Arrowmind too powerful??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arrowmind too powerful??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gastropod
09-20-06, 03:28 PM Hi all,

I wanted to know your opinions on the spell arrowmind from the Complete Adventurer. It is a 1st level sor/wiz and ranger spell. It can be cast as an immediate action, and it lasts 1 min / caster level, and it can only be cast on yourself.

The spell allows someone using a bow to threaten the squares adjacent to you, and fire into those sqaures without incurring attacks of Opportunity. On top of that, it is an immediate action, therefore the caster will not incur AoO themselves to try to cast the spell.

The issue I have with this spell is its casting time compared to its effect time. Because it is an immediate action, when someone moves through a square you threaten, you could immediately get AoO on the creature. Then the spell will continue to last.

If you compare this spell to other spells that require swift actions like grave strike and golem strike, they allow the caster to crit on undead or constructs but only for the rest of that round.

I am inclined to make this spell only last one round as an immediate action in my game, and create a second version that requires 1 standard action to cast much like the two versions of expeditious retreat.

I would appreciate your thoughts

Thanks
GaffeR
09-20-06, 03:31 PM I wasn't aware that Immediate spells didn't provoke AoOs.

Considering the VERY limited number of spells Rangers get (and that rangers are fairly underpowered anyways) I wouldn't worry about it. It just makes them slightly more viable in the middle of a fight.

As for Sorcerers and Wizards, the only arcane caster I can see using a bow is a Wizard X/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight X. In that case, you've got far bigger things to worry about than the Wizard using his bow in melee.

All in all, a nice spell, but hardly game breaking or worth house ruling.
gastropod
09-20-06, 03:37 PM I wasn't aware that Immediate spells didn't provoke AoOs.

That is how I understood it. It doesnt state that for immediate actions themselves. However, I read about swift actions and it stated that since it took such a short amount of time to cast it did not incur AoO. And then by induction, since an immediate action is a swift action that can be taken at any point in the round, it wont incur AoO.
Cifer
09-20-06, 03:51 PM I see no problem with it. The usual work-around would be to use spiked armor. If a ranger uses one of his precious spell slots on it, he deserves some effect.
gastropod
09-20-06, 04:53 PM Ok, rather than change the spell, say I were to play against its weaknesses.

Trying to grapple the ranger, that seems reasonable and easy enough to handle.

Trying to sunder or disarm the bow, how would you rule on that.

1) Should the rules for disarming a held object be used.
2) Should the rules for an improvised melee weapon be used, melee attack -4.
3) Should the defender get a ranged attack to defend against the disarm or sunder.
Andrew
09-20-06, 06:00 PM There's nothing wrong with arrowmind as-is. Remember, you still can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. The intent is you can cast the spell when applicable, and it will last for the rest of the combat. Dropping the duration to anything less makes it unusable by the target market for the spell, rangers (caster level = 1/2 class level), and the immediate action casting time makes it so that they can conserve their limited spell reserves until they need it. It's either one of the precious few spells a ranger can cast each day, or it's a poor choice for a sor/wiz given their attack bonus and better options. The only circumstance it becomes strong is if you have a multiclassed character that uses it to justify flanking for sneak attacks with his/her bow - and even then, it's a patch to make something weak work like the normal, stronger equivalent (melee sneak attack).

Also, there are plenty of other "boost" spells that have swift/immediate casting times and have a duration longer than 1 round, such as bladeweave, daggerspell stance, spectral weapon, and grip of iron (psionic power).
Cifer
09-21-06, 04:06 AM Trying to sunder or disarm the bow, how would you rule on that.

1) Should the rules for disarming a held object be used.
2) Should the rules for an improvised melee weapon be used, melee attack -4.
3) Should the defender get a ranged attack to defend against the disarm or sunder.
A bow is no melee weapon and has real problems when used as one. 1.) - it's the only thing that really works against bow-users, but don't overdo it.
gastropod
09-21-06, 11:15 AM When I first read the rules for disarm, I didn't read it carefully. Then I searched the forums and found a few threads based on 3.0 rules, and most of those turned out to be arguements.

After I reread the rules for disarm, it clearly states what to do if you are disarming a melee weapon. Then there is a sentence that says:

"If the item you are attempting to disarm isn't a melee weapon (for instance a bow or a wand) the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can't AoO if the attack fails"

Then later in the detailed steps it indicates on the opposed roll rules that if the defender does not have a melee weapon, they take a -4 penalty on the roll.

I don't plan on doing this all of the time. However, I am just annoyed by the fact that he has become a one trick pony with all of the archery feats and this spell. At first, seemed to put him over the top of what I felt comfortable with his character doing compared to the others, now I have a weakness to exploit should the occasion arise.

I am just happy to know that this spell does have its weaknesses, and I can deal with the RAW now.
gastropod
09-21-06, 11:19 AM The only circumstance it becomes strong is if you have a multiclassed character that uses it to justify flanking for sneak attacks with his/her bow - and even then, it's a patch to make something weak work like the normal, stronger equivalent (melee sneak attack).

As far as I can tell, the Arrowmind only allows you to threaten spaces you would normally threaten with a melee weapon. So for a medium sized creature, you threathen in your 5 foot reach, and large the 10 foot reach etc. So the spell would not help a rogue from a distance if that is what you were implying.

Also, there are plenty of other "boost" spells that have swift/immediate casting times and have a duration longer than 1 round, such as bladeweave, daggerspell stance, spectral weapon, and grip of iron (psionic power).

That is a good point, I have not had any experience with these spells yet, I was not aware of them.

Thanks for your reply.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gastropod 09-20-06, 03:28 PM	Hi all, I wanted to know your opinions on the spell arrowmind from the Complete Adventurer. It is a 1st level sor/wiz and ranger spell. It can be cast as an immediate action, and it lasts 1 min / caster level, and it can only be cast on yourself. The spell allows someone using a bow to threaten the squares adjacent to you, and fire into those sqaures without incurring attacks of Opportunity. On top of that, it is an immediate action, therefore the caster will not incur AoO themselves to try to cast the spell. The issue I have with this spell is its casting time compared to its effect time. Because it is an immediate action, when someone moves through a square you threaten, you could immediately get AoO on the creature. Then the spell will continue to last. If you compare this spell to other spells that require swift actions like grave strike and golem strike, they allow the caster to crit on undead or constructs but only for the rest of that round. I am inclined to make this spell only last one round as an immediate action in my game, and create a second version that requires 1 standard action to cast much like the two versions of expeditious retreat. I would appreciate your thoughts Thanks
GaffeR 09-20-06, 03:31 PM	I wasn't aware that Immediate spells didn't provoke AoOs. Considering the VERY limited number of spells Rangers get (and that rangers are fairly underpowered anyways) I wouldn't worry about it. It just makes them slightly more viable in the middle of a fight. As for Sorcerers and Wizards, the only arcane caster I can see using a bow is a Wizard X/Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight X. In that case, you've got far bigger things to worry about than the Wizard using his bow in melee. All in all, a nice spell, but hardly game breaking or worth house ruling.
gastropod 09-20-06, 03:37 PM	I wasn't aware that Immediate spells didn't provoke AoOs. That is how I understood it. It doesnt state that for immediate actions themselves. However, I read about swift actions and it stated that since it took such a short amount of time to cast it did not incur AoO. And then by induction, since an immediate action is a swift action that can be taken at any point in the round, it wont incur AoO.
Cifer 09-20-06, 03:51 PM	I see no problem with it. The usual work-around would be to use spiked armor. If a ranger uses one of his precious spell slots on it, he deserves some effect.
gastropod 09-20-06, 04:53 PM	Ok, rather than change the spell, say I were to play against its weaknesses. Trying to grapple the ranger, that seems reasonable and easy enough to handle. Trying to sunder or disarm the bow, how would you rule on that. 1) Should the rules for disarming a held object be used. 2) Should the rules for an improvised melee weapon be used, melee attack -4. 3) Should the defender get a ranged attack to defend against the disarm or sunder.
Andrew 09-20-06, 06:00 PM	There's nothing wrong with arrowmind as-is. Remember, you still can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. The intent is you can cast the spell when applicable, and it will last for the rest of the combat. Dropping the duration to anything less makes it unusable by the target market for the spell, rangers (caster level = 1/2 class level), and the immediate action casting time makes it so that they can conserve their limited spell reserves until they need it. It's either one of the precious few spells a ranger can cast each day, or it's a poor choice for a sor/wiz given their attack bonus and better options. The only circumstance it becomes strong is if you have a multiclassed character that uses it to justify flanking for sneak attacks with his/her bow - and even then, it's a patch to make something weak work like the normal, stronger equivalent (melee sneak attack). Also, there are plenty of other "boost" spells that have swift/immediate casting times and have a duration longer than 1 round, such as bladeweave, daggerspell stance, spectral weapon, and grip of iron (psionic power).
Cifer 09-21-06, 04:06 AM	Trying to sunder or disarm the bow, how would you rule on that. 1) Should the rules for disarming a held object be used. 2) Should the rules for an improvised melee weapon be used, melee attack -4. 3) Should the defender get a ranged attack to defend against the disarm or sunder. A bow is no melee weapon and has real problems when used as one. 1.) - it's the only thing that really works against bow-users, but don't overdo it.
gastropod 09-21-06, 11:15 AM	When I first read the rules for disarm, I didn't read it carefully. Then I searched the forums and found a few threads based on 3.0 rules, and most of those turned out to be arguements. After I reread the rules for disarm, it clearly states what to do if you are disarming a melee weapon. Then there is a sentence that says: "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn't a melee weapon (for instance a bow or a wand) the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can't AoO if the attack fails" Then later in the detailed steps it indicates on the opposed roll rules that if the defender does not have a melee weapon, they take a -4 penalty on the roll. I don't plan on doing this all of the time. However, I am just annoyed by the fact that he has become a one trick pony with all of the archery feats and this spell. At first, seemed to put him over the top of what I felt comfortable with his character doing compared to the others, now I have a weakness to exploit should the occasion arise. I am just happy to know that this spell does have its weaknesses, and I can deal with the RAW now.
gastropod 09-21-06, 11:19 AM	The only circumstance it becomes strong is if you have a multiclassed character that uses it to justify flanking for sneak attacks with his/her bow - and even then, it's a patch to make something weak work like the normal, stronger equivalent (melee sneak attack). As far as I can tell, the Arrowmind only allows you to threaten spaces you would normally threaten with a melee weapon. So for a medium sized creature, you threathen in your 5 foot reach, and large the 10 foot reach etc. So the spell would not help a rogue from a distance if that is what you were implying. Also, there are plenty of other "boost" spells that have swift/immediate casting times and have a duration longer than 1 round, such as bladeweave, daggerspell stance, spectral weapon, and grip of iron (psionic power). That is a good point, I have not had any experience with these spells yet, I was not aware of them. Thanks for your reply.