Armor Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MikeR7716
07-23-07, 02:44 PM I like the "reality" of armor points and armor maintenance, but it hasn't worked well for our playing group. I am starting a new campaign and I would like to include the risk of damaged armor without bogging players down with what has turned out to be a second set of hit points to track. (This is not a judgement on the groups that like armor points.) Keep in mind that I am intentially trading "reality" for ease of use. Also, we do use the 2nd Ed Combat & Tactics critical hit tables for rolls of 20 that hit by more than 5 (the larger criticals can impact armor as well).

I would like input on how to best make these "simplified" armor rules best work:

1) Any natural 20 that hits would require a savings throw by the armor.
2) Magic weapons would create negative modifier to the armor roll.
3) Magic armor creates a postivie modifier to the roll.
4) Armor that fails the save would lose 1,2 or 3 points of AC, based on the size of the weapon (small, medium, large). Armor retaining at least 1 AC point can be repaired.
5) If the defender uses a shield, the shield saves first. If, by Rule 4, the shield is destroyed, the armor also has to roll a save. If this save also fails, any remaining armor "damage" is applied to the armor.

Ex: +1 2-handed sword vs. wooded shield and chainmail. On a natural 20, the sword has the potential for 4 points of armor damage. If the wooden shield fails a save, it is destroyed with 1 of the armor damage points. If the chainmail fails next, it would lose 3 points of AC value.

Questions:
A) In general, does this seem too "hazardous" for magical armor?
B) If magical armor is damaged through this system, would you allow it to be repaired by a normal smith? (Possibly reflecting broken straps, massive dents, stuck hinges, etc that prevent the armor from being as effective)
Lazigothi
07-23-07, 03:09 PM One point to consider is that the armor worn is what makes the difference between a Touch AC and the normal AC, and you may wish to deduct damage whenever the attack roll hits the Touch AC. If the roll meets or exceeds the normal AC, the armor is relatively unharmed as the weapon bypasses the armor and finds a vulnerability.

A second point is that you seem to indicate more damage (requiring a "saving throw") for a roll of 20, when all a 20 assumed an automatic hit with a "threat" to crit "if" a second roll yields a hit as well. If anything, I would treat the blow as bypassing the armor completely with a critical and striking a vital area.

Otherwise, I'd keep in mind the hardness and hit points of the material of these items and process everything per sundering rules (damage taken must exceed the hardness rating as appropriate). Armor wouldn't be destroyed until it's reduced to 0 hit points, although an armorsmith could return hit points to it. I would imagine when reduced to 0 hp, that it's beyond salvaging.

Also, I'd allow magical armor to be repaired normally unless it was destroyed, in which case, a whole new suit of armor would need to be crafted.

I'm without my books at work, so I'm unable to provide page numbers.
MikeR7716
07-23-07, 03:51 PM Thanks for the comments. Quick notes:
1) We play 2nd, but I liked the concept of the armor points in 3rd. These house rules are to simplify the game effects of armor points and sundering.
2) The "armor save" is based on the old 2nd material saves. Chain mail would have the same save regardless of the character wearing it.
3) The 2nd Combat & Tactics critical hit rules (natural 20 that hit by more than 5) take into vital strikes, some of which bypass armor. A 20 is an automatic hit (normal damage), unless there are special circumstances (like normal weapon vs. ghost) that are in play. The new "armor damage" house rules purely deal with the effect of solid hits on armor.

The 2nd ed material saves were fairly broad. I will look again at the 3rd ed hardness rules to see if the armor saves should be more specific. The AC of the armors (and the loss thereof) will replicate the sundering. We are basically ignoring a multitude of individual hits by focusing on the really big ones.
DungeonMastering
07-23-07, 05:55 PM Suggestion for an oversimplified armor damage system.

If character hasn't spent time on maintaining his armor in 2 games - or whatever number you like - the armor loses 25 % of its AC value.

Easy to maintain. Not the most realistic unless you are very descriptive in your fight scenes, mentioning and describing wounds and equipment damage in details.
Lazigothi
07-23-07, 05:59 PM The other thing to keep in mind would be that some weapons were designed specifically to foil certain armor. Maces, axes, and warhammers work well against plate mail. Unless very poor, people will try to wield weapons against the more commonly seen type of armor, or have a backup for the uncommon. If typical human soldiers wear plate, Orcs used to facing them might all use Maces. Elves used to fighting Orcs wearing leather would use rapiers or long swords.

I remember 2ed, but a lot has been lost to me over time. I recall THAC0 and how saves were further dilluted into poison, wands staves, rods, etc. and now it's just three: Fort, Reflex, and Will. I wish I could be of more help there.
Mock26
07-23-07, 06:37 PM The most relistic way of doing this is to pick up a copy of the old 1st edition player's handbook which lists specific bonuses and penalties of various weapons against specific types of armor. However, unless you are very familiar with these specific bonuses and/or penalties it can seriously bog down the game.

An easy way to handle this would be to simply have armor take one point of damage (from a non-magical wepaon) on a natural 20, or a modified 20 that is modifed by magical pluses only. For example, a +1 sword would possibly cause damage to armor on a roll of 19 or 20. For +1 to +3 weapons they cause 2 points of damage. +4 weapons cause 3 points of damage, and +5 or higher causes 4 points of damage. Certain, special items such as a vorpal sword or a hammer of thunderbolts, because they are exceptionally powerful, cause an extra point of damage. There would be a saving throw for the armor. For every plus of the armor there is an additional 100% increase in the number of hit points that item can take. For example, if a shield could absorb 10 points of damage, a +1 shield would have 20 hit points and a +3 shield would have 40 hit points. I've used this system before and it is simple enough so as not to interfere with the game and adds a bit more realism to the game. I simply have the players denote on their character sheet the hit points for their armor and/or shield and I then keep track of my own dice rolls. If a roll comes up that could potentially cause damage I simply tell the player, "Armor save." They then just roll a d20, say if they save or not (they know what their armor needs to save), and I then tell them the damage, which they mark down. I understand that this isn't all that realistic, that a dagger could cause as much damage to armor as would a 2-handed sword or a halberd, but this is a simplified system. I have found having different amounts of damage for different weapon sizes as well as different bonuses or penalties for each weapon against specific types of armor to be a bit to unwieldly. So, I simplified it. Boosting the base damage for weapon size, though, probably wouldn't make the system to much more complicated.

During a typical gaming session of about 6 hours this armor damage system adds, maybe, 3 or 5 minutes to the game, which is pretty much negligible. But, that is because we are used to it. Any new system could bog down the game. The key is to find a middle ground between playability and realism. When I first introduced the system, it added, at most, about 10 minutes to a 6-hour session, which also isn't all that much.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MikeR7716 07-23-07, 02:44 PM	I like the "reality" of armor points and armor maintenance, but it hasn't worked well for our playing group. I am starting a new campaign and I would like to include the risk of damaged armor without bogging players down with what has turned out to be a second set of hit points to track. (This is not a judgement on the groups that like armor points.) Keep in mind that I am intentially trading "reality" for ease of use. Also, we do use the 2nd Ed Combat & Tactics critical hit tables for rolls of 20 that hit by more than 5 (the larger criticals can impact armor as well). I would like input on how to best make these "simplified" armor rules best work: 1) Any natural 20 that hits would require a savings throw by the armor. 2) Magic weapons would create negative modifier to the armor roll. 3) Magic armor creates a postivie modifier to the roll. 4) Armor that fails the save would lose 1,2 or 3 points of AC, based on the size of the weapon (small, medium, large). Armor retaining at least 1 AC point can be repaired. 5) If the defender uses a shield, the shield saves first. If, by Rule 4, the shield is destroyed, the armor also has to roll a save. If this save also fails, any remaining armor "damage" is applied to the armor. Ex: +1 2-handed sword vs. wooded shield and chainmail. On a natural 20, the sword has the potential for 4 points of armor damage. If the wooden shield fails a save, it is destroyed with 1 of the armor damage points. If the chainmail fails next, it would lose 3 points of AC value. Questions: A) In general, does this seem too "hazardous" for magical armor? B) If magical armor is damaged through this system, would you allow it to be repaired by a normal smith? (Possibly reflecting broken straps, massive dents, stuck hinges, etc that prevent the armor from being as effective)
Lazigothi 07-23-07, 03:09 PM	One point to consider is that the armor worn is what makes the difference between a Touch AC and the normal AC, and you may wish to deduct damage whenever the attack roll hits the Touch AC. If the roll meets or exceeds the normal AC, the armor is relatively unharmed as the weapon bypasses the armor and finds a vulnerability. A second point is that you seem to indicate more damage (requiring a "saving throw") for a roll of 20, when all a 20 assumed an automatic hit with a "threat" to crit "if" a second roll yields a hit as well. If anything, I would treat the blow as bypassing the armor completely with a critical and striking a vital area. Otherwise, I'd keep in mind the hardness and hit points of the material of these items and process everything per sundering rules (damage taken must exceed the hardness rating as appropriate). Armor wouldn't be destroyed until it's reduced to 0 hit points, although an armorsmith could return hit points to it. I would imagine when reduced to 0 hp, that it's beyond salvaging. Also, I'd allow magical armor to be repaired normally unless it was destroyed, in which case, a whole new suit of armor would need to be crafted. I'm without my books at work, so I'm unable to provide page numbers.
MikeR7716 07-23-07, 03:51 PM	Thanks for the comments. Quick notes: 1) We play 2nd, but I liked the concept of the armor points in 3rd. These house rules are to simplify the game effects of armor points and sundering. 2) The "armor save" is based on the old 2nd material saves. Chain mail would have the same save regardless of the character wearing it. 3) The 2nd Combat & Tactics critical hit rules (natural 20 that hit by more than 5) take into vital strikes, some of which bypass armor. A 20 is an automatic hit (normal damage), unless there are special circumstances (like normal weapon vs. ghost) that are in play. The new "armor damage" house rules purely deal with the effect of solid hits on armor. The 2nd ed material saves were fairly broad. I will look again at the 3rd ed hardness rules to see if the armor saves should be more specific. The AC of the armors (and the loss thereof) will replicate the sundering. We are basically ignoring a multitude of individual hits by focusing on the really big ones.
DungeonMastering 07-23-07, 05:55 PM	Suggestion for an oversimplified armor damage system. If character hasn't spent time on maintaining his armor in 2 games - or whatever number you like - the armor loses 25 % of its AC value. Easy to maintain. Not the most realistic unless you are very descriptive in your fight scenes, mentioning and describing wounds and equipment damage in details.
Lazigothi 07-23-07, 05:59 PM	The other thing to keep in mind would be that some weapons were designed specifically to foil certain armor. Maces, axes, and warhammers work well against plate mail. Unless very poor, people will try to wield weapons against the more commonly seen type of armor, or have a backup for the uncommon. If typical human soldiers wear plate, Orcs used to facing them might all use Maces. Elves used to fighting Orcs wearing leather would use rapiers or long swords. I remember 2ed, but a lot has been lost to me over time. I recall THAC0 and how saves were further dilluted into poison, wands staves, rods, etc. and now it's just three: Fort, Reflex, and Will. I wish I could be of more help there.
Mock26 07-23-07, 06:37 PM	The most relistic way of doing this is to pick up a copy of the old 1st edition player's handbook which lists specific bonuses and penalties of various weapons against specific types of armor. However, unless you are very familiar with these specific bonuses and/or penalties it can seriously bog down the game. An easy way to handle this would be to simply have armor take one point of damage (from a non-magical wepaon) on a natural 20, or a modified 20 that is modifed by magical pluses only. For example, a +1 sword would possibly cause damage to armor on a roll of 19 or 20. For +1 to +3 weapons they cause 2 points of damage. +4 weapons cause 3 points of damage, and +5 or higher causes 4 points of damage. Certain, special items such as a vorpal sword or a hammer of thunderbolts, because they are exceptionally powerful, cause an extra point of damage. There would be a saving throw for the armor. For every plus of the armor there is an additional 100% increase in the number of hit points that item can take. For example, if a shield could absorb 10 points of damage, a +1 shield would have 20 hit points and a +3 shield would have 40 hit points. I've used this system before and it is simple enough so as not to interfere with the game and adds a bit more realism to the game. I simply have the players denote on their character sheet the hit points for their armor and/or shield and I then keep track of my own dice rolls. If a roll comes up that could potentially cause damage I simply tell the player, "Armor save." They then just roll a d20, say if they save or not (they know what their armor needs to save), and I then tell them the damage, which they mark down. I understand that this isn't all that realistic, that a dagger could cause as much damage to armor as would a 2-handed sword or a halberd, but this is a simplified system. I have found having different amounts of damage for different weapon sizes as well as different bonuses or penalties for each weapon against specific types of armor to be a bit to unwieldly. So, I simplified it. Boosting the base damage for weapon size, though, probably wouldn't make the system to much more complicated. During a typical gaming session of about 6 hours this armor damage system adds, maybe, 3 or 5 minutes to the game, which is pretty much negligible. But, that is because we are used to it. Any new system could bog down the game. The key is to find a middle ground between playability and realism. When I first introduced the system, it added, at most, about 10 minutes to a 6-hour session, which also isn't all that much.