Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WoT Fan 04-02-06, 09:10 PM	One of the players in my group was considering becoming an aristocrat at level 1. What adjustmants should be made to keep the party even? I feel that it should already be fairly even, with a d8 hit die, and a starting gold of 300. They have good BAB progression (ending at +15/+10/+5) but no class skills. Any ideas of how to balance it? I considered making him level 2, but worried about the 1000 free experiance, and an extra level for skills, and after leveling up just once he gets another feat... Any help appreciated. Thanks
Board_Rider 04-02-06, 09:13 PM	I would let him do it without reward. Warn him that he is seriously hurting himself and the partys power level in taking this class. Tell him survivability is going to be low and he has been warned.
Morwen 04-02-06, 09:18 PM	No class skills? The Aristocrat has Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge [any], Listen, Perform, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, and Survival as class skills (one of the very few classes to have Speak Language as a class skill, in fact), and they get 4+Int skill points per level as well. In my opinion, the Aristocrat is the best NPC class, and I've taken a level or two for roleplaying purposes several times. Doesn't seriously hamper either the character or the party, really.
WoT Fan 04-02-06, 09:26 PM	Class abilities*** Such as sneak attack, or spells. Sorry for the typo
Burgundy Lotus 04-02-06, 09:30 PM	If he sticks with Aristocrat for more then a level or two he'll definately feel it, but he isn't too underpowered at 1st or 2nd level as long as he's careful about how he plays. With luck and a little warning he'll switch out to another class at that point, if not it's a learning experience (hopefully) and do better next time, either in class choice or aristocrat tactics.
tiercel 04-03-06, 01:02 AM	You could point him at the Swashbuckler class, if you have Complete Warrior. It gets a pretty decent skillset, full BAB, and some decent class abilities in the first few levels. You could look at it as a PC version of Aristocrat, if you liked.
Shavit 04-03-06, 02:32 AM	Well, I'll consider a player like that a blessing in disguise. You shouldn't "balance" him in abilities and so on, you can give him extra hooks and plots, as a merchant or king's son he can have many roleplaying options and thats the way I would reward him. BTW you can balance him in game by letting him gain more money and equipment from dad. Let him know that by choosing this class he gains ONLY respect and resources. :)
a_psh 04-03-06, 02:39 AM	I think the Aristocrat will start to get notably underpowered after level 3 or so. I would suggest either steering him towards rogue (they don't all have to be thieves or even sneaky, y'know) or bard ("oratory" is valid for bardic music), fighter, or some combination of the two, depending on whether he's mostly interested in skills or combat prowess. The 3e adaptation of Dragonlance (not sure if it's quite an official WotC product) has a "Noble" base class that provides a more feature-ful aristocrat, with some bard-like inspirational abilities. I recall not liking it when I saw it, though. Alternatively, you could let him take unmodified Aristocrat levels but give him a wealth kick each time he gains a level. Say it's from his estate or whatever.
Lincoln Hills 04-03-06, 03:10 PM	The Aristo can remain a 1st-level character, just like the rest of the party. In my opinion a "free level" - even though that's what the DMG recommends to make the CRs match - is not really necessary. The aristocrat has excellent weapon and armor proficiencies and can pinch-hit for a fighter until about 4th level. Further, the aristocrat's class skills are pretty handy - Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Survival and the Knowledge skills are all great to have available. The class doesn't stay competitive for very long - I recommend multiclassing into rogue or ranger - but it's not weak enough to require any real "compensation" for running one.
Snicker 04-03-06, 03:42 PM	Well, as others said, he should probably be alright (if a little tender) if he multiclasses early. He certainly doesn't need a level adjustment of -1. If you want to give him a little nudge just to make him even, though, you could be a little more generous with equipment. For instance, if he uses a scimitar, one of the early fights could just happen to include a druid wielding a masterwork scimitar. Or maybe the wizard they save much later on just happens to know how to keen a weapon, and he's willing to do it as thanks.
fatal error 04-03-06, 04:23 PM	I'd say either give him a good boost in treasure, or cobble together some class abilities. If 'aristocrats' in your world are more warlordish give him bonus feats every so often and a fighter BAB (basically a slightly weaker fighter with slightly better skills). If they're more merchant backstabby intrigue-like aristocrats, give him sneak attack and some roguish stuff. Or just have him multiclass out after 1-2 levels, but that seems like "Why even take it in the first place?"
pres_man 04-03-06, 04:40 PM	If you want a very minor boost, you could treat all NPC classes as favored class. Thus he could later multiclass in a couple of classes and not worry about his aristocrat levels messing him up.
KJW 04-03-06, 04:58 PM	Yeah, Pres_Man has a good suggestion, in fact I think that is going to be a new house rule for my campaigns. I have used a few levels of Aristocrat for NPCs before, but I have been using the Marshal class, it is on the site as a preview for the Miniatures Handbook if memory serves. I have my printout stuck in my copy of Complete Warrior, but it is a good charisma-based warrior. Still if you have a campaign that uses skills a lot like mine, then the Aristocrat is wonderful balance to some of the classes. If a PC of mine takes Aristocrat then I make them Nobility with the potential for inheriting titles and the like through roleplaying.
LordofIllusions 04-03-06, 05:00 PM	He may be better off taking the Noble class from The Dragonlance Campaign Setting v.3.5. That class was actually made for use as a player character. ~~~
Rosisha 04-03-06, 05:02 PM	well you could handle it the way I did and combine a seriously reduced "racial paragon" class from Unearthed Arcana with the NPC classes. I do that for the first two levels to sort of see where the characters come from. Level 0.25, and Level 0.5 and that leads to level 1 with some neat abilities and your full racial abilities. It was really funand the players enjoyed being commoners, and adepts, and so on that went out into the world and came back heroes. R
kelvinaw273 04-03-06, 05:11 PM	How about letting him have a Scion item, a magic heirloom that grows in power as he does? Also, aristocrats should have some other perks in society - in their own nation, any other aristocrat has to give them shelter if they need it, abide by the laws of hospitality etc. In a foreign land they may have diplomatic status. Enemies will strive to capture rather than kill him for a ransom. He will have the right to bear a coat of arms and employ retainers and personal troops (the rest of the party?), and a regular income from an estate somewhere or his family. He will 'know people' who are important - need to get a mesage to the king? No problem, I went to university with the seneschal's younger son ... I like the idea of all NPC classes being favoured classes for PC's too, it's a good one. Another idea is the 'Morphic Class'. Start ALL Pcs as Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat, Adept or Warrior, then when they 'level up' convert them to the PC class of their choice.
Edymnion 04-03-06, 05:16 PM	There's nothing wrong with being an Aristocrat at lvl 1, the increased wealth is actually a pretty darn big advantage at that level. Just so long as he takes up a PC class at lvl 2, he should be just fine. But yeah, the Noble class from Dragonlance is also quite good for what he's wanting as well.
Lokiyn 04-03-06, 05:34 PM	Your could try granting the Aristicrat a few social things At level 5 grant mentor [dmg2] with the stipulation that it is an npc retainer of the house at level 10 grant the aristocrat leadership for free At level 15 grant them landlord feat for free
InterSilva 04-03-06, 07:24 PM	There's a "Noble" class in the Dragonlance book, and it's basically the Aristocrat with class abilities and like a few other DL core classes, it isn't DL-speicifc and meshes perfectly with most other settings.
EldonG 04-03-06, 07:57 PM	What sort of aristocrat is he? If he comes from any sort of noble family, they likely *want* to keep him alive. Give him a retainer, who might be a warrior of a level or two lower, or even a fighter or ranger. He should be great for plot hooks and roleplaying opportunities, rocks on skills, and might even have a few favors he can call upon...or even be able to arrange for the merchant who gives him a break on his desired items! Lotsa possibilities - heck, if he's the son of a merchant prince, what kind of investments are possible? Might he own property? A family keep, maybe? What style of campaign do you run? If politics are involved, he might turn into the *most* powerful character! If you have Power of Faerun, it'll help!
allenchan 04-03-06, 08:14 PM	Someone already mentioned the Noble from Dragonlance, there's also the Noble from Star Wars d20. It, too, can be fairly easily adapted to dnd with a few small modifications.
Darth Sephiroth 04-03-06, 08:29 PM	Someone already mentioned the Noble from Dragonlance, there's also the Noble from Star Wars d20. It, too, can be fairly easily adapted to dnd with a few small modifications. Yeah, either one has basically the same feel while being more fitting for a PC as you go.
LordofIllusions 04-03-06, 10:45 PM	There's nothing wrong with being an Aristocrat at lvl 1, the increased wealth is actually a pretty darn big advantage at that level. Just so long as he takes up a PC class at lvl 2, he should be just fine. But yeah, the Noble class from Dragonlance is also quite good for what he's wanting as well. I had a friend of mine that would let player characters take NPC classes if they wished to do so. Why they would want to do something like that I don't know since the NPC classes are seriously underpowered as opposed to the regular PC classes. ~~~
allenchan 04-03-06, 11:01 PM	I had a friend of mine that would let player characters take NPC classes if they wished to do so. Why they would want to do something like that I don't know since the NPC classes are seriously underpowered as opposed to the regular PC classes. ~~~ A skill monkey rogue can actually gain a lot from taking a level of expert, but most would just take human paragon instead if it were an option.
Raven Dark 04-04-06, 12:08 AM	Dude, an Artistocrat 1/Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight X would be a rather kick ass build. Taking Aristocrat instead of Fighter moves the character's emphasis away from fighting and more towards skill versatility. Besides, there is nothing better than having both arcane powers AND political powers to ruin your enemies' lives. I might just play that character in my next campaign--take it into archmage maybe. :D
FriendoftheDork 04-04-06, 01:18 AM	If you want a very minor boost, you could treat all NPC classes as favored class. Thus he could later multiclass in a couple of classes and not worry about his aristocrat levels messing him up. this is already how the rules work. NPC classes, just like Prestige classes, does not count when determining xp penalties from multiclassing. The rules were meant for NPCs to multiclass into PC classes.
LordofNightmares 04-04-06, 01:25 AM	One of the players in my group was considering becoming an aristocrat at level 1. What adjustmants should be made to keep the party even? I feel that it should already be fairly even, with a d8 hit die, and a starting gold of 300. They have good BAB progression (ending at +15/+10/+5) but no class skills. Uhm, reread the profile in the DMG. Not only do they get 4 pts / level they have a huge skill list. As for the NPC classes the Aristocrat is the most viable as a starting character. I've played one before and its not a drain on the party. Do not bonus the player anything for choosing the "weaker" class. Its not weak at all.
pres_man 04-04-06, 08:12 AM	this is already how the rules work. NPC classes, just like Prestige classes, does not count when determining xp penalties from multiclassing. The rules were meant for NPCs to multiclass into PC classes. Please post a reference to this rule (DMG page # or quote from the SRD). I would have assumed such was true but I have seen at least one creature from a wizards source that had favored class: expert. If what you say is true this would seem to mean it didn't actually have a favored class, since expert is an NPC class and thus a favored class for everybody.
FriendoftheDork 04-04-06, 11:37 AM	Please post a reference to this rule (DMG page # or quote from the SRD). I would have assumed such was true but I have seen at least one creature from a wizards source that had favored class: expert. If what you say is true this would seem to mean it didn't actually have a favored class, since expert is an NPC class and thus a favored class for everybody. I can't find it atm... couldn't find it for PrCs even - and everyone know you don't use multiclass penalties for PrCs. Sorry but I can't recall where I read it.
deadDMwalking 04-04-06, 11:47 AM	The aristocrat is generally a workable class as a PC. My DM recently allowed me to make a slightly better version of the aristocrat that fit his campaign better and works well as a PC class. Esentially, I've taken warrior and aristocrat and "gestalted" them. Thus, I get a BAB as fighter, skills like the aristocrat, a good fort and good will save. It lets me play a fighter (without the feats) with a better skill selection. I'd suggest that for your player.
FriendoftheDork 04-04-06, 11:58 AM	The aristocrat is generally a workable class as a PC. My DM recently allowed me to make a slightly better version of the aristocrat that fit his campaign better and works well as a PC class. Esentially, I've taken warrior and aristocrat and "gestalted" them. Thus, I get a BAB as fighter, skills like the aristocrat, a good fort and good will save. It lets me play a fighter (without the feats) with a better skill selection. I'd suggest that for your player. That's pretty balanced. Especially since there are no class abilities.
pres_man 04-04-06, 02:06 PM	I can't find it atm... couldn't find it for PrCs even - and everyone know you don't use multiclass penalties for PrCs. Sorry but I can't recall where I read it. Here is what I found for prestige classes. In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a prestige class never caused you to pay the experience penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on prestige classes in the new DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide no longer mentions that you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a prestige class. Is this a change or an error? It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give you an experience penalty. If you are unsure of how valid the FAQ is (as I am from time to time), there is also this from the SRD under prestige classes. . Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing. I couldn't find anything about NPC classes, I also looked in my 3rd edition DMG, thinking maybe it was another mistake and left out, but didn't see it, but I might have overlooked it. I'm fairly certain that you do take xp penalities for NPC classes by the core rules (though I'm still hoping to find out this is wrong). But until then feel free to use the houserule I suggested (NPC classes are always treated as favored classes), which is apprarently so tolerable that people automatically assume it is the rule. ;)
Disciple of Darkness 04-04-06, 04:20 PM	I, too, recommend the noble class from Dragonlance.