Arson!!! Or how to figure CR for a burning building [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arson!!! Or how to figure CR for a burning building [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SilverSabre25
08-12-05, 10:30 PM I am starting a first-level campaign in the fall. In one of the very early sessions, I would like to have some kobolds (they're significant in another way) set a building on fire. I checked the DMG 2 for advice on CRs for burning buildings, but it wasn't helpful in that respect.

Basically, I would like some suggestions on how to figure out CRs, and possibly suggstions for how best to go about setting the fire.

Thank you!
Unca_Laguna
08-12-05, 10:48 PM decide which parts of the building collapse in which order and how the collapses are timed. a burning building works a lot like a cave-in in many respects. since this "encounter" is time intensive, I would recommend doing it on a grid rather that in a more freeform context. also, if you use a grid, this lets you mark where the fires are so the players know where not to go. lastly, impose fortitude saves vs. smoke with whatever DC and falure penalty you see fit.
OmiKapSi
08-15-05, 12:33 PM Well, fires need time to grow, or some sort of really flammable substance to get big quick. I'm pretty sure that this is why most buildings burn at night.

I'll need to know a few more things before I can give meaningful advice though:
How many kobolds are involved? A few? A small band? An entire tribe? This will be significant in determining the resources they'll be able to apply to burning the building, whether it's a flint and tinder or several pints of oil and alchemists fire.
Will the encounter start with the characters inside the building (and trying to escape), or outside the building (and fighting the fire or rescuing people).

Overall, I'd recommend looking up information on how a building burns. Unfortunatly, I wasn't able to find anythingwith a quick search on the internet that I can recommend. Fortunately, it's unlikely that your players will be able to call you on any inaccuracies that you have, so just make something up and go with it.
For the most part, the characters aren't going to be able to influence the course of the fire, so a script of what parts burn and when will be very important.
As for the CR, I'd treat it as a CR equal to 4 or 5, depending on the size of the building, and what the characters need to accomplish. I know that this is high for a first level party, but last I checked, firefighting wasn't something that civilians should be involved in.
Illion the Red
08-15-05, 12:47 PM Well, fires need time to grow, or some sort of really flammable substance to get big quick. I'm pretty sure that this is why most buildings burn at night.

I totally don't understand this comment. I must be missing something.

I'd say most buildings burn at night because:

1) If it's an accidental fire, it's usually because of inattention while sleeping
2) If it's an intentional fire, it's a whole lot easier to not be seen setting it when it's dark and there are less people out and about and you are a lot harder to see.

Flamible substances are what most houses are made of...especially in a D&D setting. Wood burns pretty well. Natural fabrics tend to burn quickly as well. There are the two main forms of decoration/construction you would find in a D&D building...And a whole lot of oil-based paints don't exactly help the situation either.
Leewei
08-15-05, 04:48 PM Here's how I would handle the fire:

The fire can probably be stopped by a summoned water elemental or a quench spell (level 2-3 spells). Simply surviving something of that sort would probably not rate higher than CR4, if it took several rounds to do so. I'd check out the DMG's entry on forest fires. If PCs are simply trying to escape, CR1-2 is appropriate. They simply dive out a window or leave through a door. If PCs are actively trying to find something or rescue NPCs, bump it up another 1-2 CRs.

Hazaards could include:
-Light Smoke. Inhaled Poison. DC12; initial: 1d3 Str damage and become nauseated for a round. No secondary damage.
-Heavy Smoke. Inhaled poison, DC15; initial: take 1d6 Str damage and become nauseated and lost. No secondary damage. Limits visibility to 5' with Concealment; Full Concealment for anyone or anything over 5' distant.
-Heat. DC15 Fort save or take 1d6 subdual damage and become Fatigued. Endurance adds to this check; Endure Elements or any Fire Resistance negates.
-Fire. Up to 3d6 Fire damage; DC15 Reflex save for half plus Heat as above.
-Falling Debris. 2d6 (or more) Bludgeoning damage; DC15 Reflex save negates.

A burning square damages everything in it as well as adjacent squares. Fire spreads to an area after it takes 10 Fire damage. Once ignited, an area heats up with each 10 HP damage it takes until it deals 3d6 per round, and burns until the flammables in the area are destroyed. Heavy smoke billows out of the fire forming a cloud of equal radius; Light Smoke extends beyond this to an equal range. The DM may change these based on access to fresh air, the nature of the burning material, etc. Strong winds will disperse smoke, but will also whip up fires, causing them to burn 2d6 hotter.

Fighting a fire:
Dousing a square in water or sand allows it to soak another 10 Fire before igniting. Dousing a flaming square with a bucket of sand or water reduces the damage it deals by 1d6. Cold-based spells such as Ice Storm and Cone of Cold automatically extinguish normal fires in their area and prevent them from burning as if they were doused in water.
MSW
08-16-05, 02:55 PM I will assume that the building is in some way important to the PCs.
Either important enough that they want to try and save the building / put out the fire, or important because there is something / someone inside that motivates them to go in and try to get it or them out.

Set up is very important here. Make sure you explain to the players that this building is burning, and they need to act quickly and deliberately if they are going to have any chance of getting in and out without dying.

I'd suggest making it no bigger then a small two story building, since then you can draw both floors on a single battlemap. Set up your own timeline of events that happen and on what round they happen on.

Fire and smoke would already be happening, but maybe you determine that the fire spreads 5 or 10 feet each round. Maybe you decide that on round 5 the stairs leading to the second floor collapse like a burning pit trap, and now they are unusable to access the second story. Maybe by the 10th round, the fire on the 2nd floor weakens that floor, and part of it comes crashing down in a firey crush trap on one of the 1st story rooms, and now the 1st story is on fire too. Maybe by round 20 you decide the fire reaches the store room where the flamable liquids are stored, and there is an explosion (10d6 fireball + explosion) On the 25th round the distinctive sounds of the main support timbers can be heard moaning and cracking as they begin to give way. On round 30 the building collapses.

Basically plan it out ahead of time with a timeline like this, preplan the events / natural traps that happen and then play it out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilverSabre25 08-12-05, 10:30 PM	I am starting a first-level campaign in the fall. In one of the very early sessions, I would like to have some kobolds (they're significant in another way) set a building on fire. I checked the DMG 2 for advice on CRs for burning buildings, but it wasn't helpful in that respect. Basically, I would like some suggestions on how to figure out CRs, and possibly suggstions for how best to go about setting the fire. Thank you!
Unca_Laguna 08-12-05, 10:48 PM	decide which parts of the building collapse in which order and how the collapses are timed. a burning building works a lot like a cave-in in many respects. since this "encounter" is time intensive, I would recommend doing it on a grid rather that in a more freeform context. also, if you use a grid, this lets you mark where the fires are so the players know where not to go. lastly, impose fortitude saves vs. smoke with whatever DC and falure penalty you see fit.
OmiKapSi 08-15-05, 12:33 PM	Well, fires need time to grow, or some sort of really flammable substance to get big quick. I'm pretty sure that this is why most buildings burn at night. I'll need to know a few more things before I can give meaningful advice though: How many kobolds are involved? A few? A small band? An entire tribe? This will be significant in determining the resources they'll be able to apply to burning the building, whether it's a flint and tinder or several pints of oil and alchemists fire. Will the encounter start with the characters inside the building (and trying to escape), or outside the building (and fighting the fire or rescuing people). Overall, I'd recommend looking up information on how a building burns. Unfortunatly, I wasn't able to find anythingwith a quick search on the internet that I can recommend. Fortunately, it's unlikely that your players will be able to call you on any inaccuracies that you have, so just make something up and go with it. For the most part, the characters aren't going to be able to influence the course of the fire, so a script of what parts burn and when will be very important. As for the CR, I'd treat it as a CR equal to 4 or 5, depending on the size of the building, and what the characters need to accomplish. I know that this is high for a first level party, but last I checked, firefighting wasn't something that civilians should be involved in.
Illion the Red 08-15-05, 12:47 PM	Well, fires need time to grow, or some sort of really flammable substance to get big quick. I'm pretty sure that this is why most buildings burn at night. I totally don't understand this comment. I must be missing something. I'd say most buildings burn at night because: 1) If it's an accidental fire, it's usually because of inattention while sleeping 2) If it's an intentional fire, it's a whole lot easier to not be seen setting it when it's dark and there are less people out and about and you are a lot harder to see. Flamible substances are what most houses are made of...especially in a D&D setting. Wood burns pretty well. Natural fabrics tend to burn quickly as well. There are the two main forms of decoration/construction you would find in a D&D building...And a whole lot of oil-based paints don't exactly help the situation either.
Leewei 08-15-05, 04:48 PM	Here's how I would handle the fire: The fire can probably be stopped by a summoned water elemental or a quench spell (level 2-3 spells). Simply surviving something of that sort would probably not rate higher than CR4, if it took several rounds to do so. I'd check out the DMG's entry on forest fires. If PCs are simply trying to escape, CR1-2 is appropriate. They simply dive out a window or leave through a door. If PCs are actively trying to find something or rescue NPCs, bump it up another 1-2 CRs. Hazaards could include: -Light Smoke. Inhaled Poison. DC12; initial: 1d3 Str damage and become nauseated for a round. No secondary damage. -Heavy Smoke. Inhaled poison, DC15; initial: take 1d6 Str damage and become nauseated and lost. No secondary damage. Limits visibility to 5' with Concealment; Full Concealment for anyone or anything over 5' distant. -Heat. DC15 Fort save or take 1d6 subdual damage and become Fatigued. Endurance adds to this check; Endure Elements or any Fire Resistance negates. -Fire. Up to 3d6 Fire damage; DC15 Reflex save for half plus Heat as above. -Falling Debris. 2d6 (or more) Bludgeoning damage; DC15 Reflex save negates. A burning square damages everything in it as well as adjacent squares. Fire spreads to an area after it takes 10 Fire damage. Once ignited, an area heats up with each 10 HP damage it takes until it deals 3d6 per round, and burns until the flammables in the area are destroyed. Heavy smoke billows out of the fire forming a cloud of equal radius; Light Smoke extends beyond this to an equal range. The DM may change these based on access to fresh air, the nature of the burning material, etc. Strong winds will disperse smoke, but will also whip up fires, causing them to burn 2d6 hotter. Fighting a fire: Dousing a square in water or sand allows it to soak another 10 Fire before igniting. Dousing a flaming square with a bucket of sand or water reduces the damage it deals by 1d6. Cold-based spells such as Ice Storm and Cone of Cold automatically extinguish normal fires in their area and prevent them from burning as if they were doused in water.
MSW 08-16-05, 02:55 PM	I will assume that the building is in some way important to the PCs. Either important enough that they want to try and save the building / put out the fire, or important because there is something / someone inside that motivates them to go in and try to get it or them out. Set up is very important here. Make sure you explain to the players that this building is burning, and they need to act quickly and deliberately if they are going to have any chance of getting in and out without dying. I'd suggest making it no bigger then a small two story building, since then you can draw both floors on a single battlemap. Set up your own timeline of events that happen and on what round they happen on. Fire and smoke would already be happening, but maybe you determine that the fire spreads 5 or 10 feet each round. Maybe you decide that on round 5 the stairs leading to the second floor collapse like a burning pit trap, and now they are unusable to access the second story. Maybe by the 10th round, the fire on the 2nd floor weakens that floor, and part of it comes crashing down in a firey crush trap on one of the 1st story rooms, and now the 1st story is on fire too. Maybe by round 20 you decide the fire reaches the store room where the flamable liquids are stored, and there is an explosion (10d6 fireball + explosion) On the 25th round the distinctive sounds of the main support timbers can be heard moaning and cracking as they begin to give way. On round 30 the building collapses. Basically plan it out ahead of time with a timeline like this, preplan the events / natural traps that happen and then play it out.