Artifacts that "level" with the characters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artifacts that "level" with the characters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OneChance
09-25-03, 04:58 PM I am running a game that has the potential to be a long lasting campaign. I want to promote heroeism and try and get away from questing for the sake of gaining items.
To this end, I have decided that at the begining of the campaign, I am going to have the characters recieve potentially powerful artifacts to use throught the campaign. The items will all have names and histories. For example, I might give the rogue a short sword or rapier that has a +1 ennhancement bonus on it and lets him cast disguise-self once per day. The weapon might be called "Deciever". I would then use illusions in the weapon progression, or perhaps shadow abilities.
I plan on producing a leveling guide for these weapons and/or items, that gain abilities (or rather the characters "unlock" them) as the characters gain levels. This would make the item more usefull and prove beneficial to the character when he/she reached the higher levels.
My question to the community here is, what kind of rules can I set in place to make sure I am not over-powering my characters (they are starting at level 4)? Also, keep in mind that most of the campaign will envolve them fighting for good, and not for items or cash, so I want them compensated for not getting gold off of every monster they encounter.
How often should the + go up? How often should an ability be gained?
Thanks for your replies in advance. If this is a topic elsewhere then I apologize and will redirect my attention there.

-OneChance
Whaledawg
09-25-03, 05:40 PM I disagree. I dont think that the weapon should just automaticaly become more powerful. I think each item should have quests or battles associated with its upgrade. For example a sword may need ot slay a vampire to get to +2, or magic armor may need the characters to enter a dungeon to aquire a special bottle of oil of sliperyness in order to 'recharge' it into armor of the eel.

Just my thoughts
Zazu
09-25-03, 06:00 PM Humm.. This is a intresting consept, i once did somthing simular. A fighter has an intelegent weapon that docked exp from him but leveled up from getting enough exp. (there is another example in the MMII, its a monster that aids you incombat for half the exp) I would say they start as +0, level up to +1 at lvl3, and every three levels thereafter (reaching +5 at level 15) Some could gain abillities instead of getting better bonuses (such as flaming wich would cost two +1s.) If you wanted to be cool to your players, you could have them design their own weapon progressions under this guideline.

Min-Maxed weapon progressions from this way of doing things.

+1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Acid Greatsword. (can you say 6d6 damage?)

+1 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst Scyth (8d4+6d10 on criticals)

+1 Throwing, Returning, Wounding, Spiked Chain.

Hummm, Or you could tally up the ammount of gil each character "would have" gotten if the monsters dropped treasure, and when it gets high enough to purchace a better weapon, the artifact advances.

I once had a shield that got "check marks" when i shield bashed a tough opponent to death. (killing it with a shield bash earned it a checkmark) every five kills, it got +1 and an abillity.

Well, good luck.
OneChance
09-25-03, 06:06 PM Originally posted by Whaledawg
I disagree. I dont think that the weapon should just automaticaly become more powerful. I think each item should have quests or battles associated with its upgrade. For example a sword may need ot slay a vampire to get to +2, or magic armor may need the characters to enter a dungeon to aquire a special bottle of oil of sliperyness in order to 'recharge' it into armor of the eel.

Just my thoughts

That's a good thought. What I really want to steer clear of though are running many quests that are for the sole purpose of gaining new weapons or even for upgrading the character's items. The game is a series of good vs evil battles that build to an epic level. The characters are recruited and given items to aid them in their quest. Think of the Lord of the Rings. The characters are given items to aid them in their attempt to destroy the One Ring. I know it is not as clear-cut as that, but they are primarily (Frodo and Sam mainly) on the same quest throughout the books. I want to impress upon my players this lack of time and necessity of action. They must keep moving, find the plot as soon as they can and then fight the good fight.

To that end, I have built in their rewards, these weapons and items that will gain power as they continue their quest.

How can I relate the power of the items to the stages of the quests (keep in mind I have 4 players, each with artifact items)? I have thought of possibly giving the weapons limited intelligence so they can sense when a character has proven themselves to deserve the next level of power that the item can display. Or perhaps make the items new to this plane and it takes a while for all of their abilities to "adjust" to the Forgotten Realms....?

Thank you for your input.
OneChance
09-25-03, 06:10 PM Thankz Zazu! That sounds like a good progression. I do want to be cool to my players as they are all good rp'ers that think about their character first and their items second. I am going to ask them what types of weapons/items they would prefer and what types of abilities they would like to see on/in them.
I will probably impose a second house rule to have them meet a certain "theme".
Good ideas.
Leaves
09-25-03, 06:44 PM If you're not adverse to spending a little money on your project, I've had my eyes on the webbook "Swords of Our Fathers" for a while (google it; I think if I linked it it would be advertising). It's basically the same idea you have, a way to make magic items scale with their users' power. But the implementation is odd, from what I understand the character has to take levels in a prestige class related to their weapon in order to unlock new powers.

Well, that may or may not be useful to you. Personally, I like the idea of giving the weapons XP the best. You could basically treat them like NPCs. Only give the weapon XP when it is used in battle (Not story XP :P) and set up a level progression that will give it a +1 bonus every 2 or 3 levels. I would also draw up scalable special powers, such as it starts as a flaming weapon, and progressively gets more and more powerful abilities having to do with fire. The extra damage from the flaming ability could gradually increase, and it could gradually acquire the abilities of a ring of elemental control, Fire.
OneChance
09-25-03, 06:48 PM Thanks Leaves. I have heard of that and have avoided it only because of the prestige classes as you mentioned. But maybe I should check it out and see what their example weapon is and how the bonuses emerge from the weapon.

Thanks for reminding me of that resource.
That's by the Game Mechanics yes?
BigBadButch
09-25-03, 08:08 PM If you have access to it, or fancy buying a damn good campaign setting book, you might check the 'covenant items' rules and examples in Midnight from Fantasy Flight Games - they're exactly what you're talking about...
spasheridan
09-26-03, 05:14 PM Earthdawn had a system for magic items that might give you some ideas. Characters had to attune to magic items. THey used a magic skill called Thread Weaving. Items would have several levels of magic in them and each thread you wove into the item would unlock the next level of magic in the item for the character to use.

Weaving a thread into the item cost Legend Points (like xp) but advancement was done by spending LP to gain stats and skills and such. There were other requirments as well.. every third or so level of magic for the item would require some kind of task... from something as small as placing a material in the magic item to killing a specific monster. Weak sauce items had weak sauce requirements. Powerful items had powerful requirements. This let you give powerful items to the PC's and not have it unbalance the game. It also was a nice way to hook adventures... this week we go and power up the warriors dread axe!

In D&D I would probably require that each advancement for the item come at some cost, like a quest that earns the PC no experience, or maybe even spending XP like crafting the item to the next level.
Leaves
09-26-03, 05:39 PM "weak sauce" items? http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafdubious.txt http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafrofl.txt

OneChance: Yes, Game Mechanics.

Considering the type of campaign that you want to be running, and the number of people recommending systems that have specific quests for powering-up items, it seems like it might work well to have the quests needed to advance the items just happen to coincide with the progression of the over-all campaign. The party could be given these weapons by their sponsers in the epic quest, the weapons specifically designed to reward them for progress toward their eventual goal. The progression could also be geographical: suppose if, in LotR, Sting was magically linked to Mt. Doom (sp), and became more powerful the closer it came to the mountain.
spasheridan
09-27-03, 03:57 AM And then there's the ever popular "socketed" magic from Diablo. Hook the characters up with some item that has these gem shaped holes in them.. when the players bump into their benefactors or patron they each recieve another power gem to stick into the magic item, pumping it up to the next level. This could also give the player some control over it.. do I stick the haste gem or dancing gem into my sword???

And I would definitly map out item advancement ahead of time. First off, you'll want to match the power of the item with their opponent, like giving it the "alligned" power just before they need an alligned weapon to hurt the opponent with. Also, you want to make sure that they item in question stays valuable... what if the treasure they stumble across or make or buy is better than the item you gave them at the start... will they just toss the improving item away and take the new thing??

If socketed seems to weird, make it a dip in the blessed pool of blah for the first buff, a few smacks on the ever-working anvil of the beardless dward for the next, and on to being shined on by the light of the gem of bright lights for the final power up.

Also, considering that most low level ID spells only ID the low level powers, the item might not even need to be buffed. The player might only discover the unlocked powers by accident or design... Hey, why did this thing burst into flame when I swung it at the troll?? Hey, I fell off the cliff but my bow is levitating me to the ground! Or the old guy in the pointy hat shows up and says "mmm.. nice staff. Ever pointed it at a door and say "kazaaam"" Now you know the command word for it's knock power.

Sounds fun though, and gives the PC's nice hooks for adventures... That thief stole my grandadys sword! Not only is it a famlily heirloom but it KICKS BUT! I WANT IT BACK!
PcSpider
09-27-03, 09:42 AM For the progression, OA has a table under the Samurai for the Ancestral Daisho ability. It specifys how powerful they can make the weapon at level so-and-so.:tiphat:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OneChance 09-25-03, 04:58 PM	I am running a game that has the potential to be a long lasting campaign. I want to promote heroeism and try and get away from questing for the sake of gaining items. To this end, I have decided that at the begining of the campaign, I am going to have the characters recieve potentially powerful artifacts to use throught the campaign. The items will all have names and histories. For example, I might give the rogue a short sword or rapier that has a +1 ennhancement bonus on it and lets him cast disguise-self once per day. The weapon might be called "Deciever". I would then use illusions in the weapon progression, or perhaps shadow abilities. I plan on producing a leveling guide for these weapons and/or items, that gain abilities (or rather the characters "unlock" them) as the characters gain levels. This would make the item more usefull and prove beneficial to the character when he/she reached the higher levels. My question to the community here is, what kind of rules can I set in place to make sure I am not over-powering my characters (they are starting at level 4)? Also, keep in mind that most of the campaign will envolve them fighting for good, and not for items or cash, so I want them compensated for not getting gold off of every monster they encounter. How often should the + go up? How often should an ability be gained? Thanks for your replies in advance. If this is a topic elsewhere then I apologize and will redirect my attention there. -OneChance
Whaledawg 09-25-03, 05:40 PM	I disagree. I dont think that the weapon should just automaticaly become more powerful. I think each item should have quests or battles associated with its upgrade. For example a sword may need ot slay a vampire to get to +2, or magic armor may need the characters to enter a dungeon to aquire a special bottle of oil of sliperyness in order to 'recharge' it into armor of the eel. Just my thoughts
Zazu 09-25-03, 06:00 PM	Humm.. This is a intresting consept, i once did somthing simular. A fighter has an intelegent weapon that docked exp from him but leveled up from getting enough exp. (there is another example in the MMII, its a monster that aids you incombat for half the exp) I would say they start as +0, level up to +1 at lvl3, and every three levels thereafter (reaching +5 at level 15) Some could gain abillities instead of getting better bonuses (such as flaming wich would cost two +1s.) If you wanted to be cool to your players, you could have them design their own weapon progressions under this guideline. Min-Maxed weapon progressions from this way of doing things. +1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Acid Greatsword. (can you say 6d6 damage?) +1 Flaming Burst, Icy Burst Scyth (8d4+6d10 on criticals) +1 Throwing, Returning, Wounding, Spiked Chain. Hummm, Or you could tally up the ammount of gil each character "would have" gotten if the monsters dropped treasure, and when it gets high enough to purchace a better weapon, the artifact advances. I once had a shield that got "check marks" when i shield bashed a tough opponent to death. (killing it with a shield bash earned it a checkmark) every five kills, it got +1 and an abillity. Well, good luck.
OneChance 09-25-03, 06:06 PM	Originally posted by Whaledawg I disagree. I dont think that the weapon should just automaticaly become more powerful. I think each item should have quests or battles associated with its upgrade. For example a sword may need ot slay a vampire to get to +2, or magic armor may need the characters to enter a dungeon to aquire a special bottle of oil of sliperyness in order to 'recharge' it into armor of the eel. Just my thoughts That's a good thought. What I really want to steer clear of though are running many quests that are for the sole purpose of gaining new weapons or even for upgrading the character's items. The game is a series of good vs evil battles that build to an epic level. The characters are recruited and given items to aid them in their quest. Think of the Lord of the Rings. The characters are given items to aid them in their attempt to destroy the One Ring. I know it is not as clear-cut as that, but they are primarily (Frodo and Sam mainly) on the same quest throughout the books. I want to impress upon my players this lack of time and necessity of action. They must keep moving, find the plot as soon as they can and then fight the good fight. To that end, I have built in their rewards, these weapons and items that will gain power as they continue their quest. How can I relate the power of the items to the stages of the quests (keep in mind I have 4 players, each with artifact items)? I have thought of possibly giving the weapons limited intelligence so they can sense when a character has proven themselves to deserve the next level of power that the item can display. Or perhaps make the items new to this plane and it takes a while for all of their abilities to "adjust" to the Forgotten Realms....? Thank you for your input.
OneChance 09-25-03, 06:10 PM	Thankz Zazu! That sounds like a good progression. I do want to be cool to my players as they are all good rp'ers that think about their character first and their items second. I am going to ask them what types of weapons/items they would prefer and what types of abilities they would like to see on/in them. I will probably impose a second house rule to have them meet a certain "theme". Good ideas.
Leaves 09-25-03, 06:44 PM	If you're not adverse to spending a little money on your project, I've had my eyes on the webbook "Swords of Our Fathers" for a while (google it; I think if I linked it it would be advertising). It's basically the same idea you have, a way to make magic items scale with their users' power. But the implementation is odd, from what I understand the character has to take levels in a prestige class related to their weapon in order to unlock new powers. Well, that may or may not be useful to you. Personally, I like the idea of giving the weapons XP the best. You could basically treat them like NPCs. Only give the weapon XP when it is used in battle (Not story XP :P) and set up a level progression that will give it a +1 bonus every 2 or 3 levels. I would also draw up scalable special powers, such as it starts as a flaming weapon, and progressively gets more and more powerful abilities having to do with fire. The extra damage from the flaming ability could gradually increase, and it could gradually acquire the abilities of a ring of elemental control, Fire.
OneChance 09-25-03, 06:48 PM	Thanks Leaves. I have heard of that and have avoided it only because of the prestige classes as you mentioned. But maybe I should check it out and see what their example weapon is and how the bonuses emerge from the weapon. Thanks for reminding me of that resource. That's by the Game Mechanics yes?
BigBadButch 09-25-03, 08:08 PM	If you have access to it, or fancy buying a damn good campaign setting book, you might check the 'covenant items' rules and examples in Midnight from Fantasy Flight Games - they're exactly what you're talking about...
spasheridan 09-26-03, 05:14 PM	Earthdawn had a system for magic items that might give you some ideas. Characters had to attune to magic items. THey used a magic skill called Thread Weaving. Items would have several levels of magic in them and each thread you wove into the item would unlock the next level of magic in the item for the character to use. Weaving a thread into the item cost Legend Points (like xp) but advancement was done by spending LP to gain stats and skills and such. There were other requirments as well.. every third or so level of magic for the item would require some kind of task... from something as small as placing a material in the magic item to killing a specific monster. Weak sauce items had weak sauce requirements. Powerful items had powerful requirements. This let you give powerful items to the PC's and not have it unbalance the game. It also was a nice way to hook adventures... this week we go and power up the warriors dread axe! In D&D I would probably require that each advancement for the item come at some cost, like a quest that earns the PC no experience, or maybe even spending XP like crafting the item to the next level.
Leaves 09-26-03, 05:39 PM	"weak sauce" items? http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafdubious.txt http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/leafrofl.txt OneChance: Yes, Game Mechanics. Considering the type of campaign that you want to be running, and the number of people recommending systems that have specific quests for powering-up items, it seems like it might work well to have the quests needed to advance the items just happen to coincide with the progression of the over-all campaign. The party could be given these weapons by their sponsers in the epic quest, the weapons specifically designed to reward them for progress toward their eventual goal. The progression could also be geographical: suppose if, in LotR, Sting was magically linked to Mt. Doom (sp), and became more powerful the closer it came to the mountain.
spasheridan 09-27-03, 03:57 AM	And then there's the ever popular "socketed" magic from Diablo. Hook the characters up with some item that has these gem shaped holes in them.. when the players bump into their benefactors or patron they each recieve another power gem to stick into the magic item, pumping it up to the next level. This could also give the player some control over it.. do I stick the haste gem or dancing gem into my sword??? And I would definitly map out item advancement ahead of time. First off, you'll want to match the power of the item with their opponent, like giving it the "alligned" power just before they need an alligned weapon to hurt the opponent with. Also, you want to make sure that they item in question stays valuable... what if the treasure they stumble across or make or buy is better than the item you gave them at the start... will they just toss the improving item away and take the new thing?? If socketed seems to weird, make it a dip in the blessed pool of blah for the first buff, a few smacks on the ever-working anvil of the beardless dward for the next, and on to being shined on by the light of the gem of bright lights for the final power up. Also, considering that most low level ID spells only ID the low level powers, the item might not even need to be buffed. The player might only discover the unlocked powers by accident or design... Hey, why did this thing burst into flame when I swung it at the troll?? Hey, I fell off the cliff but my bow is levitating me to the ground! Or the old guy in the pointy hat shows up and says "mmm.. nice staff. Ever pointed it at a door and say "kazaaam"" Now you know the command word for it's knock power. Sounds fun though, and gives the PC's nice hooks for adventures... That thief stole my grandadys sword! Not only is it a famlily heirloom but it KICKS BUT! I WANT IT BACK!
PcSpider 09-27-03, 09:42 AM	For the progression, OA has a table under the Samurai for the Ancestral Daisho ability. It specifys how powerful they can make the weapon at level so-and-so.:tiphat: