Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-03-05, 08:58 PM	I just caught one of my players cheating. I am now Angry DM. :behold: A feat combo that one of my players has was not sitting right with me, so I decided to look into it...And I discovered that not just one, but two of this player's two feats are from source material I specifically disallowed. I'm willing to chalk this up to a big miscommunication, or massive attack of retardism. It had better be temporary. So I will not boot him just as yet, but if it should happen again I will have to get my shovel and a tarp... Now onto the problem at hand: what to do about this. Firstly, I am strongly considering the best way to approach him and talk to him about this "accident". (I'm just not quite sure how to bring it up.) What I am leaning towards right now is massively restricting all source material. This does hurt the rest of the group, and it was not their fault. On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. Which is now my dilemma. Do I impose harsher restrictions on the the group as a whole and hope dip:censored: gets the message? Or do I do something nasty to him alone (booting is not an option yet) and if so, what?
Terratek 11-03-05, 09:05 PM	If you restrict the options for the whole group, you'll make them just as upset at you as you are at the one problem player. No good can come from that. Talk to this guy, make him give up those feats and select something from an approved source. Or, alternately, during your next session, read this aloud to the group: "A massive interplanar rift opens in the sky and one whole gear from Mechanus falls out of it. Miraculously, it fails to hit anything but (insert problem character here). Roll reflex for half damage."
PenderGrass 11-03-05, 09:10 PM	No sense being overly harsh. I would suggest that you ask that everyone hand over a copy of their sheets - making a pointed remark "thanks to this mistake, I now feel inclined to double-check everyone's PC" - this will get the point across while still not punishing the whole group. Making sure that you restrict outside material to books/resources that you have direct access to is a valid and good idea, regardless. If it ends up that he cheated on purpose - have the group decide to keep or boot him. Assign everyone to watch him and have everyone - including yourself (unless it is a hidden roll like Searching for traps) - roll in the open. It gives people more trust in each other when everyone is rolling in the open. :dragon: ****
Rhomphaia 11-03-05, 09:15 PM	I agree with forcing him to remove the problem feats, but go a step further, since he chose two feats that were from source material you did not allow, do one of two things when having him take replacements. A) Select the feats for him. B) Tell him he must select the replacement feats from the PHB ONLY. No source material at all. Plus have him do it in front of the other players to drive the message home to them as well that they had better not pull the same ****. If this player does it again or if he does not like having to change his feats in the way you described, provide him with a detailed map to the door.
primemover003 11-03-05, 10:25 PM	No sense being overly harsh. If it ends up that he cheated on purpose - have the group decide to keep or boot him. Assign everyone to watch him and have everyone - including yourself (unless it is a hidden roll like Searching for traps) - roll in the open. It gives people more trust in each other when everyone is rolling in the open. I totally disagree with Pendergrass' last statement... the DM should not Roll in the Open. We have a Screen for a Reason, we're allowed to fudge rolls to make the game better. As to this PC, there is no team crap when dealing with a problem player... remove the military brainwashing... er protocol's from this particular situation. Never punish the other players unless they are complicit in the act. Take him aside and let him know straight up you won't allow any shenanigans like this again. Repeat the reasons you don't want those source materials in your campaign again. Let him choose two new feats from approved sources... then create an NPC specifically designed to beat him up!!! No, don't do that... even if you might want to.
rkr1970 11-03-05, 10:51 PM	Before throwing my 2 cents in on either side of this, what are the allowed sources and what are the offending feats? I've seen several feats appear in multiple places over the last few years.
revnk 11-03-05, 11:14 PM	I totally disagree with Pendergrass' last statement... the DM should not Roll in the Open. We have a Screen for a Reason, we're allowed to fudge rolls to make the game better. As to this PC, there is no team crap when dealing with a problem player... remove the military brainwashing... er protocol's from this particular situation. Never punish the other players unless they are complicit in the act. Take him aside and let him know straight up you won't allow any shenanigans like this again. Repeat the reasons you don't want those source materials in your campaign again. Let him choose two new feats from approved sources... then create an NPC specifically designed to beat him up!!! No, don't do that... even if you might want to. Amen, amen, amen! Listen to primemover003!
weasel fierce 11-04-05, 12:44 AM	If he took stuff he isnt allowed to, and this was made abundantly clear, then simply remove the two feats, and give him nothing in return. For repeat offenders, kill them, and take their stuff. The character as well :)
Super_Demolition_Christ 11-04-05, 12:46 AM	well for one, are you sure he "cheated". I mean you need to list the feats first. If I had said that the "Sword and fist" book and any 3.0 book was not allowed but 3.5 was, then I would feel pretty stupid getting mad at a player for using a feat in Sword and Fist and then seeing it in the complete warrior
Novacat 11-04-05, 01:05 AM	Or you could haul off and land your fist in his face...
SnowbearK 11-04-05, 02:55 AM	I make it a point to verify all PCs before the game starts, myself. I just always have. *shrug* However, were I in your situation, TPK, I would ask the player to select replacement feats from the approved list -- and let it go at that, unless the player did something to give me a definite feeling of "ha ha fooled you!" At that point we'd be discussing the merits of doorways...
Moon-Lancer 11-04-05, 04:05 AM	tpk. get over it. it could have been a mistake, maybe not. play it cool for now and see what happens. DONT PUNISH THE PLAYERS THAT DID NOT OFFEND. that’s a quick way to getting rid of your players, not an accused cheater. It may work in the army, becuse it makes the offender guilty, but we all know what happend in full metal jackit... um yeah. i woudlent want to be the sarge..um dm ether.
Corinthians 11-04-05, 04:41 AM	If he took stuff he isnt allowed to, and this was made abundantly clear, then simply remove the two feats, and give him nothing in return. You mean imply that the character should pick a fight with town guards and get himself killed so he can make a new character, right? If you want a player to follow the rules, changing the rules of the game certainly isn't a good way of leading by example.
JStegmaier 11-04-05, 05:08 AM	On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. Yeah, see, I think of myself in this scenario: I came to play at a game. The DM told my Core, plus X were allowed. "Okay, then," I say and proceed to make my character using Core and X. Then, a few weeks later, the DM comes in and says, "Well, one or two in the group used Y. And, of course, I assume this was a mistake. But despite the fact that it was merely a mistake, and despite the fact that only those few people even made this mistake, you're all being punished. No one can use X anyone." You know what I'd do? I stand up, hand the DM my character sheet and leave, never playing with that DM again. I came to play a certain game. The DM is changing that game mid-stream. To Hell with that DM.
strcpy 11-04-05, 05:20 AM	Something that I like to do is take an active interest in what my players are doing at level up. I always ask them what skills they are taking, what feats, what spell choices etc. The main reason for this so I can build encounters around my players where they can use their new skills, feats and spells and enjoy the game more. It also gives me an idea of where the players are taking their characters. The secondary hidden reason is so that I can pick out an blunders, mistakes and the off chance someone may cheat.
Bullgrit 11-04-05, 08:13 AM	First, do not punish the whole group. They are not a military unit, living and working closely with and for each other every day. And you are not their commanding officer (or noncom). If you determine that the cheat was intentional, dismiss the Player from the group. Cheats do not reform, they only find better ways to cheat. If you determine that the cheat was a mistake due to simple/honest miscommunication, let the Player rechoose feats to replace the illegal ones. But be careful to not allow the Player to choose better feats; try to have him pick equal/similar feats from the approved lists. Sometimes a Player chooses a feat at level 3 that is useful through levels 3 to 8, but isn't as useful later. Then when the DM allows the Player to rechoose a feat at level 9, he replaces that now less useful feat with a more immediately useful feat -- this is not a fair thing to the other Players. Make sure that the Player picks replacement feats that the PC could have taken at the levels he took the illegal feats. Don't allow him to replace a level 1 feat with a level 9 feat (based on prerequisites). If you determine that the cheat was a mistake due to the Player's stupidity or from not paying appropriate attention, then remove the feats and do not allow replacement feats. The Player broke the rules, and does not get a "do over". If the Player complains or whines, explain that you and the other Players are the only ones who have honest reason to complain -- he broke the rules that everyone else is working within, this is not punishment, it is correcting his cheating. You are only taking away what he took illegally -- if he wanted two feats, he should have chosen from the approved lists. Bullgrit
The White Sorcerer 11-04-05, 08:40 AM	On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. Meh. Punishment where punishment is due, I say.
High Octane 11-04-05, 08:56 AM	On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. "I tell you what Pyle! I won't punish you, I'll punish everyone else!" At which point you hand out socks and bars of soap. Seriously, taking this mindset will **** off people. This isnt the military. Its a game.
Veomyr 11-04-05, 08:57 AM	On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. I've also have some military background. Punishing everyone for the mistake of a single person just turns everyone against that one person. It DOES NOT make everyone work together better.
Chobemaster 11-04-05, 09:01 AM	to summarize 1) ask him, privately, if you are correct that these feats do not appear in allowed materials. If you are wrong, stop. If you are correct 2) ask why he used banned materials. The answer doesn't really matter, unless you're going to ban him for trying to cheat. that question is best addressed by you alone, based on what he adds to the game and the availability of suitable replacements. 3) ask him what feat replacements he believes are appropriate for the character background to correct the error. If reasonable, just change to that. if not, you pick reasonable replacements and instruct him on what they are. 4) ask the party generally, without reference to this specific instance, to double check that everything they have is from approved sources. I had a guy, who was a minmaxer who knew the rules fairly well, take Expertise despite not meeting the INT requirement. I'm not into grading papers at this point, we're all adults, so I didn't check that out. But he made some mention of his int being 10 at some point. So I asked him how he had expertise. "oh, I didn't know you were enforcing the restriction." I enforce almost everything, he certainly had no basis to believe I wasn't enforcing that. He was a cheater. He was actually a cheater on many things, and we eventually came to a mutual understanding that he wasn't really welcome.
scout989 11-04-05, 10:10 AM	No sense being overly harsh. I would suggest that you ask that everyone hand over a copy of their sheets - making a pointed remark "thanks to this mistake, I now feel inclined to double-check everyone's PC" - this will get the point across while still not punishing the whole group. Making sure that you restrict outside material to books/resources that you have direct access to is a valid and good idea, regardless. If it ends up that he cheated on purpose - have the group decide to keep or boot him. Assign everyone to watch him and have everyone - including yourself (unless it is a hidden roll like Searching for traps) - roll in the open. It gives people more trust in each other when everyone is rolling in the open. :dragon: **** I've gotta say that I agree with pretty much everything PenderGrass said here. Unless you know he cheated (as opposed to making a mistake), it makes no sense to punish him or anyone else. Now, if you suspect but don't know that he purposefully did not follow the rules, this sounds like an excellent time to institute the rule that all character sheets stay with you at the end of every game session. If the idiot cheats again after that (and he might very well), then hand him a pile of ashes when he shows up for the next game session. However, it's good to give players a written copy of house rules and books allowed, so that they don't have any excuse when they break the rules (in my book, being so lazy as to not check the printout is about as bad as deliberately breaking the rules). Now, having said all that, I sometimes miss the most obvious stuff when I create a character, both in my favor and not. I have never in my life deliberately cheated at D&D, but there have been plenty of times that I've selected a feat/ spell from memory and gotten the details (such as the prereqs for a feat or the duration for a spell) completely wrong. People do make mistakes, so please don't automatically assume he was trying to cheat without any other sort of proof than that he broke the rules.
Moon-Lancer 11-04-05, 10:32 AM	High Octane :cookie: for you.
Mirikon 11-04-05, 10:37 AM	A feat combo that one of my players has was not sitting right with me, so I decided to look into it...And I discovered that not just one, but two of this player's two feats are from source material I specifically disallowed. I'm willing to chalk this up to a big miscommunication, or massive attack of retardism. It had better be temporary. So I will not boot him just as yet, but if it should happen again I will have to get my shovel and a tarp... Ouch. Well, first things first, I would suggest making them write on their charsheet the source for every noncore Feat, Item, and spell, since you have a few books you disallow. If they out and out lie on the sheet, it is straight to shovel and tarp time. Now onto the problem at hand: what to do about this. Firstly, I am strongly considering the best way to approach him and talk to him about this "accident". (I'm just not quite sure how to bring it up.) What I am leaning towards right now is massively restricting all source material. This does hurt the rest of the group, and it was not their fault. That is a bad idea. If he doesn't follow the restrictions already in place, what makes you think he'll follow the new ones? All you do is hurt your other players. On the other hand, I was raised with a military background. There I learned two important things about leadership: 1) Never single any one person out, and 2) No one person ever screws up; the whole team screws up and the whole team pays for it. Good philosophy. But does the whole team get assigned latrine duty when one person doesn't have his bunk made during inspection? Which is now my dilemma. Do I impose harsher restrictions on the the group as a whole and hope dip:censored: gets the message? Or do I do something nasty to him alone (booting is not an option yet) and if so, what? If you put harsher restrictions on the group as a whole, make sure that the group knows it is because that guy cheated. They then have incentive to kick the cheater's ass into shape. They can't help you police themselves if they don't know something's going on. Another solution would be to talk to the cheater in private, and read him the riot act. Then tell him to make up a new character. This would be the way I'd go.
UltimateReality 11-04-05, 10:54 AM	Chill, dudes. The feats are racial feats that were from a sourcebook from a series that was specifically and abundantly disallowed, and its disallowance clarified a couple of times in front of the entire group. There is no other place they are listed. I will add to TPK's assessment that this person may well have made an honest mistake. It's the first time anything like this has ever happened. Unlike TPK, though I have no problems singling out the individual, even (or especially?) because I know some of our group lurks on these boards. To give you a better idea of the character of this player, this is the same person who literally threw a minor tantrum when I told them that we would not be using an optional variant rule for my campaign, which I thought I had clearly explained beforehand. By "clearly explained", I mean I was certain I had a conversation with the player that went like: P: Are we using rules X and Y? Me: We're using X, but not Y. P: Okay. Player later turned around and insisted I had said I was allowing both. I was so surprised and taken aback at the display that I didn't think and said "okay, we'll use Y, whatever", when really I should've said no. And the rest of the group wonders why my adventure only lasted four sessions and suddenly I don't have the time to DM anymore. :rolleyes: By the way, this optional rule Y? Using it vs. not was a difference that, by the time the PC was 6th level, made exactly 1 point of difference to a check. To be fair, TPK was also quite frustrated and upset when he wrote the post. People's playstyles are shifting in our group, some rapidly and some slowly, and some people are proving more open to rolling with all the changes than others. Last night a few of us were wondering if we should just run an "anything goes" campaign to see if it works better, or at least helps get some of the uberpowergaming out of our systems. Edit: We already keep all character sheets w/ the DM between sessions. (Makes planning easier, prevents TPKs/monty hauls, and makes sure the sheets don't get lost!) There is no issue of dice cheating either in our group -- at least not on lying about the roll. "Mistakes" in adding happen occasionally, but they're nigh unprovable and only occassional and not during important moments, so that makes me think that after a full day of work/school/no food/coffee worn off, our group just may not be that great at basic math. :P
PenderGrass 11-04-05, 11:05 AM	I totally disagree with Pendergrass' last statement... the DM should not Roll in the Open. We have a Screen for a Reason, we're allowed to fudge rolls to make the game better. If you need to cheat on basic rolls in combat, or other non-secretive situations, to make your game "better" - you may want to re-think what "better" really is. But all that is a derail from the OPs problem. The point is - try to make sure what you implement creates an air of trust and not one of everyone wondering who is cheating or lying. :dragon: ****
trollbill 11-04-05, 11:10 AM	Well, as they say regarding gun control, "Don't make new laws, just enforce the ones you already have." If you have a player who has violated your house rules, making new house rules for him to violate won't solve the problem. The original rule needs to be enforced or it is pointless. But rather than looking at it as cheating, just assume it is a simple mistake and approach the player that way. "BTW, Tom, I was looking over the character sheets the other day and noticed you had a couple of feats I had said were not allowed in the game. I need you to replace them with allowable feats and try to be a little more careful next time?"
simonyj 11-04-05, 11:59 AM	[QUOTE=PenderGrass]If you need to cheat on basic rolls in combat, or other non-secretive situations, to make your game "better" - you may want to re-think what "better" really is. I think "better" is to reward players when they role play successfully, and punish when they make a bad decision, not be blindly tied to the random roll of a die. Good die rolls may get you out of a bad decision, but a bad die roll should not ruin the game for a player who is playing well or stimulating the game. That is why a DM will fudge die rolls.
rkr1970 11-04-05, 12:02 PM	I think "better" is to reward players when they role play successfully, and punish when they make a bad decision, not be blindly tied to the random roll of a die. Good die rolls may get you out of a bad decision, but a bad die roll should not ruin the game for a player who is playing well or stimulating the game. That is why a DM will fudge die rolls. A-freakin'-MEN!!!! Preach it brother!!!! Good DMs play by the rules. Great DMs make the game fun.
PenderGrass 11-04-05, 12:14 PM	A-freakin'-MEN!!!! Preach it brother!!!! Good DMs play by the rules. Great DMs make the game fun. Good Board users don't derail the point of threads by preaching their own close-minded misguided foolishness. If you feel so strongly about how wrong it is for a DM to roll in the open, you should start your own thread and be more courteous to others. :dragon: ****
olshanski_home 11-04-05, 12:31 PM	Everything Pendergrass has said in this string is correct. Especially is last post. I'll be happy to comment on another post that talks about the pros and cons of DMs that cheat vs DMs that play fair. As far as the original post: I like the idea of zapping the two bad feats and making him pick two new ones. He should also be limited to the books you suggested. I might even limit the feats to ones that do not have prerequisites, or ones that had lesser prerequisites than the illegal feats. I think the suggestion to review everyone's sheets are a good one. As an aside, none of my players would ever pull this kind of crap. I am very explicit about what books are allowed. I don't know what I'd do if someone tried this. I might just make them pick 2 new feats and dock them 500*level EXP points... approximately half a level.
Darrett 11-04-05, 12:44 PM	If you need to cheat on basic rolls in combat, or other non-secretive situations, to make your game "better" - you may want to re-think what "better" really is. But all that is a derail from the OPs problem. The point is - try to make sure what you implement creates an air of trust and not one of everyone wondering who is cheating or lying. :dragon: **** Agreed. There's no reason to not roll in the open (Unless you're dealing with searching for traps or hiding, or other actions that the PCs don't know about). It's extending the olive branch, so to speak. If you're asking your players to roll in the open, you should do the same.
trollbill 11-04-05, 01:51 PM	Agreed. There's no reason to not roll in the open (Unless you're dealing with searching for traps or hiding, or other actions that the PCs don't know about). It's extending the olive branch, so to speak. If you're asking your players to roll in the open, you should do the same. If your players don't trust you, then where you roll the dice is the least of your problems. There are good arguements on both sides for which side of the screen to roll your dice. Out in the Open Promotes group honesty Prevent unscrupulous DMs from engaging in a variety of unfair tactics Discourages accusations of favoratism Can create a heightened sense of tension for especially important die rolls Allows players to catch DM math errors Behind the screen Disallows extreme randomness from totally derailing the storytelling process Disallows extreme randomness from making an encounter far too hard or easy, which, in turn, increases the players sense of accomplishment. Both dying due to a series of really, really bad rolls and defeating a BBEG in a fluke of luck are less satisfying then actually earning either. Discourages metagaming. "Hey, that monster made his Will save on a 2? I'm not throwing anymore Will save spells then." Makes it easier to recover dice since there is a screen to stop them Exactly which way one goes on this depends on how much weight one puts on each of those points.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-04-05, 07:21 PM	I want to thank you all for the thoughtful responses, and taking the time to read through my plight -- including those who chose to derail the thread. :) Now I have been pondering this, and I have decided to talk to the whole group about their playing styles and what they want out of the campiagn. In the past this has not yielded too much when I've tried it; I am strongly hoping that this last attempt will not fail. As for the player in question...the jury is still out about that one. This could be a miscumminication, or maybe he thought I allowed the feats. As UR pointed out, this player has become confused about things like this in the past. On the other hand, I know I did not tell him he could have the feats, as I did not know what they did. Secondly, they were in a book I have yet to read -- the reason why it is not allowed in my game right now. I will not punish the group as a whole for this mistake, but if players are finding my game so hard that they have to cheat...Then I think I have a serious problem on my hands. This will be the topic of discussion come next gaming night. One of my players states that I have trained them to "power-game" and that it is ingrained the very way they all play now. And he may well be right. I have run tough encounters. I have run high-powered campaigns. they were fun for everyone. Maybe that is what I should be running for them. The only problem is that I find that boring. The campaigns usually peter out about halfway through. I know why this happens: it is because I am too bored with it to put the effort into DMing it...high powered pure hack and slash with no roleplay simply does not interest me anymore. Maybe I need a new group?
Phist 11-04-05, 08:23 PM	I'm going guess your alignment as LN. First of all, let me say that the only thing I've ever banned from my campaigns is Half-Golem, which wasn't meant for PCs anyways. I'm strongly against banning material even just on principal. I may refuse someone's character concept because it doesn't work with what I want the group to be, but I'll never say 'the Complete Arcane is off limits'. I think anything that's been put to paper can be made to work in any campaign setting. Second, you probably have no problem with powergaming. I know my players do it all the time, and the only time it bothers me is when the smash an encounter that was meant to be hard in one round, and I have to start making epic enemies for a lv 15 party. However, to those of us with the chaotic evil alignment, cheating is merely an extension of powergaming. It's not about what's fair or what's allowed, it's about what you can get away with. I've cheated before, and I'll probably cheat again. When I get caught I don't try to argue it, I just change it back. It's like a second game to us. How much can we get away with before the DM notices? Is he going to count our skill points? Does he know where that feat is from? You can't change our mind about it, but we aren't bad players otherwise, in roleplaying or combat. The only things to you can do to a player like us is either kick them (if you have some unnatural hatred for evil or chaos) or watch them a little more closely. And let them KNOW you're watching them closely, because then they will be much more hesitant to try anything.
Conshey 11-04-05, 09:48 PM	I am a Fair DM i like to think, and if the the players have to play by the rules so does the DM. But when the Players break the rules, so can the DM. Just have a simple Passerby, a Priest of the Lifeforce of the Universe (the DM)also a lv 9 Psion that has Psychic Reformation at hand. Walk up and say that it is his destiny to be reformed, force him to rid himself of the cheater feats and take away enough exp, to bring him down to half the previous level (he also gets to rechoose the feats in fairness) You are playing by the rules, and if you don't allow Expanded Psionics, just tell him that you used a book that was not allowed and so can I. You must be the example in the game, not the dictator. A good DM can pretty much do anything by the rules, and within CR. Conshey
UltimateReality 11-04-05, 10:03 PM	Just a thought, but I realized that over the past year and a half the group has progressed through the following stages: 1. Reading the handouts, asking intelligent questions, and complying with the rules. 2. Reading the handouts, complying reluctantly and arguing vociferously to the point of rules lawyering and being flat-out disruptive in order to gain that small mechanical advantage. 3. Skimming the handouts and asking dumb questions. 4. Not even reading the handouts and asking verbally for things that are clearly covered in the short, concise, easy to understand and grammatically correct single-sided, 12 point type, one page handout. 5. Completely ignoring whatever the DM says altogether and then claiming "but you said I could"... Yeah. I think it's time for a break.
Rodayin 11-04-05, 10:31 PM	Originally posted by Conshey But when the Players break the rules, so can the DM. Just no, no a thousand times no. If this type of action is allowed, then before you know it everyone is breaking the rules and total chaos has erupted. As for someone cheating. For the most part I'd object to any cheating. Taking the player aside or talking to them at some point between games and telling, yes telling them to chose two new feats would be the only acceptable solution as far as I am concerned. This may not work for everyone however and should only be considered as an example of how I would handle the situation personally. To avoid just this type of thing our group, no matter who DM's, has formed the habit of handing the finished character sheet to the DM before the campaign is started. Subsequent changes, such as those that occur when leveling up are always discussed, in depth (sometimes in far too much depth) before they are implemented. However, I would like to add that we have one person in our group that does consistently cheat. He does this all the time and everyone knows he does but he's a little ... odd? ... and it's rather funny so we let it go. For some reason he feels that he must go first in combat, so he always, always cheats on his initiative rolls. That's the only time he does. So we simply let him go first, and get attacked first and die first. Works for us.
MageofMyth 11-05-05, 12:00 AM	Was this rule written down? If so then point to it and make them change their character. If not then it might be an honest mistake. I have given instructions to people and if something is mentioned then they often think that the thing is OK, instead of me saying that it wasn’t. People often don’t listen well, which is why I give the players a list of all rules for characters before they start making them.
Phist 11-05-05, 03:25 AM	But when the Players break the rules, so can the DM. Actually that's not true. But you've got the right idea. The DM can never break the rules because he MAKES the rules. If the DM says that red dragons have cold immunity, then they have it. If he says that the natural 20 doesn't hit, then it doesn't hit. Most DMs know, and are comfortable(to varying degrees) that you can make up rules. Rule 0, right? But what most dare not approach is that this doesn't have to be done ahead of time or even thought of ahead of time. You decided how many hit points the enemies have, and if you want, you can decided that amount AFTER the party has reached it. You can say 'I want this guy to survive for 6 rounds' or 'This guy should be dead, but I want this to be a more significant fight' and kill him when you want him to die. This lends itsself to a very cinematic style of gameplay that has worked very well for me in the past, but I try to avoid it because it's easy to overdo. Also, if you can pull that off and have good mapmaking skills and a decent base of NPC ideas, you can pull off adventures with NO planning if you absolutely HAVE to. This is useful for when you're wandering around with your friends wondering what to do, someone suggests D&D and you're the DM without an adventure. My point is that no matter how much a player cheats, he can never access the same LEVEL of cheating that the DM can. So, don't be rude or obvious about it, but you can cheat a little too. Take it in stride, but don't overdo it.