Army vs Fly+Fireball [Archive] - Wizards Community

Army vs Fly+Fireball [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blued
10-21-04, 09:00 AM Any ideas how could army (marching/camping/whatever)
defend against some caster with "fly" and "fireball' spells ?

Fireballs have quite a long range and so caster can easily decimate army (of orc, humans, doesn't matter) quite easily without putting himself in any risks.
Of course that marching army could have some mages, but I'm looking for some non-magic solution.

Thanks for any suggestions...
Ricohard_Draconis
10-21-04, 09:10 AM arrows

archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers

otherwise:
catapults
anti magic fields
flying units: dragons, griffons, dire eagles
giants
and so on...
blued
10-21-04, 09:22 AM >> archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers

Well, i tought so, but when using fly you can cast fireball from about 500 feet above and imho it's too far away for archers (fix me if Im wrong) Same probably for giants. Is it really possible to hit somebody flying around with catapult ?. Btw how do you solve attack of big number of archer vs NPC/PC ?

>> anti magic fields

how to create one ? any rules ?
Cantankerous
10-21-04, 09:26 AM A Cleric or whatever with a Dispel Magic or a specially prepared Wand of Dispelling if the group doesn't have a specialist/spell slinger with them. There is nothing that will end a flying mages day faster than having his fly spell dsipelled while he's going like a bat out of Hell a couple hundred feet above a crowd of soldiers he's intending on fireballing. Also, depending on the caster, a resist elements/fire spell can be handy if the caster has it altered to be area of effect.

Certainly if I were running a military unit I'd want to see a mage with those abilities with my troops if it was at all practicable. Again an item enchanted to do the same would be a good substitue as well.

The only problem with the above is the cost factor. Most regular units, much less militia units, wouldn't be able to afford either a spell caster of the requisite power or a item able to take the mages place.

In the case that they're out of range the added ability for the spell caster or wand weilder to be able to fly as well is added, but hardly undoable for an elite group at least.

Isshia
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-21-04, 09:32 AM An archer can shoot something 800 feet away, but with big penalties. If you have 400 archers, however, some should hit the mage.

Smart mages will use stoneskin and, for short periods, greater invisibility or the other illusion protection spells.
VirgilCaine
10-21-04, 09:34 AM This is exactly why in my campaigns, wizards can't fight in wars. Well, only common threats like an invasion of goblinoids or demons or something. Wizards fighting in "Civilized" warfare between nations is a big no-no.
Naeron
10-21-04, 09:39 AM >> archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers

Well, i tought so, but when using fly you can cast fireball from about 500 feet above and imho it's too far away for archers (fix me if Im wrong) Same probably for giants. Is it really possible to hit somebody flying around with catapult ?. Btw how do you solve attack of big number of archer vs NPC/PC ?

>> anti magic fields

how to create one ? any rules ?

500ft is well within the 1000ft range of longbows as the rules do not apply a range penalty for firing upwards. Although you would be looking at a large number of range increments the auto-hit on a 20 will still generate a decent level of damage.

And it makes no sense to only look for non-magic solutions. 3rd ED is a world with more spellcasters than before. Every army will have spellcasters included in its number and will have planned counters for common tactics (such as fireballing flying wizards) that would include more dispersed troop formations, flying allies and spellcasting. Leaders will make sure that some of the war funds are allocated to accumulating spell-trigger items that can be used by the lower level casters that accompany the army.
EatFlan
10-21-04, 09:49 AM every decent sized nation should have a handful of Zhent Sky Mage types in their ranks.
Phrennzy
10-21-04, 09:55 AM Counterspelling the Fireballs.

Or winged troops/steeds.

Summoned flying creatures.

Trying to think of non-magical solutions to a magical problem is odd. I mean, D&D is chock full o magic. Use it.

Any commander is going to have some magical access. Even if it's a single caster with Summon Monster spells.

Or you could just fireball the wizard right back.

Heck, a True Strike on a poisoned arrow and it's all over for Mr. FlyingFireball. That's a first level spell with a few bucks towards a CON damaging poison. Or perhaps sleep poison. Hit those wizards where it hurts - right in the Fortitude.
fistanthius
10-21-04, 10:06 AM Yar,
In a world full of magic, they must know about the fireball spell. Any army smart enough to band together will know the threat of a flying, fireballing mage. So counters should be in effect.

perhaps there is a greater version of lesser globe of invun. where no 3rd level spells can enter. Truestrike is a 1st level spell, which will give a nice bonus to hit. A elite band of 20 or so of these guys can take out a pesky mage with no problem.
Lunakat
10-21-04, 10:48 AM Antimagic Field on a small fast flying bird with real good manuverability and Improved Grapple or something like that... or a Stirge with a jet pack...
Gedrin
10-21-04, 11:22 AM Net balistae. Essentially, you rig a balistae with a very large net instead of a bolt/harpoon. Net flies out, reflex save to avoid, bigger the net, higher the save. Mage is entangled and can be brought down to earth if he dosen't escape.

Mind you, a very large net is a heavy thing, not counting the rope attached to it. Even with fly, this would likely drag a mage out of the sky rapidly.

Of course, such devices tend to be large, hard to move, targets for the mages as well, so it's a struggle. Still, I'm guessing it's easier and less expensive to train a crew of soldiers and build a balistae than it is to train a 6'th level (minimum) wizard.
HidroliX
10-21-04, 11:27 AM Well if there are some archers there is maybe a captain archer or an elite archer.. you could always give him some extra bonus ;)
and then give some of your archer a prestige class that can fire from long distances...

or your mage flying happy in the sky... suddenly... there is a storm or strong wind... will teach him :D
Derren S.
10-21-04, 11:53 AM If the wizard is also invisible the archers wonb't do much good.

@blued.
If you don't know already, the range for ranged weapons given is for one range increment and archers can shoot ten increments far with a -2 penalty for each increment.
The Shaman
10-21-04, 12:02 PM Marshals, generals, and so on commanding men-at-arms without arcane support in a world where magic exists teach their captains to disperse their troops at the first sign of an attack by a wizard or other spellcaster using an area effect like fireball, cloudkill, and so on.

If the men-at-arms have time, they build fortifications. Remember that fireball does not exert force or pressure like an explosion, and its effect is stopped by a barrier of sufficient hit points. Mantlets, testudos, and siege towers can all provide protection against a fireball, especially if you postulate the existance of some sort of alchemical treatment that provides DR/fire. Even a redoubt or trench could be used to get out of harm's way unless fireball is used to target troops inside the fortification - if that's the case, then the spell effect is limited outside the fortification.

Archers have been discussed in detail - put up enough arrows and eventually some will get through. Plus, archers are generally lightly armored and can more mobile than heavy troops, another plus when dealing with area-effect evocation spells.

Unless the arcane caster is using something like a wand of fireballs, there is a limit to the number of times the spell can be cast - this means an attack by a flying wizard is probably less dangerous in the long run than an artillery barrage to soldiers on the modern battlefield.
BlackieDuQuesne
10-21-04, 12:02 PM One thing you could do would be to have your enemy army suffer a minor but definite defeat at the hands of your flying mage, and then have them return with tactics designed to deal with the new threat. That way your player gets to enjoy the success of his tactics but quickly realizes what every general realizes sooner or later. You are always fighting the last battle.

It can be easy to fool a flying foe if you are smart about it. Lots of nasty looking emplacements to draw enemy bombs (basically, of course, that is what a fireball is) but they really are dummy structures. An army that uses cover like trees and forests when traveling through an area, could be another way of leveling the playing field. How about an army that travels spread out rather than shoulder to shoulder? How about having your army move at night and disburse widely to rest during the day? These are all things real armies due to blunt superior air power.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blued 10-21-04, 09:00 AM	Any ideas how could army (marching/camping/whatever) defend against some caster with "fly" and "fireball' spells ? Fireballs have quite a long range and so caster can easily decimate army (of orc, humans, doesn't matter) quite easily without putting himself in any risks. Of course that marching army could have some mages, but I'm looking for some non-magic solution. Thanks for any suggestions...
Ricohard_Draconis 10-21-04, 09:10 AM	arrows archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers otherwise: catapults anti magic fields flying units: dragons, griffons, dire eagles giants and so on...
blued 10-21-04, 09:22 AM	>> archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers Well, i tought so, but when using fly you can cast fireball from about 500 feet above and imho it's too far away for archers (fix me if Im wrong) Same probably for giants. Is it really possible to hit somebody flying around with catapult ?. Btw how do you solve attack of big number of archer vs NPC/PC ? >> anti magic fields how to create one ? any rules ?
Cantankerous 10-21-04, 09:26 AM	A Cleric or whatever with a Dispel Magic or a specially prepared Wand of Dispelling if the group doesn't have a specialist/spell slinger with them. There is nothing that will end a flying mages day faster than having his fly spell dsipelled while he's going like a bat out of Hell a couple hundred feet above a crowd of soldiers he's intending on fireballing. Also, depending on the caster, a resist elements/fire spell can be handy if the caster has it altered to be area of effect. Certainly if I were running a military unit I'd want to see a mage with those abilities with my troops if it was at all practicable. Again an item enchanted to do the same would be a good substitue as well. The only problem with the above is the cost factor. Most regular units, much less militia units, wouldn't be able to afford either a spell caster of the requisite power or a item able to take the mages place. In the case that they're out of range the added ability for the spell caster or wand weilder to be able to fly as well is added, but hardly undoable for an elite group at least. Isshia
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-21-04, 09:32 AM	An archer can shoot something 800 feet away, but with big penalties. If you have 400 archers, however, some should hit the mage. Smart mages will use stoneskin and, for short periods, greater invisibility or the other illusion protection spells.
VirgilCaine 10-21-04, 09:34 AM	This is exactly why in my campaigns, wizards can't fight in wars. Well, only common threats like an invasion of goblinoids or demons or something. Wizards fighting in "Civilized" warfare between nations is a big no-no.
Naeron 10-21-04, 09:39 AM	>> archers can easily take out a flier given sufficient numbers Well, i tought so, but when using fly you can cast fireball from about 500 feet above and imho it's too far away for archers (fix me if Im wrong) Same probably for giants. Is it really possible to hit somebody flying around with catapult ?. Btw how do you solve attack of big number of archer vs NPC/PC ? >> anti magic fields how to create one ? any rules ? 500ft is well within the 1000ft range of longbows as the rules do not apply a range penalty for firing upwards. Although you would be looking at a large number of range increments the auto-hit on a 20 will still generate a decent level of damage. And it makes no sense to only look for non-magic solutions. 3rd ED is a world with more spellcasters than before. Every army will have spellcasters included in its number and will have planned counters for common tactics (such as fireballing flying wizards) that would include more dispersed troop formations, flying allies and spellcasting. Leaders will make sure that some of the war funds are allocated to accumulating spell-trigger items that can be used by the lower level casters that accompany the army.
EatFlan 10-21-04, 09:49 AM	every decent sized nation should have a handful of Zhent Sky Mage types in their ranks.
Phrennzy 10-21-04, 09:55 AM	Counterspelling the Fireballs. Or winged troops/steeds. Summoned flying creatures. Trying to think of non-magical solutions to a magical problem is odd. I mean, D&D is chock full o magic. Use it. Any commander is going to have some magical access. Even if it's a single caster with Summon Monster spells. Or you could just fireball the wizard right back. Heck, a True Strike on a poisoned arrow and it's all over for Mr. FlyingFireball. That's a first level spell with a few bucks towards a CON damaging poison. Or perhaps sleep poison. Hit those wizards where it hurts - right in the Fortitude.
fistanthius 10-21-04, 10:06 AM	Yar, In a world full of magic, they must know about the fireball spell. Any army smart enough to band together will know the threat of a flying, fireballing mage. So counters should be in effect. perhaps there is a greater version of lesser globe of invun. where no 3rd level spells can enter. Truestrike is a 1st level spell, which will give a nice bonus to hit. A elite band of 20 or so of these guys can take out a pesky mage with no problem.
Lunakat 10-21-04, 10:48 AM	Antimagic Field on a small fast flying bird with real good manuverability and Improved Grapple or something like that... or a Stirge with a jet pack...
Gedrin 10-21-04, 11:22 AM	Net balistae. Essentially, you rig a balistae with a very large net instead of a bolt/harpoon. Net flies out, reflex save to avoid, bigger the net, higher the save. Mage is entangled and can be brought down to earth if he dosen't escape. Mind you, a very large net is a heavy thing, not counting the rope attached to it. Even with fly, this would likely drag a mage out of the sky rapidly. Of course, such devices tend to be large, hard to move, targets for the mages as well, so it's a struggle. Still, I'm guessing it's easier and less expensive to train a crew of soldiers and build a balistae than it is to train a 6'th level (minimum) wizard.
HidroliX 10-21-04, 11:27 AM	Well if there are some archers there is maybe a captain archer or an elite archer.. you could always give him some extra bonus ;) and then give some of your archer a prestige class that can fire from long distances... or your mage flying happy in the sky... suddenly... there is a storm or strong wind... will teach him :D
Derren S. 10-21-04, 11:53 AM	If the wizard is also invisible the archers wonb't do much good. @blued. If you don't know already, the range for ranged weapons given is for one range increment and archers can shoot ten increments far with a -2 penalty for each increment.
The Shaman 10-21-04, 12:02 PM	Marshals, generals, and so on commanding men-at-arms without arcane support in a world where magic exists teach their captains to disperse their troops at the first sign of an attack by a wizard or other spellcaster using an area effect like fireball, cloudkill, and so on. If the men-at-arms have time, they build fortifications. Remember that fireball does not exert force or pressure like an explosion, and its effect is stopped by a barrier of sufficient hit points. Mantlets, testudos, and siege towers can all provide protection against a fireball, especially if you postulate the existance of some sort of alchemical treatment that provides DR/fire. Even a redoubt or trench could be used to get out of harm's way unless fireball is used to target troops inside the fortification - if that's the case, then the spell effect is limited outside the fortification. Archers have been discussed in detail - put up enough arrows and eventually some will get through. Plus, archers are generally lightly armored and can more mobile than heavy troops, another plus when dealing with area-effect evocation spells. Unless the arcane caster is using something like a wand of fireballs, there is a limit to the number of times the spell can be cast - this means an attack by a flying wizard is probably less dangerous in the long run than an artillery barrage to soldiers on the modern battlefield.
BlackieDuQuesne 10-21-04, 12:02 PM	One thing you could do would be to have your enemy army suffer a minor but definite defeat at the hands of your flying mage, and then have them return with tactics designed to deal with the new threat. That way your player gets to enjoy the success of his tactics but quickly realizes what every general realizes sooner or later. You are always fighting the last battle. It can be easy to fool a flying foe if you are smart about it. Lots of nasty looking emplacements to draw enemy bombs (basically, of course, that is what a fireball is) but they really are dummy structures. An army that uses cover like trees and forests when traveling through an area, could be another way of leveling the playing field. How about an army that travels spread out rather than shoulder to shoulder? How about having your army move at night and disburse widely to rest during the day? These are all things real armies due to blunt superior air power.