Argh, should I exact punishment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Argh, should I exact punishment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sirot
08-17-05, 12:57 PM Going to finally start my second campaign (second level, 3 player, all CN (bard is going CG) party, Argh) and something has gone wrong =/ I gave each players 900 gold to work with for equipment an such, and nearly everyone (the Human sorcerer and Elven bard) got a horse but not the half-orc fighter who specialized in MOUNTED combat! He gave me a blank excuse he will steal one, and that ticked me off!

Now what should I do about it? I was thinking screwing him over by maybe having each horse have a brand of its owner.

On a side note: How do I prevent the alignment of chaotic stupid springing up?
VonStrakovich
08-17-05, 01:11 PM starting at 3rd level, the half orc needs back story as to why he has mounted combat and no horse at least. also, the starting gold is a representation of what a character of a given level has acquired in their career as an adventurer, not what they bought yesterday. just ask him to redo his equipment for the sake of ease of gameplay. oh and no it does not sound like you will be able to avoid chaotic stupid in this game, sorry.
RunningWilder
08-17-05, 01:21 PM Why should you punish him? Maybe the character can think up a reason for not starting off with a horse. Maybe his just died.

It makes sense if horses are branded, but only by sellers, not owners. Otherwise he'll steal from a seller. If the seller brands them, then there is nothing to identify which individual owns the horse. If they have multiple brands, he can easily forge one of his own. Having every horse in the world branded for it's particular owner makes as much sense as having every sword and blade marked in a similar way. It's like having a 20th level wizard who does nothing but watch for people who steal from the local blacksmith or potion seller.

Stealing the horse isn't chaotic stupid. If he wasn't allowed to steal at all, you should have declared that the party had to be good in alignment. You allowed them to plan neutral , now you have to deal with the consequences.
Sirot
08-17-05, 01:42 PM Note: Their all second level, not third. Read the main post =)

Anyhow, I already told all of my players to write up background for their characters, that player's was the shortest one written. I will go talk to him again, to see if I can get more background information out of him or sway him to get a horse.
Macgyver
08-17-05, 01:47 PM If you're orc fighter has a backstory of less than half of a page, you might be powergamer.

And... a lousy one for taking mounted combat without taking a mount.
Pyritefoolsgold
08-17-05, 04:24 PM Make stealing the horse an adventure in and of itself. First off, he has to find an unattended horse, then he has to get on it, make a handle animal check to make an unfamiliar horse do what he wants, then make a ride check, then outrun whoever might have seen him steal it. If stealing horses was easy, all PCs would be horse thieves.
loaba
08-17-05, 04:32 PM He is CN after all, stealing is well within his alignment. BTW, suggested starting gold for 3rd level is 2.7k. Why did you elect to go with only 900gp?
Tusz
08-17-05, 04:36 PM He is CN after all, stealing is well within his alignment. BTW, suggested starting gold for 3rd level is 2.7k. Why did you elect to go with only 900gp?
They're second level.
loaba
08-17-05, 04:38 PM If I could just learn to read... Okay, scratch that 2.7k remark, my bad.
High Octane
08-17-05, 04:49 PM Punishment? He hasnt done anything wrong for his character. He's getting a horse! He just wants to have a five finger discount!
Sirot
08-17-05, 04:55 PM Make stealing the horse an adventure in and of itself. First off, he has to find an unattended horse, then he has to get on it, make a handle animal check to make an unfamiliar horse do what he wants, then make a ride check, then outrun whoever might have seen him steal it. If stealing horses was easy, all PCs would be horse thieves.

I will try that, thanks.
UltimateReality
08-17-05, 05:33 PM If he wasn't allowed to steal at all, you should have declared that the party had to be good in alignment.Common misconception. Stealing is not evil or neutral in and of itself. It is not lawful, though, and thus a chaotic act.

Personally, yeah, ask the player why he wants this. He may just think it'd be cool to figure out how to steal a horse and rp it. Or he could be a cheap bastard, one of the two. ;) How much gold does he have leftover? What did the extra bits that he could've spent on a horse go to?
RunningWilder
08-17-05, 06:18 PM Common misconception. Stealing is not evil or neutral in and of itself. It is not lawful, though, and thus a chaotic act.

Personally, yeah, ask the player why he wants this. He may just think it'd be cool to figure out how to steal a horse and rp it. Or he could be a cheap bastard, one of the two. ;) How much gold does he have leftover? What did the extra bits that he could've spent on a horse go to?

Yes, but a Chaotic Good character is much less likely to steal a horse because he wants one. Chaotic Neutral on the other hand...
UltimateReality
08-17-05, 07:12 PM Yes, but a Chaotic Good character is much less likely to steal a horse because he wants one. Chaotic Neutral on the other hand...Exactly. It's the motivations behind the theft that determine where it falls on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis.
RunningWilder
08-17-05, 07:22 PM Exactly. It's the motivations behind the theft that determine where it falls on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis.

Which goes back to my original point. If the DM didn't want the character to steal a horse just because he wanted one, he should have forced the party to be good. If they were good, they wouldn't steal the horse simply because he wants one.
Phrennzy
08-17-05, 07:35 PM This guys BS answer of "I'll steal my horse" has nothing to do with his PC. It has everything to do with using all of his starting gold for better equipment and then filling in the mount blank with "steal horse".

Lame.
Milandros
08-17-05, 08:02 PM While stealing is not an evil act in itself, deliberately taking something away from someone that they have worked hard for is pretty close to it, unless you have a really good reason. If somebody emptied my bank account, I'd certainly not think it was a normal "neutral" act. Neutral is what most people are, after all - very few of us are "good" to the point of throwing ourselves in front of the bullet, or even something small, like spending just a single year from our lives working in an orphanage for charity.

But to the point:

Warhorses are expensive possessions - most would be properly taken care of. Is this character willing to murder a stableboy to steal a noble's warhorse?

A riding horse might be easier - might - but isn't nearly as good with all those mounted combat feats.

Horse thieves don't tend to have great reputations, either. Horses aren't often left completely unattended. If he steals one out of a field, it's likely to be a plough horse, not a riding horse.

And if it's easy to steal horses, the PCs are just as vulnerable to it as everyone else.

In fact, if you're starting them off without already knowing each other, maybe the horse he steals belongs to one of the other PCs... :D
Sjay1
08-17-05, 08:10 PM haha i understand your problem...you're more frustrated over the way he reacted then the fact that he is going to steal the horse...

I would think twice before you punish him, and especially consider if you want to punish his character or him?..
Te last one, in my opinion is wrong to do...

as a player defending another, i'd say why shouldn't he steal the horse..sounds like a creative mind, and he's certainly acting on behalf of his alignment.
Milandros
08-17-05, 08:16 PM I'm not sure all the other players are going to appreciate sitting around during the first game while he plays out stealing his horse, either. I also expect he's just being greedy here - he's hoping that he can say "oh, I stole a horse, ok?" and that his DM will say "ok".

Maybe you should consider starting them in a small village that doesn't have riding horses? Or even in the wild?

Edit: note that he didn't buy the horse and then play to steal some armour, or any of the other equipment he's carrying.
Sjay1
08-17-05, 08:48 PM haha i just thought of something nice....let them stumble upon a series of halfling villages...with riding dogs only..

that should be fun :D
Lord Ian Stark
08-17-05, 10:10 PM double post...
Lord Ian Stark
08-17-05, 10:11 PM Have him know the laws of the land are the death penalty to anyone who steals a horse. This isn't that far fetched as it happened in real history.

If he goes to steal the horse, he gets busted (Well make a roll but hard to beat) and viola. New character time. :P

Or have there be no unattended horses around. :D

Next time just minus the amount a horse costs from the characters starting gold and then tell the PC's they each start with a horse and whatever gold is left over.
Amphetryon
08-17-05, 10:37 PM First adventure is convincing the rest of the party to help him steal the horse, finding a good candidate, aka the local Noble's stable, and absconding the steed. Second adventure is escaping from the goons the Noble sends to recoup his horse. Third adventure is setting up in a new location, away from the Noble. Fourth can be dealing with the Noble's Scrying Wizards, etc. He's handed you a whole slew of ways to mess with the whole party at once. :D
20goingon1232
08-18-05, 12:55 AM If you're orc fighter has a backstory of less than half of a page, you might be powergamer.

And... a lousy one for taking mounted combat without taking a mount.
*scratch head*

Eh? Less than half a page is powergaming? There is a rule about this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sirot 08-17-05, 12:57 PM	Going to finally start my second campaign (second level, 3 player, all CN (bard is going CG) party, Argh) and something has gone wrong =/ I gave each players 900 gold to work with for equipment an such, and nearly everyone (the Human sorcerer and Elven bard) got a horse but not the half-orc fighter who specialized in MOUNTED combat! He gave me a blank excuse he will steal one, and that ticked me off! Now what should I do about it? I was thinking screwing him over by maybe having each horse have a brand of its owner. On a side note: How do I prevent the alignment of chaotic stupid springing up?
VonStrakovich 08-17-05, 01:11 PM	starting at 3rd level, the half orc needs back story as to why he has mounted combat and no horse at least. also, the starting gold is a representation of what a character of a given level has acquired in their career as an adventurer, not what they bought yesterday. just ask him to redo his equipment for the sake of ease of gameplay. oh and no it does not sound like you will be able to avoid chaotic stupid in this game, sorry.
RunningWilder 08-17-05, 01:21 PM	Why should you punish him? Maybe the character can think up a reason for not starting off with a horse. Maybe his just died. It makes sense if horses are branded, but only by sellers, not owners. Otherwise he'll steal from a seller. If the seller brands them, then there is nothing to identify which individual owns the horse. If they have multiple brands, he can easily forge one of his own. Having every horse in the world branded for it's particular owner makes as much sense as having every sword and blade marked in a similar way. It's like having a 20th level wizard who does nothing but watch for people who steal from the local blacksmith or potion seller. Stealing the horse isn't chaotic stupid. If he wasn't allowed to steal at all, you should have declared that the party had to be good in alignment. You allowed them to plan neutral , now you have to deal with the consequences.
Sirot 08-17-05, 01:42 PM	Note: Their all second level, not third. Read the main post =) Anyhow, I already told all of my players to write up background for their characters, that player's was the shortest one written. I will go talk to him again, to see if I can get more background information out of him or sway him to get a horse.
Macgyver 08-17-05, 01:47 PM	If you're orc fighter has a backstory of less than half of a page, you might be powergamer. And... a lousy one for taking mounted combat without taking a mount.
Pyritefoolsgold 08-17-05, 04:24 PM	Make stealing the horse an adventure in and of itself. First off, he has to find an unattended horse, then he has to get on it, make a handle animal check to make an unfamiliar horse do what he wants, then make a ride check, then outrun whoever might have seen him steal it. If stealing horses was easy, all PCs would be horse thieves.
loaba 08-17-05, 04:32 PM	He is CN after all, stealing is well within his alignment. BTW, suggested starting gold for 3rd level is 2.7k. Why did you elect to go with only 900gp?
Tusz 08-17-05, 04:36 PM	He is CN after all, stealing is well within his alignment. BTW, suggested starting gold for 3rd level is 2.7k. Why did you elect to go with only 900gp? They're second level.
loaba 08-17-05, 04:38 PM	If I could just learn to read... Okay, scratch that 2.7k remark, my bad.
High Octane 08-17-05, 04:49 PM	Punishment? He hasnt done anything wrong for his character. He's getting a horse! He just wants to have a five finger discount!
Sirot 08-17-05, 04:55 PM	Make stealing the horse an adventure in and of itself. First off, he has to find an unattended horse, then he has to get on it, make a handle animal check to make an unfamiliar horse do what he wants, then make a ride check, then outrun whoever might have seen him steal it. If stealing horses was easy, all PCs would be horse thieves. I will try that, thanks.
UltimateReality 08-17-05, 05:33 PM	If he wasn't allowed to steal at all, you should have declared that the party had to be good in alignment.Common misconception. Stealing is not evil or neutral in and of itself. It is not lawful, though, and thus a chaotic act. Personally, yeah, ask the player why he wants this. He may just think it'd be cool to figure out how to steal a horse and rp it. Or he could be a cheap bastard, one of the two. ;) How much gold does he have leftover? What did the extra bits that he could've spent on a horse go to?
RunningWilder 08-17-05, 06:18 PM	Common misconception. Stealing is not evil or neutral in and of itself. It is not lawful, though, and thus a chaotic act. Personally, yeah, ask the player why he wants this. He may just think it'd be cool to figure out how to steal a horse and rp it. Or he could be a cheap bastard, one of the two. ;) How much gold does he have leftover? What did the extra bits that he could've spent on a horse go to? Yes, but a Chaotic Good character is much less likely to steal a horse because he wants one. Chaotic Neutral on the other hand...
UltimateReality 08-17-05, 07:12 PM	Yes, but a Chaotic Good character is much less likely to steal a horse because he wants one. Chaotic Neutral on the other hand...Exactly. It's the motivations behind the theft that determine where it falls on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis.
RunningWilder 08-17-05, 07:22 PM	Exactly. It's the motivations behind the theft that determine where it falls on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis. Which goes back to my original point. If the DM didn't want the character to steal a horse just because he wanted one, he should have forced the party to be good. If they were good, they wouldn't steal the horse simply because he wants one.
Phrennzy 08-17-05, 07:35 PM	This guys BS answer of "I'll steal my horse" has nothing to do with his PC. It has everything to do with using all of his starting gold for better equipment and then filling in the mount blank with "steal horse". Lame.
Milandros 08-17-05, 08:02 PM	While stealing is not an evil act in itself, deliberately taking something away from someone that they have worked hard for is pretty close to it, unless you have a really good reason. If somebody emptied my bank account, I'd certainly not think it was a normal "neutral" act. Neutral is what most people are, after all - very few of us are "good" to the point of throwing ourselves in front of the bullet, or even something small, like spending just a single year from our lives working in an orphanage for charity. But to the point: Warhorses are expensive possessions - most would be properly taken care of. Is this character willing to murder a stableboy to steal a noble's warhorse? A riding horse might be easier - might - but isn't nearly as good with all those mounted combat feats. Horse thieves don't tend to have great reputations, either. Horses aren't often left completely unattended. If he steals one out of a field, it's likely to be a plough horse, not a riding horse. And if it's easy to steal horses, the PCs are just as vulnerable to it as everyone else. In fact, if you're starting them off without already knowing each other, maybe the horse he steals belongs to one of the other PCs... :D
Sjay1 08-17-05, 08:10 PM	haha i understand your problem...you're more frustrated over the way he reacted then the fact that he is going to steal the horse... I would think twice before you punish him, and especially consider if you want to punish his character or him?.. Te last one, in my opinion is wrong to do... as a player defending another, i'd say why shouldn't he steal the horse..sounds like a creative mind, and he's certainly acting on behalf of his alignment.
Milandros 08-17-05, 08:16 PM	I'm not sure all the other players are going to appreciate sitting around during the first game while he plays out stealing his horse, either. I also expect he's just being greedy here - he's hoping that he can say "oh, I stole a horse, ok?" and that his DM will say "ok". Maybe you should consider starting them in a small village that doesn't have riding horses? Or even in the wild? Edit: note that he didn't buy the horse and then play to steal some armour, or any of the other equipment he's carrying.
Sjay1 08-17-05, 08:48 PM	haha i just thought of something nice....let them stumble upon a series of halfling villages...with riding dogs only.. that should be fun :D
Lord Ian Stark 08-17-05, 10:10 PM	double post...
Lord Ian Stark 08-17-05, 10:11 PM	Have him know the laws of the land are the death penalty to anyone who steals a horse. This isn't that far fetched as it happened in real history. If he goes to steal the horse, he gets busted (Well make a roll but hard to beat) and viola. New character time. :P Or have there be no unattended horses around. :D Next time just minus the amount a horse costs from the characters starting gold and then tell the PC's they each start with a horse and whatever gold is left over.
Amphetryon 08-17-05, 10:37 PM	First adventure is convincing the rest of the party to help him steal the horse, finding a good candidate, aka the local Noble's stable, and absconding the steed. Second adventure is escaping from the goons the Noble sends to recoup his horse. Third adventure is setting up in a new location, away from the Noble. Fourth can be dealing with the Noble's Scrying Wizards, etc. He's handed you a whole slew of ways to mess with the whole party at once. :D
20goingon1232 08-18-05, 12:55 AM	If you're orc fighter has a backstory of less than half of a page, you might be powergamer. And... a lousy one for taking mounted combat without taking a mount. scratch head Eh? Less than half a page is powergaming? There is a rule about this?