Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bholdr_mage 01-31-06, 05:46 PM	Yeah. A new player of mine, with only a select few books from PHB, complete stuff, and Eberron books, has the ability to create a monster. Since Artificers create wands like a quarter of what they are worth, and they can get their points from stuff they dismantle, they can create wands of magic missile, scorching ray (which I'm not letting OVER a 4d6 amount. It isn't that powerful by itself), and other ranged touch attacks for pocket change. Dual wand wielder allows them to use two wands in the same round, and if he uses two wands of scorching ray or two wands of magic missle, it's pretty powerful right? The only penalty is that he has to burn an extra charge in is offhand wand. (I never thought I would type "offhand wand.") Right. Add metamagic spell trigger. This is rediculous. This "wand slinger" could absolutely be overpowered. This player is kind enough not to add things like twin spell, quicken spell, and energy admixture. Or even maximize spell. In fact, he's probably not going to use the feats except on BBEGs. But still, this could be alot of fire damage. Oh, he also has energy substitution, so protection from fire doesn't work. Thoughts, suggestions?
cynical 01-31-06, 06:29 PM	In the long run the elemental damage even with those feats , though impressive, is not really worth worrying about much. It when he make daul enervation wands youll have to start to worry.
Blackavar 01-31-06, 06:33 PM	I don't think this is overpowered at all. No, really. If someone puts a bunch of feats into being good with wands and a bunch of gold into having good wands, then, while they have their wands, they will be powerful. Just have opponents smart enough to try to deprive him of his wands if he starts being too devastating, and it'll be balanced. After all, if I was a BBEG and saw what this guy could do with his wands, I'd try to sunder, disarm, or steal them.
nastynate 01-31-06, 07:16 PM	I dunno about it being just O.K. I've got an artificer who's able to regularly unleash some pretty spectacular amounts of damage with his wands. Empowered, split, twinned scorching rays with two wands at twelvth level effect fired simultaneously from two wands do some pretty amazing damage. 148d6 damage isn't too shabby is it? 518 average damage per round is on par with some of the most powerful characters out there, and I'm doing that at level twelve! Metamagic infusions, spell trigger items, and a good combination of feats, along with a minimal investment (significantly reduced) to craft wands, the ability to pay the XP costs out of your craft reserve, and retain essence make it really easy to have ten wands on hand, along with my dual wand sheaths... Yes artificers are really powerful, and very versatile characters. I've also got CLW wands, and magic missile wands, which really pack some punch to them. And since I can take ten on UMD checks, there really isn't any magic item I can't make use of, besides if we don't need it, I just eat it to make the items we really do need. Artificers also have pretty decent HP, and much better AC and BAB than a wizard of equal level. They're really, really strong characters, and I don't even have persistent spell yet (soon, very soon :smirk: ) to get some 24 hour buffs going. Once I get persistent spell, I'll easily be able to out-blast any wizard (I already do that), and out-fight any fighter with persistent divine might, and other nice persistent effects. If I wanted to really screw with people, I could craft a staff of unfettered heroism, and use my wand surge feat to blast away almost infinately, but as I advised my DM, unfettered heroism has to be banned or it will break everything. Basically artificers can get any spell, any magic item, and use metamagic feats with impunity. Keep in mind that artificers get more powerful, any time a new spell or magic item is printed, because they can duplicate them and make them. Everything that makes wizards, clerics, and druids powerful (barring wildshape, but I can get polymorph) is available to an artificer. Sure they rely heavily upon magic items, but um...that's their gimmick. Magic items have never been a weakness before, I don't really suspect they will become one any time soon. :D
Lord Ian Stark 01-31-06, 07:42 PM	Doesn't an artificer do infusions like a Sorceror does spells? Is one Metamagic feat a full round action for him? At work so I don't have my books.
Valor22 01-31-06, 07:57 PM	Have any of you read the save my game topic on Artificers? The idea came from these boards. As a DM you should make one choice when creating your campaign. What Classes to allow and not allow. I know one tempting idea might be to limit what this artificer can build, but as the Save my game article said. Building is that the class is all about. The sole reason for an artificer is to build stuff. I mean I don’t know if this is following the rules sounds like a very possible “oversight” of some rules u haven’t looked close enough at. But in the chance that it is not an oversight of some rules then well, I can understand that the damage is a bit insane so I really do suggest looking at the rules. But it is isn’t then well I’m sorry but if you did not look into the rules and info on this class before you allowed it then well tough. If that were the case then this player has done nada wrong. I mean how is anything wrong if the player is simple really good at what his character is supposed to do. That’s the point of the game. As a DM I can’t even think about punishing a player for doing something really darn well. I can think of making things more challenging but in no way can I even think about sitting there and making up some way for that player’s hard work and effort into what he or she made her character worth nothing. If that is what your asking then, I’m sorry maybe you should think of being a PC instead of a DM. If I were you then I would definitely look into the rules surrounding your double wand dealing artificer. While I know first hand they can do some really amazing things. There are limits. And even though they pay less XP for what they make they still pay a heck of a lot. So my advice from one DM to another is to look into the rules and see what it is your Artificer is doing. Valor
nastynate 01-31-06, 08:16 PM	Doesn't an artificer do infusions like a Sorceror does spells? Is one Metamagic feat a full round action for him? Yes but his metamagic item infusion lets him apply a metamagic feat to items for free, and at the cost of additional charges he can apply any metamagic feat to his wands with his metamagic trigger item class ability. So if he buffs for a few rounds, he can unfuse his wands to do really crazy stuff, and in a pinch he can just pay more charges to do the same.
Lord Ian Stark 01-31-06, 08:43 PM	NM, you added more that answered my question.
Lord Ian Stark 01-31-06, 09:00 PM	So spellcasters can use metamagic feats for free on magical items that cast a spell? If it's not free per say how many charges does it take to use it on a wand? What if it's an item like a scroll or something that can cast a spell so many times a day that doesn't have a charge? I really am a noob when it comes to metamagic feats and spellcasting and of course I'm at work looking at the SRD which is a basic overview of the core books only. :D
OGS-Remix 01-31-06, 09:31 PM	So spellcasters can use metamagic feats for free on magical items that cast a spell? If it's not free per say how many charges does it take to use it on a wand? What if it's an item like a scroll or something that can cast a spell so many times a day that doesn't have a charge? No, only certain special classes (Incantatrix, Artificer) have the ability to apply metamagic feats onto items. Normally you cannot apply metamagic feats to triggered magic items at all. You can't use it on scrolls, only on things with charges. The total numbers of charges it takes is 1 + Total Metamagic adjusted levels. So a quickened wand of magic missile would be 5 charges used.
Lord Ian Stark 01-31-06, 09:39 PM	No, only certain special classes (Incantatrix, Artificer) have the ability to apply metamagic feats onto items. Normally you cannot apply metamagic feats to triggered magic items at all. You can't use it on scrolls, only on things with charges. The total numbers of charges it takes is 1 + Total Metamagic adjusted levels. So a quickened wand of magic missile would be 5 charges used. I see, thanks. A wand can only have a max of 50 charges right?
primemover003 01-31-06, 10:15 PM	To bad you can't have quickened wands... spell trigger items take a minimum of 1 standard action to activate. It's been stated in the DMG and the Spell Compendium.
ressurrector 01-31-06, 10:16 PM	To bad you can't have quickened wands... spell trigger items take a minimum of 1 standard action to activate. It's been stated in the DMG and the Spell Compendium. I wouldn't mind some wands of quickened infusions, some of those take 1min to cast. Personal weapon augmentation would be a good one.
astute1 01-31-06, 10:18 PM	1. Wands, especially high-level wands, are not as cheap as they appear. Even with the decreased cost from the craft feats, you're talking about approximatly 15,000gp per wand. Each time you metamagic trigger to maximize, you're using four charges, or 8% of the wand's value. Would your wizard pay 1200 gp every time he wanted to use a maximized fireball? 2. The metamagic item infusion is much better. It allows you to apply one metamagic feat onto the wand for a short duration, with no additional cost in charges. The artificer in my campaign uses it to twin his wand of magic missile in just about every battle. 3. The problem is when the infusion and the special ability stack together - ie. I twin my wand of magic missiles with metamagic item, then maximize it with metamagic trigger. If you feel it's too powerful (and at low levels, at least, it's very powerful) the best way to get around it is to say that the infusion and the ability don't stack. 4. Note that you can't quicken a wand (well, actually, you can apply quicken spell to the spell in the wand, but activating the wand is still a standard action) 5. Note that wands have low hp/hardness. 6. Note that artificers have low bab - thus rendering them very susceptible to disarm attempts. 7. Note that the metamagic item infusion doesn't require that the artificer be the one using the wand after the infusion is cast. :devil:
astute1 01-31-06, 10:20 PM	I wouldn't mind some wands of quickened infusions, some of those take 1min to cast. Personal weapon augmentation would be a good one. You can't apply metamagic feats to infusions, only to spells.
PoeticJustice 01-31-06, 11:10 PM	You should also remember that Keith Baker, on whom we can pin all the blame for the Artificer, has said that Eberron and Complete Arcane are wholly separate works. Had they been designed to integrate with each other beyond minimal d20 system rules, the game designers wouldn't have let the abusive potential slip by. Yes, it is abusive, but because the products aren't designed to be used together, DMs are within rights to deny access to abusive feat combos. If your players fight, explain it to them as I have explained it to you. If they still are no satisfied, allow the build. Then ask them if they, as a party, are comfortable fighting against the same combo, knowing full well it's lethality. I belive the threat of maximized 7d6 (42 damage, ref 14) Fireballs at level 7 should be enough to deter them.
JabberWocky 01-31-06, 11:14 PM	Wouldn't the problem here be what could happen but isn't? If the player in question is aware of all he can do (or blissfully ignorant, there are so few these days) but doesn't do them for game balance and fun's sake, isn't he a much better player in the long run? I've known people who break the game because they can, and those who haven't because they know they shouldn't. If the player becomes a problem then perhaps it could be ruled on, but if he's just taking an interesting or new concept for his character without god-gaming, why is it such a big deal?
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 02-01-06, 12:29 AM	Ultimately, artificers are powerful, but their power comes from two words Downtime and planning. In the long term, if they don't have enough time to build their wands, they have to buy them at full market price. In the short term, if they don't have time to cast their infusions before combat their spellcasting potential is more or less useless (casting time really is killer for Artificers, and they need cooperation from other classes to be able to use it to its full effect). If they don't have accurate information on which to base their plans, they may spend their time building wands of fireball for use against a white dragon, only to find out that it is in fact a red dragon in disguise. In the short term, if a rogue comes back from recon and informs the party that there's only a kobold in the next room, the artificer may decide to not prepare an infusion to augment anyone's equpment at all, while the next room could very well have about a dozen Invisible Stalkers in it. As far as the Blastificer is concerned, those wands are most assuredly not cheap (even if the Artificer is crafting them himself, the most he can save is 25% gold and 25% xp on crafting costs). He is spending a LOT to craft items, and the materials for magic items are so expensive they may not be available. The cost/benefit ratio is nowhere near as good as, say, a Fighter, a Rogue, or a Wizard.
Evengar 02-01-06, 12:34 AM	Simply through some magic-resistant creatures in there, like will-o'-wisps. Or, better yet, creatures with dispel magic abilities. Just have them target dispel the wands. Just make sure your artificer doesn't get the idea to make wands of extended dispel magic. Brrrrrr. It gives me chills. :gah: :help:
Radijs 02-01-06, 07:56 AM	How can you extend dispel magic? Its duration is instantaneous?
Evengar 02-01-06, 06:39 PM	How can you extend dispel magic? Its duration is instantaneous? Yes, but a targeted dispell can suppress the powers of magic items for 1d4 rounds, so you can extend that part of the spell. This would seriously detriment the use of an enemy dual-wand weilding artificer that was used to balance out the party's. Were can you find the Artificer class? I can't find in any of my books or the SRD.
bholdr_mage 02-01-06, 07:20 PM	Were can you find the Artificer class? I can't find in any of my books or the SRD. The Eberron Campaign Setting. Yes, this is more about what COULD happen, and not what is happening in my game. I have already told him that story always trumphs rules, and that game balance is very important to me. Thus, as I told him, if there are too many problems; ie: he blasts the demons in the room in two rounds while the rest of the group sits back and twiddles their thumbs, we would have to reevaluate his feat choices. I also told him that I would do so to ANY player. The idea is to have fun, and if he's the only player having fun by rolling 20d6 each round, he would be the only one having fun. Not me or the other players as we watch the carnage. However, as he rises in level, this could be a huge problem. I will read the save my game articles. But I also wanted to see if I was just overreacting. This is the first Artificer that has played in my game; I have read the rules or else I wouldn't have allowed it. But, I think it's kind of like WoTC. Did they think of all the feats, as someone else mentioned on this thread, when they printed the class? Obviously not, like the Talenta Sharrash. I'm not blaming WoTC for not playtesting the class enough or misprinting the sharrash, but I am stating that I failed to see this "feat combo monster" as I learned during character creation. I had looked at the artificer as a rogue with buff spells instead of stuff like evasion and sneak attack and extra skills. Who could make magic items a lot easier than any other class. I was aware, there was just some concepts that I didn't think of in a two week period.
astute1 02-01-06, 07:24 PM	Yes, but a targeted dispell can suppress the powers of magic items for 1d4 rounds, so you can extend that part of the spell. This would seriously detriment the use of an enemy dual-wand weilding artificer that was used to balance out the party's. Were can you find the Artificer class? I can't find in any of my books or the SRD. The Artificer class can be found in the Eberron Campaign setting, where it was first presented. To my knowledge, it hasn't been printed in any other sources A targetted dispel might be an interesting way to lock down a wand-weilder for a battle - especially since you could cast it after they spend a round using an infusion on it. By the time the dispel ended, the infusion would have likely ended as well. I'm going to try this one and see how it works out. The artificer in my campaign has been twinning that wand of Magic Missile for far too long.
bholdr_mage 02-01-06, 07:28 PM	Ok. So I read the save my game article. It was about artificer and CONSTRUCTS. This isn't the problem, however it brought up some points. I don't know how I could say, or ideally put this; but here's the raw idea. Complete arcane is for arcane casters right? The artificer is neither arcane or divine, even though they can take metamagic feats. I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that the world of Eberron and complete arcane are meant for different worlds. The world of Eberron should be available to the PHB and Eberron only when talking about artificers, does this make any sense? But, if the character isn't going to powergame, and his resources only diminish (by the way, where are the rules about CHARGING items?) as his charges go down in the wand, I am not planning on "fixing" the brokenness until it jabs me in the foot.
Evengar 02-01-06, 08:32 PM	I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that the world of Eberron and complete arcane are meant for different worlds. The world of Eberron should be available to the PHB and Eberron only when talking about artificers, does this make any sense? I think that Eberron and CA are compatable. The difference between Eberron and CA is the same difference between Faerun and CA. I don't believe CA wasn't built for any world in particular. All of the Supplements, unless specifically stated, were written for general use. Campaign settings don't matter. It's almost like saying you can't use CA in the world you've created because CA wasn't written for it. My suggestion would be to smile, nod, say he did a good job, and have someone cast Ice Assassin on him. (Ice Assassin is a spell from Frostburn that creates a exact replica of a creature with the soul purpose of killing the creature, a Lv. 9 spell, but you don't have to have the party fight the spell caster) Have fun with the replica.
Lord Ian Stark 02-01-06, 09:02 PM	I dunno about it being just O.K. I've got an artificer who's able to regularly unleash some pretty spectacular amounts of damage with his wands. Empowered, split, twinned scorching rays with two wands at twelvth level effect fired simultaneously from two wands do some pretty amazing damage. 148d6 damage isn't too shabby is it? 518 average damage per round is on par with some of the most powerful characters out there, and I'm doing that at level twelve! Hmm, that's 8 charges from the primary wand and 10 charges from the off-hand wand every round to do this. (I think) :eek: Now you still have to hit the creature with the scorching rays and hope he isn't immune to fire or have some kind of spell turning. :devil: You won't be doing that too often as you'll burn them wands up in less than a day. One of those wands costs a total of 18,000 GP and 720 EXP to make. (If I did that right) While it may be a little cheaper Gold and EXP wise with feats and class abilities, no matter what, this wouldn't be your characters daily play by play method as he would go broke. ;) Is it crazy overpowering to do that every once in awhile? Maybe, maybe not. The higher levels you get, the higher SR's, more immunities and abilities creatures have. So it's best to do as you are doing by trying it out, and if it gets rediculous, then just say certain things don't stack anymore or next time someone makes an artificer in the group.
bholdr_mage 02-01-06, 09:49 PM	Found the problem. The player took extraordinary artisan TWICE. Yes, RAW you can take the feat multiple times. For those of you unfamiliar to the feat, it allows magic creators to lower the cost by 25%. In the ECS, you can take the feat multiple times and they stack! :eek: Then the Eberron Campaign Setting errata came out. And they went woops! We didn't mean you could take a feat 4 times and create magic items for free. (can you believe someone didn't catch that?) My player thought that the errata stated that you could take it up to 3 times, for a total of 75% (idiot.). Not only that, the guy can't do math. He was using ability score MODIFIERS as his base cost when figuring wondrous items (like gloves of dex) instead of the + to the ability score. I'm typing the math out for him and already he's WAY over (like in the 100,000s of gp) gold limit I started him with. AND, he was basically making magic items and casting permanency on them (not an ability of the artificer). They can only make magical items. I called the guy to find out where he got his figures, and that's when he told me what he thought of the errata (that you can take it a couple or three times, not just 4) and I told him...no...I've got the errata right here in my hand. Reading it. And it says you can take the feat once. yeah. His responce was: That sucks. Can I just make a new character? What's the idea on THAT? I'm kinda ok, kinda reluctant. I mean he could have not really known what was going on. Should I give him the benefit of the doubt?
astute1 02-01-06, 10:59 PM	The player took extraordinary artisan TWICE. Yes, RAW you can take the feat multiple times. For those of you unfamiliar to the feat, it allows magic creators to lower the cost by 25%. In the ECS, you can take the feat multiple times and they stack! :eek: Even RAW you can't take the feat multiple times. You can only take a feat more than once if it explicitly says so in the feat's description. This was a big issue on the Char-Op boards for a little while after the ECS came out.
Lord Ian Stark 02-01-06, 11:10 PM	The fact that he wanted to make a totaly different character after you pointed out his flaws is bogus and shows his true colors IMO. I understand if he misread how feats worked as we all can make a mistake. (Like me and magic ;) ) He can still dual wield wands and just change his feats around. No need to go with a whole different character because it's tougher to make magic items. (Well tougher than he thought) Usually crazy builds are a stretch on the RAW and like nastynate has shown, it is possible, but at a GREAT cost. Gnome Dragon Disciple explained playing an Artificer well in his last post. Keep a close eye on this player you have bholdr_mage. IMO he will attempt another insane build that may not be "exactly" RAW, if you catch my meaning. Hope all works well and you guys get back to fun.
nastynate 02-01-06, 11:29 PM	Hmm, that's 8 charges from the primary wand and 10 charges from the off-hand wand every round to do this. (I think) To go absolutely plumb crazy it takes a bunch of charges, yes. The thing is if you can go nuts, even really tough encounters won't pose a problem. You do have the nova option, when you need it, but it's better to be conservative, and utilize fewer charges most of the time. Oh, and ranged touch attacks are not very difficult to make. Most touch ACs are signifcantly lower than normal ACs. The down time required for crafting is significantly reduced (sometimes totally eliminated) by the unseen crafter infusion, so that's not really an issue. Not to mention the reduced costs provided by salvaging useless minor magical items like the numerous +1 daggers, potions, and scrolls you may find, the extraordinary crafting series of feats, and your craft reserve, really help keep the GP and XP costs down. Last but not least, given that you can go nova, and bump off really high CRs with your wands o' doom, you can rake in the XP at a much faster rate, than a weaker character would. As for allowing generic core books like the complete divine, arcane, warrior, etc. Yes they have a place in Eberron. As it says in the ECS, if exists in D&D there's a place for it in Eberron. Now that doesn't mean you have to allow everything, because really that's up to the DM, but there is certainly no precedent for completely banning them. I wouldn't recommend permitting FR material because that seems kind of silly, but I can see no reason why an exotic weapon master, the arcane disciple feat, or a scout would be problematic. People who think artificers shouldn't be allowed to take metamagic feats are deluding themselves. They have class abilites that pertain directly to using them (like metamagic spell completion & metamagic spell trigger), and they may even take them as bonus feats at every level divisible by 4. Nobody suggests that wizards not have access to them right? So lets be fair to the artificer. Some of their infusions like the afore mentioned metamagic item even require them. The point is Artificers are very abusive, and can do things that not only border on powerful, but even some that scream "I'm totally Ba'Roken!" DMs have to moderate artificers carefully, and ensure that things don't get too crazy, because it's really easy to get really powerful. I play in (and run) really high-powered campaigns, so the artificer fits right in with the persistant divine metamagic wielding cleric, frenzied berserker, and master of many forms. I can't blame those in much more toned-down games from getting a little intimidated by the potential of the artificer. You never want one character to shine in the spotlight all the time, while the other PCs linger in background. That takes away fun factor, but so long as each member of the party excels in their role, I see no problem. :D
bholdr_mage 02-01-06, 11:52 PM	The fact that he wanted to make a totaly different character after you pointed out his flaws is bogus and shows his true colors IMO. I understand if he misread how feats worked as we all can make a mistake. (Like me and magic ;) ) He can still dual wield wands and just change his feats around. No need to go with a whole different character because it's tougher to make magic items. (Well tougher than he thought) Usually crazy builds are a stretch on the RAW and like nastynate has shown, it is possible, but at a GREAT cost. Gnome Dragon Disciple explained playing an Artificer well in his last post. Keep a close eye on this player you have bholdr_mage. IMO he will attempt another insane build that may not be "exactly" RAW, if you catch my meaning. Hope all works well and you guys get back to fun. I completely agree with you. A week ago, I sent the player a list of house rules with what books he could choose stuff from (which was Eberron and core, with my ability to VETO any feat, spell, or whatever from complete books). I specifically asked that he email me feats, ability scores, answers to background questions, mundane items, and magic items with a limit on gold and modifiers for each item. He didn't. Instead, he got with me day of, a few hours before, and already had most of his stuff on a character sheet. SO, we went through the background questions, and went over feats and such. Since I only had a couple hours before he had to leave, and another couple of hours to prepare for the game, I didn't have ample time to study the character build. I trusted the player as I've played with him before, full well knowing based on what I told him earlier, "If it's broken, unbalanced, or causes too many problems, it WILL be fixed. Story always triumphs over rules, and FUN always trumphs over rules. If you have fun or if anyone else has fun and no one else isn't by what some player is doing/creating/how he's acting, the situation will be corrected, as fun is the primary reason we play." Every player has been told this rule. Every player has their character(s) over-analyzed by me. He didn't break the character that evening, so it's good that I got to go over it before something really scary happened. Even though I've spend a better part of the night calculating and figuring out WTF is going on, I understand how magic items are created better, and hopefully he got the message that I will check things and no broken builds will play in any of my groups. Period. If the guy does create a new character, I'm still GOING to have him fix his old one, so he can turn traitor on them, having mournland warforged joing the fray, and watch his newly fixed powergamed character get squished like a bug..... :D I just thought of that. Oh that is so devious. I love thoughts like that....he, he, he....