Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rabe 10-15-03, 06:02 AM	I would like to know, how other Dms handle the problem with high player character AC. My players average from AC 40 to 54 (at level 19), which includes everything from armor, shield, parrying, rings of protection, spells, etc.. The trouble is, that even CR 20 monsters have not much of a prayer to hit them, including dragons and pit fiends. To up the attack score I can advance the HD, hand them higher magical weapons, boost their strength, give them weapon focus and add a template or some magical buffs. All of these have certain drawbacks (like too many +5 blades lying around or every monster having STR 40). So what did you do, when (even if) you encountered the problem and what did work in the end? Rabe
the_heart 10-15-03, 06:22 AM	support spell casters- boost abilities without using items, targeted dispels, AMZ(rarely), Mords disjuction(rarely). for lower level effects a 10th level cleric is pretty handy and rarely benefits the party XP or gold wise. touch attacks and lots of them, incorporeal creatures, spellcasters with rays, brilliant energy weapons(create a spell that duplicates the effect if need be). if they have that much defensive magic, they likely match my group and focus on def/off magic with little in the way of general purpose items. i had one 20th level party that got nearly wiped out by regen-ing demons with flyby attack, because they had no flight ability!!!! find such a weakness and use it. i tend to only use such tactics with BBEGs and minions who know the party well. let the party rule other encounters,the players get to feel all powerful and it will make the BBEG and his minions that much scarier...
The Abominable Darkling 10-15-03, 06:45 AM	I have encountered this problem too and it can be quite frustrating. These days, I do my best to keep tight control over the players' ACs, but once they've already got them it's obviously too late for this. First and foremost, as Rabe mentioned, you should actually have a fair number of fights where the PCs are unhittable. They invested heavily for those ACs and deserve to have that investment pay off some of the time. For those other times, you can use the tactics below: 1. Make use of touch attacks. These can be very effective against certain types of high AC PCs, but unfortunately don't always work very well against monks and the like. Tactics making use of touch attacks include tripping, ray or touch spells, and grappling. 2. Bullrushing can be extremely effective if you have somewhere interesting to bull rush the PCs to (like over a cliff or into a trap). It requires no attack roll at all, and many high CR monsters are very good at this. 3. Use spells, spells, and more spells. Use spells that do damage but can't be evaded like unholy blight. Use spells with no saving throws like waves of exhaustion, blasphemy, wall spells, and power words. 4. Force them to make lots and lots of saves. Use gaze attacks and traps to force them to make saves beyond those required by their opponents' actions. 5. Blind them. Use power word, blind, invisibility, natural darkness, and fog. 6. Attack their equipment, but use this sparingly and don't make it too difficult to replace. Finally, scrap the entire idea of a "challenging" fight. It's utterly pointless. What you want to do is provide them with interesting fights. Fights where they have to make choices and are uncertain as to what they should do. It doesn't even matter if a fight costs them anything. There's nothing you can do at this level that can't be undone with a few spells anyway.
Rabe 10-15-03, 10:33 AM	Yes, touch attacks might come in handy there (I am thinking Shadow Demon from BoVD), I have to look up what else can make use of those. Btw, I dont like to destroy equipment they fought and paid for anyway (and have made Mordenkainens an epic spell, which doesnt destroy items, but has another drawback now...the former epic Superior Dispel Magic has now its place). I also dont mind, if they are not half dead every encounter :) I want to give them something which they will think has been worthy their blades, so to speak - slaughtering a horde of demons, who could not touch them seems to give little satisfaction. They liked the fights best when they overcame the opposition in say 5-8 combat rounds, where they were forced to use a heal/mass heal or two. You have found the other problem I have, too :) They have very high saving throws and two have even MR (one is a drow). Yes, they have fallen prey to their own MR once or twice, but overall its a big advantage to have. The paladin has terrific CHA (as most of his abilities hinge on it) and has saves of around 32 (cloak of resistance +5, stat bonus +3 to +4, CHA +11, various spell effects - this varies of course with and without buffs and other items). Coupled with the high saves are also high HP....thats unavoidable with 19th level paladins and fighters. They have around 180 hp unbuffed, and close to 260 buffed (including a temporary hp buff). Given the high hp and saves, things like power words or the usual save-or-die spells like Flesh to Stone are not working too well. Overwhelming them with a barrage of spells and hoping to see a "1" on a save is usually not an option, unless I want to use hordes of casters every time. And there is also the problem of the energy resistance spells, with the flag ship Energy Immunity, which make nuking often pointless. The DC of a spell can be modified by stat, spell level, feats, items and class abilities (and templates). So I have taken a look at the saves of my players and determined, that a caster needs a DC of 42 to have a chance on the melees (and yes, they have taken all available precautions to cover their weak saves, like wearing rings of Freedom of Movement, even taking Iron Will as feat). My solution for the moment is to use enemy casters Red Wizard style or giving them my own template of "Advanced Caster", if I want to challenge them magically. The best spells are Enervation and Energy Drain to lower their saves, but they have the serious disadvantage of being blocked by Deathward, some other spells and certain class abilities (although the latter does not apply here). Hm....I got carried away there :) Darkling has found words for what I am looking for: how to make interesting combat encounters for high levels :) Rabe
Zazu 10-15-03, 11:28 AM	Gee; even for level 19, that sounds a bit high; check to make sure that all of the bonuses stack.
bitnine 10-15-03, 12:03 PM	Well, this isn't the most in-depth response, but remember that dragons and other large creatures can grapple. Even if a dragon needs to use a quickened True Strike to make the touch attack to initiate the grapple, once he's in the nastier ones get +60-odd checks. Not many shrug those off.
Andorax 10-15-03, 12:39 PM	bitnine just beat me to it. Grapple them, then "grapple for damage". If you're willing to accept unarmed damage (which, for big strong creatures isn't bad either) you can do a LOT of unarmed damage over time, and the PC will be hard pressed to do much of anything about it. Also, look for other unusual effects and circumstances. Grapple, then hurl into lava pit. Grapple, then shove into 10' of water and hold under water. Grapple with fire-immune creature, then hold under lava?
Kalanth 10-15-03, 12:46 PM	In the essence of grappling for damage, I always like using the Dragon tactic of grabbing the PC, then flying high into the sky, and finally throwing them to the ground. From some heights, the DM has to just say they are dead, but there are other times when the PC can take the damage and just be quite afraid after words. And what about their breath weapons? As far as I have always understood, this is not something that has to be rolled to hit, it just does I guess. Or at the least is a ranged touch attack (as how I do it), so unless the party is all monks, rogues, and barbarians, you should be able to hand out some damage that way.
Xeven the Mighty 10-15-03, 01:42 PM	You should use stuff with breath weapons, like Dragons or Mephits (If you go with the 'Phits, advance there HD or make it very large numbers.) My reasoning is this: The only ones in the party that can make a reflex save for no damage are the Monk and Rogue. The Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard and Barbarian are stuck with atleast half damage. The Ranger and it hink Druid have Evasion in 3.5, but maybe not. If you are using 3.0 the Ranger and Druid are also stuck with half damage no matter what. Now, do the math. A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon can do a Maximum of 240 damage and a Minimum of 24 damage, which gives us an average of about 130. Halved that is 65 damage. So you say that their temp HP + Real HP equals about 260, right? Well 260/65 = 4. The Great Wyrm Gold Dragon only has to hit the party for half damage four times before they are dead. That doesn't count missed saves and spell-like abilities. So, in conclusion: Beath weapons are better. PS: IF you don't like using Dragons, pick up a copy of Monsters Handbook form Legends and Lairs. It's a great book for designing monsters.
The Abominable Darkling 10-15-03, 07:35 PM	Originally posted by Rabe I want to give them something which they will think has been worthy their blades, so to speak - slaughtering a horde of demons, who could not touch them seems to give little satisfaction. They liked the fights best when they overcame the opposition in say 5-8 combat rounds, where they were forced to use a heal/mass heal or two.I think you're really touching on the core issue here. The greatest tool at a DM's disposal is control over information. It matters not one whit if a fight poses no serious danger to the PCs as long as they think it does. You can accomplish this by designing fights that counter the PCs abilities. If your fighters are anything like mine, they like nothing better than running up and making full attacks. You can interfere with this by using differing elevations, wall spells, illusions (remember that they don't get a save until they actually interact with it), obsticles/cover, and highly mobile opponents. When players try something, particularly something they're accustomed to doing, and it doesn't work, they start to get a little worried. In the end, the fight will be all the more satisfying because they had to come up with some sort of plan to achieve victory. This is what I mean by making fights interesting. It's all about choices. Easy fights are unsatisfying not because they pose little risk but because they don't give the players any real choices.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-15-03, 08:53 PM	Yeah, you should probably check to see if all those bonuses stack. Ex. Bacers of armor and regular armor don't stack. Besides, CR 20 dragons can hit someone with a AC of 54 easily. Same goes for the Tarrasque.
Mongoose4937 10-15-03, 10:16 PM	Throw in a couple of intelligent monsters with their cohorts and use group tactics. I love ilithids because of their racial 19 Int. What does that mean? Don't fight fair. Use he PC's tactics against them. Throw them against a super-tank or two. Trip them. In two words, fight dirty. It's not above the PC's, so why should it be above the villains?