Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BeauJest 08-30-06, 02:05 PM	In the DM handbook, it states Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Do people believe that armor proficiency applies to the category of armor or the weight? So would a bard/rogue be able to wear mithral chain mail, a barbarian mithral plate mail? Thanks in advance for you input.
Archmage Atrus 08-30-06, 02:15 PM	I've always stated that, yeah, that's the way it works.
gamertall 08-30-06, 02:26 PM	I house ruled this one. I require the PC (or NPC) to have Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear Mithral Full Plate. I reasoned that even though the armor is lighter, if you are unfamiliar with how to don and remove the armor, then weight won't matter. Same goes with Medium and Light armors.
Archmage Atrus 08-30-06, 02:33 PM	I house ruled this one. I require the PC (or NPC) to have Heavy Armor Proficiency to wear Mithral Full Plate. I reasoned that even though the armor is lighter, if you are unfamiliar with how to don and remove the armor, then weight won't matter. Same goes with Medium and Light armors. The problem I have with this is that it puts a cost (a feat, which is bad, or multiclassing opportunity, which is worse) on top of an already existing cost (the gold piece value of the mithral armor, which is not a paltry sum.) You can do it this way, however. I don't see it "broken", "underpowered" or otherwise either way.
Cifer 08-30-06, 02:36 PM	I agree with Archmage. The idea that someone is incapable of donning an armor is rather strange (especially since in the case of a full plate, it would then be his squire who had to be proficient with the armor) - I pride myself on being fully capable of working out how to close some buckles in about 60 minutes of time, which is hardly the time I would imagine the learning of a feat to take up.
BeauJest 08-30-06, 03:00 PM	I am some mixed feelings about it. For a rogue or bard, I don't see much difference wearing a chain shirt to wearing mithral chainmail (the chainmail is only +1 AC better and the dex/armor check are the same). However, if a barbarian can troll around in mithral full plate I see an imbalance. (It's +3 AC better) I believe armor proficiency isn't knowing just how to don/remove the armor, but more importantly how to fight in it. Full plate armor doesn't bend, I imagine it's like moving as a robot with specified segments. Doesn't really matter how light it is. So I'm wondering can I adjudicate that mithral medium armor = light armor, but mithral heavy armor != medium armor. Sound like a good compromise?
Archmage Atrus 08-30-06, 03:05 PM	So I'm wondering can I adjudicate that mithral medium armor = light armor, but mithral heavy armor != medium armor. Sound like a good compromise? You can, but honestly I think you're putting real-world logic over rules here, which never turns out well. Honestly, barbarians are under-ACed as they are. Letting them spend a few thousand gold so they can wear full plate isn't going to break your game.
Cifer 08-30-06, 03:05 PM	Full plate armor doesn't bend, I imagine it's more like moving as a robot with specified segments. Doesn't really matter how light it is. That's not the case. Wellmade Full plate (and there is not really any other kind - too expensive not to make well) feels basically like a heavier set of clothing. It is completely possible to do acrobatics in it. Trust me - I've got a cheap suit of it lying around here and have already seen some more expensive ones.
Arganis 08-30-06, 03:35 PM	Realism of Armor Proficiency aside, I believe the most reasonable interpretation of the RAW would be that... Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations ..."movement and other limitations" are not inclusive of "proficiency".
Cifer 08-30-06, 03:56 PM	Well... not being proficient with something sounds quite like a limitation to me.
Arganis 08-30-06, 04:10 PM	Well... not being proficient with something sounds quite like a limitation to me. My belief is that it's a limitation in the grammatical, literal sense, but not in the technical, rule sense. A character without an ability is not limited. Just as Freedom of Movement does not allow a creature without a Fly speed to Fly, even though they are "limited" to the ground. I believe that "Heavy" armor refers to more than just physical weight. It represents the structure of the armor as well. While Mithril is lighter, it is still as structurally bulky as Iron armor, and is therefore still governed by the Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Judging Eagle 08-30-06, 04:29 PM	My belief is that it's a limitation in the grammatical, literal sense, but not in the technical, rule sense. A character without an ability is not limited. Just as Freedom of Movement does not allow a creature without a Fly speed to Fly, even though they are "limited" to the ground. I believe that "Heavy" armor refers to more than just physical weight. It represents the structure of the armor as well. While Mithril is lighter, it is still as structurally bulky as Iron armor, and is therefore still governed by the Heavy Armor Proficiency. Except that not really the case. DnD flubs lots of things; the fact that 'heavier' armorus are 'harder' to use is a key one. Really; I'd rather wear a suit of decetly made full-plate than scale or even chainmail. Why? It's actually easier to move in full plate than it is in scale or chainmals. The reason is that a set of full plate binds to each and every body part that it protects, distributing the weight very evenly and making is so that moving in it is much easier than one would imagine. Middle-age knights were able to climb ladders, mount their own warhorses (and by some accounts, climb ladders from the 'wrong' side and do cartwheels) in full plate; but there are no such accounts of similar acts in the 'lighter' armours. If you wore normal fullplate that weighs half as much, you'd feel it's restrictions a lot less, and a suit of full plate allows for much more articulation than scale or chainmail does as well. Why does Full Plate allow for a grater range of motion in the user? for the same reason I alrady mentioned, the armour sections bind to each part of the wearer so that they only have to worry about a small amount of overall weight on any one limb. not having the bulk of the wieght on your shoulders (like scale and chainmail do) makes you leaps and bounds more nimble in full plate compared to a scale or chain user. If anything, if you want 'realism'; full plate should have a higher max dex bonus, lower ACP and the 'lighter' armours should have their bonuses decreased and their ACPs increased. As it stands, just make Mithral FP count as medium, the barb still loses his speed bonus. In any case, most 'light' characters will go for a mithral chain shirt so that they'll have no penalties on skill checks; maybe some with mithral breastplates to stil remain in the 'light' armour range and retain their class benefits form 'ligth' armours.
Arganis 08-30-06, 04:40 PM	If you wore normal fullplate that weighs half as much, you'd feel it's restrictions a lot less, and a suit of full plate allows for much more articulation than scale or chainmail does as well. Which may be true but has nothing to do with anything. Did you not catch my "Realism of armor proficiency aside" statement? We're not overhauling the armor proficiency system here, we're talking about whether wearing armor that is lighter makes a different feat apply. Even if the Full Plate is lighter, the feat that grants proficiency with Full Plate does not change. Not having a feat is a literal limitation, not a technical one.
Kaligrad 08-30-06, 05:11 PM	*Ahem* A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride. It is not literally impossible to wear heavier armor, just as you can wield any weapon with a -4 attack penalty. Otherwise, proficiency is not covered under "movement and other limitations."
Zherog 08-30-06, 05:41 PM	This question is addressed in the FAQ: Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate? What about a character proficient with medium armor, such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with mithral full plate armor? The description of mithral on page 284 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide is less precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor proficiency rules. The simplest answer— and the one that the Sage expects most players and DMs use— is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says, but it’s a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on page 220 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide and a variety of NPC stat blocks). Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement). The same would be true of any other special material that uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf, on page 120 of the EBERRON Campaign Setting).
StevenO 08-31-06, 12:44 AM	Proficiency requirements to get the maximum performance from Mithral armor always comes down to two choices, YES or NO. Both have equal merit. The FAQ says "The simplest answer is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency." which is simply the simplest answer. The more complex answer looks at things like how long it takes to put on or remove your armor and considers that you still need to learn to fight properly in your armor and thus proficiency requirements are NOT changed. I fall in the Don't Change category although I recognize nothing truely broken about letting medium armors get treated as light. I do have a problem with reducing Heavy Armor's proficiency because it makes that feat even less worth while and also introduces problems like "Can I use Heavy Armor Optimization with Mithral Fullplate?"
Moon-Lancer 08-31-06, 01:09 AM	I alwayse wonderd about fortification. I have never been able to discide if a fortified mythril fullplate was med or heavy. I guess if you only think that its med for limitations, then its med in terms of a feat but heavy for all the goodies of heavy armor, but none of the bad. races of the wild show mythril as being one catagorey lighter so mythril full plate is under the med armor catagory.
Nom 08-31-06, 01:47 AM	There are two rules-consistent answers: (1) The FAQ suggestion. It means that you wear it as a lighter suit of armour. (2) "movement and other limitations" means things like evasion (light or no armour only), barbarian fast movement (medium or lighter), and so on, where the rules explicitly say "limited to X or lighter armour". Proficiency is a different issue. Pick whichever works best for your game.
Aeromus 08-31-06, 02:18 AM	Wouldn't rh limitation of the armor be the negative modifier it adds for being non-proficient in the first place? Therefore negating that limitation, even though I'm not proficient, it doesn't limit me = P Best of both worlds.
Zherog 08-31-06, 08:16 AM	I alwayse wonderd about fortification. I have never been able to discide if a fortified mythril fullplate was med or heavy. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but the fortification armor special ability has nothing to do with the armor categories. You can put heavy fortification on light armor, and light fortification on heavy armor.
Arganis 08-31-06, 08:58 AM	I bow to the wisdom of the FAQ!
runestar 08-31-06, 09:03 AM	I have always wondered just how the various armour proficiency feats made you more adept at wearing armour. Do they make you more accustomed to the weight? If so, that would justify allowing a barb to wear mithral fullplate without the need for heavy armour prof.