army size [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

army size [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blackknight5k
05-25-05, 07:12 PM I'm running a game that is going to involve one city-state trying to take over another city-state. They are both about the size of england. I was wondering what the size of an invasion army would be around that time. I'd rather not have to deal with statting 20,000 soldiers for feast of crows rules, and i am going to be using the new Heros of Battle book as well. I'm thinking somewhere in the lower thousands, maybe 2-4 thousand? what do you guys think?
Sargon
05-25-05, 07:26 PM Playing Star Wars d20 ( man i love that game ! ) we once luanched a full scale envasion on the spires of geonosis (the one featured in episode 2) complet with tank battles dog fighting LA-AT's landing Ameli troops from Chalvian ... anyway... To your question.
Our Army consisted of lets say... 500 tanks..
The GM figured up the stats for one tank including attack bonuses and all that jive. Then he told us that one unit reprisent .. 50 tanks.. The opponets where set up on a similar scale .. so when we roled it out it wasn't tank versus tank.. it was unit versus unit..

I hope that helps simplfy your combat alittle.. I don't know how many troops Middle Age London could mustar but you could look it up or just say.. 2500 are availble the others are spread out across the land dealing with territorial issues.

Hope thats helps you atleast alittle
blackknight5k
05-25-05, 07:35 PM you guys should look into feast of crows. It's only 2.50 on rpgnow.com and it's a great mass combat system to symplify attacks and casualties. I just read through it and I loved it. I don't know how Heroes of battle will be
LordHell
05-25-05, 07:36 PM A lot of it depends on the kind of governments and population of both city states.

I assume when you say they're the size of England, you mean roughly 12th century England (or there-abouts). That's a pretty big city state.

In Roman times the population of England was estimated to be about 4 million, during the 11th century the population was estimated to be about 2 million. So there is a bit of conflicting data here.
Even a 2-4 million city state could field a relatively large army.

Given a centralized monarchy kind of government, the army could be relatively large. Most likely however your government is Feudalism based.

Using the battle of hastings examples, the numbers were relatively low, in the low thousands. However it would have been quite possible for Harold to raise an army of upwards of 25,000.
Some of the big problems would have been communication, getting together enough people in time for battle.

If you're using a more advanced centralized monarchy or republic system (such as what the Romans had), the numbers could get to 25,000 given the ~2-4 million population of England at the time.
blackknight5k
05-25-05, 07:57 PM the land is about the size of england...but storyline wise the island (of 2 city-states/countries/whatever you want to call it) has only been around for say 200-300 years. I would estimate that at most the total population of the civilized people on the islands would be only about 100,000...so, saying that they are about equal population wize about 50,000 men...so would...say...3000 be enough for an invading army? the numbers i've actually come up with are 3 legions w/ about 700 plus seige weaponry plus a calvary legion of about 300...which would give me about 2500 men...that would be about 5% the popluation. Does that sound like to much or to little?
blackknight5k
05-25-05, 08:03 PM ok, i'm making the island a bit smaller...not sure of the size, but alot smaller than england...maybe the length of nc...i'll try to scan a picture and post it up here
illiterate
05-25-05, 08:32 PM if this island only supports a population of 100,000, 3,000 soldiers may be enough. remember that if the entire combatant population were mobilized, they would be about 30-35k people, and only maybe one or two k people would be professional, trained warriors.

in a straight battle, it would be hard for those 3,000 guys to win, but if they went around taking towns and cities, none of those individual places would necessarily be able to put up a strong enough resistance.

Now, given that the land only supports 100,000 people, will there be enough food for this army? Is there a lot of wildlife? grain production? Remember that when an army forages it can scrounge a LOT of food from populated areas, but generally at a heavy cost to the locals.
locals, BTW, are generally not known for openly defying foraging armies.
tiercel
05-25-05, 09:28 PM Well as a reference point, the historical invasion of England in 1066 involved armies of around 7000-8000 on each side. Estimates of the population of England at the time land in the 1-2 million range (depending how you extrapolate from the Domesday censuses).

Looking at city-states, during the Peloponnesian War (431-404BC) the population of Athens/Attica was in the ballpark of 300 000. The major expeditionary force that Athens sent to attack Syracuse in 415BC consisted of roughly 5000 infantry. (Note here that Athens could draw on the resources of a much wider Delian League, however.)

Fitting to two points, both with large error bars, isn't a good way to get an exact figure, but a population of 50 000 people would seem to be consistent with an army that had a large number of hundreds of people. A central army of 500 - 1000 people, plus some local militias, might well be a decent ballpark figure, or even on the large side, really.

Obviously you can change these numbers to fit your story or the army size you want to see. Why has the island / its civilizations been around for only 200-300 years? How advanced are the civs? If they are the result of colonization of a newly formed island, they might be much more advanced that 200-300 years would indicate, but there may be the chance of outside intervention. If these civilizations have arisen over the last few hundred years, then the question is "arisen from what"? The fall of a larger, more advanced civ? Rising up from a nomadic hunter-gatherer society?

What kind of societies you have will help determine the kind of armies you have. Additionally, there is the availabilty of resources to each side -- does one side have more/better quality/exclusive access to iron? horses? magic of various traditions?
blackknight5k
05-25-05, 09:57 PM ok, the island is about 3000 miles off the coast of the forgotten realms. They are connected by the underdark, but it is VERY difficult to make it there. The island was discovered about 500 years ago, it was origionally populated by nothing but barbarians and goblinoid types (some kobolds as well) and other things. There were a few trading posts until they started REALLY colonizing the area. Then, some of the barbarians got worried and and started attacking the colonies. This went on for about 50 years until the civilized races could create a force large enough to push them back. The pushed a large portion of the goblinoids to the southern swamps and forests and all of the barbarians were forced to the north into a wasteland where they constantly battle over territory and battle the wild elves in one of the forests. The civilized races cut the remaining land in half and established 2 city-states. And for the last 280 or so years they have lived in peace until the last ruler died (murdered) and his son (evil little bastard) took the throne. He wants to take over the entire island and then go on to the island in the south (populated by dwarves sent from mithral hall recently lead by cattie-bre (my wife is a BIG drizzt fan and is expecting them to be in it)). The little bastard is smart though, he is going to make it look like the goblinoids are being paid by city-state number 2 to attack the towns on the outskirts of their boundaries. The pc's are going to find this out and have to make their way to the kind of city-state number 2 and tell him what is going on, and then try to band the wood elves, barbarians, dwarves, and anyone else they can find together to defend city-state number 2 from city-state number 1(can't think of good names right now).

Footnote- dwarves from mithral hall are working on gunpowder.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blackknight5k 05-25-05, 07:12 PM	I'm running a game that is going to involve one city-state trying to take over another city-state. They are both about the size of england. I was wondering what the size of an invasion army would be around that time. I'd rather not have to deal with statting 20,000 soldiers for feast of crows rules, and i am going to be using the new Heros of Battle book as well. I'm thinking somewhere in the lower thousands, maybe 2-4 thousand? what do you guys think?
Sargon 05-25-05, 07:26 PM	Playing Star Wars d20 ( man i love that game ! ) we once luanched a full scale envasion on the spires of geonosis (the one featured in episode 2) complet with tank battles dog fighting LA-AT's landing Ameli troops from Chalvian ... anyway... To your question. Our Army consisted of lets say... 500 tanks.. The GM figured up the stats for one tank including attack bonuses and all that jive. Then he told us that one unit reprisent .. 50 tanks.. The opponets where set up on a similar scale .. so when we roled it out it wasn't tank versus tank.. it was unit versus unit.. I hope that helps simplfy your combat alittle.. I don't know how many troops Middle Age London could mustar but you could look it up or just say.. 2500 are availble the others are spread out across the land dealing with territorial issues. Hope thats helps you atleast alittle
blackknight5k 05-25-05, 07:35 PM	you guys should look into feast of crows. It's only 2.50 on rpgnow.com and it's a great mass combat system to symplify attacks and casualties. I just read through it and I loved it. I don't know how Heroes of battle will be
LordHell 05-25-05, 07:36 PM	A lot of it depends on the kind of governments and population of both city states. I assume when you say they're the size of England, you mean roughly 12th century England (or there-abouts). That's a pretty big city state. In Roman times the population of England was estimated to be about 4 million, during the 11th century the population was estimated to be about 2 million. So there is a bit of conflicting data here. Even a 2-4 million city state could field a relatively large army. Given a centralized monarchy kind of government, the army could be relatively large. Most likely however your government is Feudalism based. Using the battle of hastings examples, the numbers were relatively low, in the low thousands. However it would have been quite possible for Harold to raise an army of upwards of 25,000. Some of the big problems would have been communication, getting together enough people in time for battle. If you're using a more advanced centralized monarchy or republic system (such as what the Romans had), the numbers could get to 25,000 given the ~2-4 million population of England at the time.
blackknight5k 05-25-05, 07:57 PM	the land is about the size of england...but storyline wise the island (of 2 city-states/countries/whatever you want to call it) has only been around for say 200-300 years. I would estimate that at most the total population of the civilized people on the islands would be only about 100,000...so, saying that they are about equal population wize about 50,000 men...so would...say...3000 be enough for an invading army? the numbers i've actually come up with are 3 legions w/ about 700 plus seige weaponry plus a calvary legion of about 300...which would give me about 2500 men...that would be about 5% the popluation. Does that sound like to much or to little?
blackknight5k 05-25-05, 08:03 PM	ok, i'm making the island a bit smaller...not sure of the size, but alot smaller than england...maybe the length of nc...i'll try to scan a picture and post it up here
illiterate 05-25-05, 08:32 PM	if this island only supports a population of 100,000, 3,000 soldiers may be enough. remember that if the entire combatant population were mobilized, they would be about 30-35k people, and only maybe one or two k people would be professional, trained warriors. in a straight battle, it would be hard for those 3,000 guys to win, but if they went around taking towns and cities, none of those individual places would necessarily be able to put up a strong enough resistance. Now, given that the land only supports 100,000 people, will there be enough food for this army? Is there a lot of wildlife? grain production? Remember that when an army forages it can scrounge a LOT of food from populated areas, but generally at a heavy cost to the locals. locals, BTW, are generally not known for openly defying foraging armies.
tiercel 05-25-05, 09:28 PM	Well as a reference point, the historical invasion of England in 1066 involved armies of around 7000-8000 on each side. Estimates of the population of England at the time land in the 1-2 million range (depending how you extrapolate from the Domesday censuses). Looking at city-states, during the Peloponnesian War (431-404BC) the population of Athens/Attica was in the ballpark of 300 000. The major expeditionary force that Athens sent to attack Syracuse in 415BC consisted of roughly 5000 infantry. (Note here that Athens could draw on the resources of a much wider Delian League, however.) Fitting to two points, both with large error bars, isn't a good way to get an exact figure, but a population of 50 000 people would seem to be consistent with an army that had a large number of hundreds of people. A central army of 500 - 1000 people, plus some local militias, might well be a decent ballpark figure, or even on the large side, really. Obviously you can change these numbers to fit your story or the army size you want to see. Why has the island / its civilizations been around for only 200-300 years? How advanced are the civs? If they are the result of colonization of a newly formed island, they might be much more advanced that 200-300 years would indicate, but there may be the chance of outside intervention. If these civilizations have arisen over the last few hundred years, then the question is "arisen from what"? The fall of a larger, more advanced civ? Rising up from a nomadic hunter-gatherer society? What kind of societies you have will help determine the kind of armies you have. Additionally, there is the availabilty of resources to each side -- does one side have more/better quality/exclusive access to iron? horses? magic of various traditions?
blackknight5k 05-25-05, 09:57 PM	ok, the island is about 3000 miles off the coast of the forgotten realms. They are connected by the underdark, but it is VERY difficult to make it there. The island was discovered about 500 years ago, it was origionally populated by nothing but barbarians and goblinoid types (some kobolds as well) and other things. There were a few trading posts until they started REALLY colonizing the area. Then, some of the barbarians got worried and and started attacking the colonies. This went on for about 50 years until the civilized races could create a force large enough to push them back. The pushed a large portion of the goblinoids to the southern swamps and forests and all of the barbarians were forced to the north into a wasteland where they constantly battle over territory and battle the wild elves in one of the forests. The civilized races cut the remaining land in half and established 2 city-states. And for the last 280 or so years they have lived in peace until the last ruler died (murdered) and his son (evil little bastard) took the throne. He wants to take over the entire island and then go on to the island in the south (populated by dwarves sent from mithral hall recently lead by cattie-bre (my wife is a BIG drizzt fan and is expecting them to be in it)). The little bastard is smart though, he is going to make it look like the goblinoids are being paid by city-state number 2 to attack the towns on the outskirts of their boundaries. The pc's are going to find this out and have to make their way to the kind of city-state number 2 and tell him what is going on, and then try to band the wood elves, barbarians, dwarves, and anyone else they can find together to defend city-state number 2 from city-state number 1(can't think of good names right now). Footnote- dwarves from mithral hall are working on gunpowder.