're feeling damn proud of themselves, and you use the utlimate cop out option, no fun at all to play. However, underground rivers or unstable celins mentioned above would make a good deterrent. Also, it depends on what they're trying to do. If they aren't that deep underground, have a foundation to a building in the way, cant do the worked stone. Also remember that the stuff they take out of the tunnel has to go somwehere, and theres a lot of it.
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-26-05, 10:14 AM	As to the depth issue, are we using the beginning of the tunnel for the basis of our "depth" measurement? I think the PC's could argue the depth should be based off of the sides of the 1"*1" tube. 2' in either direction would provide a largish hole. The problem, apart from the tailings, is what is keeping this tunnel up? With no real support a rapid change in structural support (as compared to the long, slow erosion of an underground river) begs for a cave in. Are they creating or putting into place some sort of wooden trusses or other support?
Crossover-Chronicler 03-26-05, 01:35 PM	Am I the only person who finds this sort of approach beyond awful in many ways? The PCs found a good way of doing something, they're feeling damn proud of themselves, and you use the utlimate cop out option, no fun at all to play.No, I consider moments like that a good time to ditch the DM and start running my own campaigns again... Maybe that's why I never get to play... :weep:
bomaz 04-03-05, 09:53 AM	As to the depth issue, are we using the beginning of the tunnel for the basis of our "depth" measurement? I think the PC's could argue the depth should be based off of the sides of the 1"*1" tube. 2' in either direction would provide a largish hole. The problem, apart from the tailings, is what is keeping this tunnel up? With no real support a rapid change in structural support (as compared to the long, slow erosion of an underground river) begs for a cave in. Are they creating or putting into place some sort of wooden trusses or other support? they aren't putting in anything to hold it up. but e are talking rock here this means that they basicly have a arch over the tunnel. that will keep most stuf up
snowlynx 04-03-05, 12:20 PM	I'd probably judge that once they had made the initial tiny tunnel, it was 'worked stone'. Still, they have ways of still using the tunnels (either then can find ways to shrink themselves, or can just use the soften earth and mud to start their journey instead of making the initial tunnel.) sounds like they're being pretty inventive with spells, and still trying to use them to correct way. Keep in mind summon spells are pretty pitiful in terms of duration- what sort of creature are they summoning (that can just dig so quickly in the minute or so of its existance)? You might ask the where they're putting the mud, too. They will want to use either another creature or magic, or themselves, to move it out of the tunnel so it's not left behind (letting them pass though, perhaps, but not making a permanent tunnel.)
Vyvyan Basterd 04-03-05, 01:06 PM	You are allowing them to use stone shape beyond its capabilities. The spell only works on pieces of stone up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft. per level. Unworked stone walls underground are most likely part of a contiguos chunck of rock thousands, if not millions of cubic feet. The spell would not work to shape such a large object. This has been our group's interpretation of the spell.
Mr_Smiley 04-03-05, 01:25 PM	they aren't putting in anything to hold it up. but e are talking rock here this means that they basicly have a arch over the tunnel. that will keep most stuf up Are they digging through a solid block of granite or something? In any sort of tunnel you NEED to have supports up because normal ground is never 100% rock. Even tunnels through a solid mountain need supports or the entire thing will cave in.
WolfSong 04-03-05, 03:52 PM	The other thing to remember in the Stone shape spell is that they volumn they are working is not the hollow tube itself but a volumn of stone around it. So simply put, you could say that instead of working a 1"x1" area they are really working a 3"x3" section to create a section of stone with a hollow tube in it, which means the length would be nly 1/9th of what they are currently doing.
mercurial67 04-03-05, 04:17 PM	Two things of note. First, as Vyvyan Basterd stated, you affect 10 cu ft + 1 cu ft/level of stone meaning as a 7th level caster, you can affect a 17cu ft area - NOT 17cu ft total. There is a subtle difference between the two. Second, the spell allows you to SHAPE stone, not disolve or disentegrate it. This means you could draw it out into a long tube, but you still have the same mass & had to have a clear space to shape the tube into. You can't just open up a tunnel in the stone because it has to go somewhere when you open that tunnel. Think of it as blasting. If you use the spell to "open" a tunnel, all that rock is still there, it has just been seperated from the walls. Now it has to be hauled out. Bracing ISN'T a problem though because you can use the spell to create natural braces.
Wayward Son 04-04-05, 10:05 AM	Bracing ISN'T a problem though because you can use the spell to create natural braces. I would also assign a Profession(Miner) or Knowledge(Stonecraft or Mining) check to properly craft the braces in the required spacing and strength for the tunnel. Also, this technique brings up a number of potential encounters. What if there is an earth elemental passing through that stretch of rock when they shape it? Or a Xorn? Or a half-dozen Thoqqua? I imagine any of these creatures would consider it an "attack", and respond in kind. It shouldn't happen every time, but even once should make them more cautious about the technique.
StormKnight 04-04-05, 11:28 AM	I guess my question would be: "Why the crap does this even matter?" Seriously, they've dug a tunnel. So what? What's so important about this tunnel that you're worried this much? Are they tunnelling to the center of the earth, and you want to make it harder? -TRRW Am I the only one that agrees with this guy??? Really, what use are they putting this too that makes this such a problem? PC: "Hey, I've got an idea, lets make a tunnel going to straight into the dragon's lair! Dragon: "Hmm, this little, few foot wide hole just appeared in the side of my lair. Sounds like someone's coming down it. Do I wait for them and pounce them when they get out, or just breath fire up into the hole and see what happens?"
Thoronmir 04-04-05, 01:23 PM	Bracing ISN'T a problem though because you can use the spell to create natural braces.If I understand what the PCs are doing, bracing is a problem since they only use the Stone Shape to "drill" a 1" diameter hole through a long distance of rock (BTW, unless the spell allows the caster to alter the qualities of the stone ... i.e., make it denser ... the volume of that 1" hole has to go somewhere). So, if they're using Stone Shape to also create bracing, all they get is a series of 1" high supports ... not much use when they expand the hole to 8 feet in diameter. I'm opposed to arbitrary reactions by the DM to any tactics employed by the PCs, as long as the PCs' actions are within the RAW. So, no, there will be no divine retribution for their usurpation of digging rights. However, there may well be practical consequences of this tactic. You're best off making it random ... setting a certain % chance that they encounter some problem per 50 feet they dig. There's been some good ideas already suggested, all reinforcing the truth that mining is bloody dangerous business. From an engineering perspective ... wait, I should first dust off my Civil Engineering diploma ... they are tunneling through the very foundation of whatever lies above. They are not building "natural arches" and the fact that rivers flow through underground tunnels is irrelevant. For one thing, natural underground rivers develop as a result of water eroding the weak points in the rock formation (cracks, seams, etc.) ... water does not blindly plow through the heart of the bedrock, it seeks the easiest course. Also, as someone already noted, subsurface conditions are never truly homogeneous ... anytime you dig without knowing what you're digging into, you risk collapse.
astute1 04-04-05, 01:43 PM	Am I the only person who finds this sort of approach beyond awful in many ways? The PCs found a good way of doing something, they're feeling damn proud of themselves, and you use the utlimate cop out option, no fun at all to play. No, I agree with you there. I think it's a really creative idea. I also think that it's beyond the abilities of the spells in question, but good thinking on the part of the PCs.
VirgilCaine 04-04-05, 02:03 PM	Am I the only one that agrees with this guy??? Really, what use are they putting this too that makes this such a problem? PC: "Hey, I've got an idea, lets make a tunnel going to straight into the dragon's lair! Dragon: "Hmm, this little, few foot wide hole just appeared in the side of my lair. Sounds like someone's coming down it. Do I wait for them and pounce them when they get out, or just breath fire up into the hole and see what happens?" Yeah, the OP left this part out, oddly enough. Where are they going, some treasure hoard or something?
bomaz 04-05-05, 06:33 AM	just passing by the whole dungeon and going straight to the treasure. jupp
Joe Khol 04-05-05, 07:43 AM	just passing by the whole dungeon and going straight to the treasure. jupp And they know where that is how? I agree with some of the other posters who say this is a perfectly smart thinking on the players part and as long as you keep within the limitations of the spells they are using and apply a little fair logic (i.e. they have to pass through some rooms and they're not going to be surprise anything in them, it is perfectly likely they'll hit water, gas, lava or something equally nasty, just because they bypass some monsters won't stop them investigating this interesting new tunnel and sneak up behind the slow and noisy digging party). Anyway, they're still going to be using several spells just getting from A to B, even if you're allowing for two spells per 204ft section.
Phrennzy 04-05-05, 09:55 AM	Just for kicks: Stone Shape Transmutation [Earth] Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level Duration: Instantaneous You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it’s possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn’t possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn’t work. Soften Earth and Stone Transmutation [Earth] Level: Drd 2, Earth 2 Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 10-ft. square/level; see text Duration: Instantaneous When this spell is cast, all natural, undressed earth or stone in the spell’s area is softened. Wet earth becomes thick mud, dry earth becomes loose sand or dirt, and stone becomes soft clay that is easily molded or chopped. You affect a 10-footsquare area to a depth of 1 to 4 feet, depending on the toughness or resilience of the ground at that spot. Magical, enchanted, dressed, or worked stone cannot be affected. Earth or stone creatures are not affected. Stone softened into clay does not hinder movement, but it does allow characters to cut, shape, or excavate areas they may not have been able to affect before. While soften earth and stone does not affect dressed or worked stone, cavern ceilings or vertical surfaces such as cliff faces can be affected. Usually, this causes a moderate collapse or landslide as the loosened material peels away from the face of the wall or roof and falls. Eh, I'd let them do it, as long as they can deal with all the stone/dirt/mud coming out of the hole. Stone Shape doesn't get rid of the stone, so that 204' x 1" x 1" has to go somewhere. And then they still have to dig out the Softened Stone. Wouldn't it just be easier to teleport in?
Thoronmir 04-05-05, 01:33 PM	You affect a 10-footsquare area to a depth of 1 to 4 feet, depending on the toughness or resilience of the ground at that spotI quoted part of the spell description that caught my eye. I think it's safe to assume that stone falls under the category of perhaps the toughest and/or most resilient ground to be softened (with compacted soil, loose soil, sand, etc., representing less difficult materials to soften). I also note that this spell is much more specific than most regarding the volume of the affected area, expressly limiting the maximum depth based on the material affected. So, IMO, Soften Earth and Stone would affect an area up to 10 square-feet per level but only 1 foot deep regardless of your level. Plugging that interpretation into the PCs' scheme results in a 1" diameter hole with a 2-foot diameter layer of clay after their first use of Soften Earth and Stone (assuming they can affect stone up to 1 foot "deep" around the circumference of the 1" hole). So, they would need to repeat this process at least twice to create a hole wide enough for PCs to crawl through (a 4-foot diameter hole) and twice more if they want to walk upright (an 8-foot diameter hole). Note that, since the circumference of the hole increases with each casting, the length of the hole affected would decrease with each casting (to stay within the 10 square-feet per level limit). Also, I'm not sure what level the Druid in question is, but the spell has limited range. If he's 20th level, the maximum range for Soften Earth and Stone is 75 feet. To affect stone any further than that, he would need to start moving into the tunnel. So, to pull off this trick, the PCs would have to excavate their way as they went. As has been noted, if they're not bracing the tunnel along the way, they risk collapse. Finally, how are they navigating underground? I have a hard time picturing the Druid using a transit and level to verify direction, distance, slope, etc., as they dig their way under the dungeon (this is where having Profession: Miner might come in handy). Since their general strategy seems to work under the RAW, I sure wouldn't punish them for their creative use of the spells, but I'd make sure they were operating within the limits of the spells they're using.
Wayward Son 04-06-05, 10:16 AM	I quoted part of the spell description that caught my eye. <snip> So, IMO, Soften Earth and Stone would affect an area up to 10 square-feet per level but only 1 foot deep regardless of your level Just to nit-pick, it's a "10-foot square per level", not "10 square-feet". 10 square-feet is a square measuring approximately 3.16 feet along each side, while in D&D measurements you are looking at a square 10 feet along each side. (If thinking miniatures, it's four 5-foot squares in two even columns and rows.) I have a feeling this is what you meant, but the geometry geeks among us can be sticklers for correct terminology. I agree, though, the tunnelling, while clever, is beyond the power of the spells in question. If it wasn't, why wouldn't dwarves just have a wizard prepare each new tunnel and quadruple their production?