Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starmage21 09-06-04, 10:36 PM	Sometimes, I dont know why, but every time a new NPC is introduced, I always want to kill him without asking questions. Sometimes theyre annoying, and killing them would be almost justified, and when theyre BBEG killing them is completely justified, but regardless, I want to kill every NPC i meet. How many of you are like me?
Mordmorgan the Mad 09-06-04, 10:48 PM	I'm not, but my brother is. Bothers me to no end :rant: . As a side note, I'm working on a program for people with NPC anger management issues. It's called NPC Stompers Anonymous. :banghead:
Starmage21 09-06-04, 10:50 PM	LOL, It is pretty scary. Even when im playing Paladins and im trying to keep a paladin-like mindset my first instinct is to split any NPC i meet with an axe or sword.
Sensei Gith 09-06-04, 11:09 PM	I've gotten ****** off at two DMPC's. The first was a shadow adept who used a loophole in the alignment rules to be true neutral, even though he used the shadow weave, had shadow adept levels, would gladly kill a Selunite on sight, worshipped an evil deity, et cetera. We finally managed to "find out" about his magical secret. He cast invisibility but the cleric cast a light spell on his cloak. That was really funny. The next one was a snotty, obnoxious, more-gold-elven-than-thou mage. I rolled a natural 20 and stole the spell components right off his belt. The DM got the message after that.
Mordmorgan the Mad 09-06-04, 11:14 PM	Try going with a half-orc barbarian, or better yet, a full blooded orc. At least that way your homicidal rage can be explained as FANTASTIC roleplaying. You may want to have you character speak in one or two word sentances and scream a lot for no reason. OOOHHHH, Plus, give him some nasty scars on his face and chest and never let him wear anything not made of a monster of at least CR 5! Then persuade one of your fellow PCs to get a black iron collar and thick chain, so he can keep you on a short leash. Pretty soon, word will get around about a rabid orc on a leash, and people will hire your party to take down super-powerful NPCs, which you will then be free to smash into jelly (which can then be bottled, and sold as "healing potions"). :88E:
Gellion 09-06-04, 11:29 PM	Umm, I do not think I would want to DM you Starmage. Cause a lot of my NPCs tend to be the kind ones who want to help. And I get angry when they get killed senselessly.
The Shaman 09-06-04, 11:56 PM	Umm, I do not think I would want to DM you Starmage. I'll second that. I think you'd find my games to be frustrating, Starmage, since NPCs often play important roles in the player characters' lives, as mentors, informants, guides, and friends.
Starmage21 09-07-04, 12:17 AM	lol i know they can. It must be something homicidal. First thing i think when meeting a new NPC is to rid the world of him. Now, were actually in an evil game, and my DM is afraid to introduce a long standing NPC shopkeeper named Habib al-Habib Habib
Jason_Vorhees 13 09-07-04, 12:20 AM	Wow I didn't read the names and thought starmage and morgemordin the mad were the same person (But I'm not very observant), and you wouldn't want to be one of my PCs, at least when I'm in a bad mood, because the PC that ticks me off most will sometimes pay by losing a few magical items to a NPC who uses rust monsters.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-07-04, 12:24 AM	It's odd, considering that everyone in the game world that's not your characters is an NPC. You must be very busy trying to kill everyone in the world.
Lord Stigius 09-07-04, 12:44 AM	It happened in a game of mine: Having just arrived into a new town: The PC: CN (at the time of creation; by then I had already labelled him as CE) tiefling rogue/ranger, prospective blackuard, with particular dislike of towns and rulers, skilled (at level 7) in Move Silently... you understand the rest. The NPC (believe me, I did not make him for this encounter... a major plot NPC in this campaign): At first look: elderly duke in silver armor, wearing nonmagical sword. In fact: 17 level rogue/paladin with high Spot & Listen, good Init. modifier You can forsee the outcome...
Stuntman 09-07-04, 01:23 AM	Sometimes, I dont know why, but every time a new NPC is introduced, I always want to kill him without asking questions. It must be interesting (or should I say, pandemonium) when you enter a town, then.
Thanqol 09-07-04, 02:36 AM	Heh, NPCs should always have at least one trick, or be surrounded by other NPCs. My NPCs, even the barkeep, is easily capeable of either taking down the party, or calling others who are that capeable. An NPC is a person. Not a kill-stick. Even annoying NPCs should be tollerated. They usually can be useful. If an NPC has a personality disorder, that's either good roleplaying or simple vengence. Try to tolerate them.
Shapedoctor 09-07-04, 03:03 AM	Umm, I do not think I would want to DM you Starmage. Cause a lot of my NPCs tend to be the kind ones who want to help. And I get angry when they get killed senselessly. Personally, I'd rephrase that first sentence only slightly for my campaign. Umm, I do not think you would want me to DM you Starmage. I have special npcs for guys like you. They even have their own books: Epic Level & Dieties & Demigods. I just prefer gamers that play on a more complex level. Shouldn't this have posted in What's a Player to Do?
Critical Mass 09-07-04, 03:22 AM	Though it's not completely tied to what you're saying, I absolutely refuse to play in any campaign where the DM has a DMPC.
Mordmorgan the Mad 09-07-04, 04:03 AM	Wow I didn't read the names and thought starmage and morgemordin the mad were the same person (But I'm not very observant I hate when people steal my avatar! :headexplo But it's ok. It's occured to me, after reading what I posted, that my sarcasm doesn't come across well in the written form. :)
Raesene_Andu 09-07-04, 04:04 AM	The players in my current campaign are very strange. They are suspicious of anyone who is helpful to them, but trust NPCs who are obviously out to get them. The prime example is an Assassin NPC they rescued from a floating piece of wreckage in the middle of the ocean many, many gaming sessions ago. This assassin is quite obviously up to no good, in fact some time ago she killed the king of a land the PC were in at the time and framed them for the death and after all that, they still trust her more than they trust the travelling merchant who happens to visit their town to sell much needed goods. They're not supposed to be evil PCs, but the actions of one of their party in particular has earned them a death mark in the nearby elven kingdom, and the emnity of a power wizard who is seeking revenge for the death of his daughter. As a DM there is an easy way to deal with homicidal, meglomaniac players, and that is to introduce them to a NPC who can't be killed (at least not easily), who is a good ten or more levels above them, but doesn't show it in his equipment or activities. Perhaps an annoying shop keeper who is actually a retired archmage. That sort of thing. Then, after the dust settles and the surviving PCs come out of their holes, everyone will be a lot nicer to the DMs favourite NPCs from then on... Actually, something like this has happened in my campaign as well, to a PC thief with particularly stickly fingers who thought he was invulnerable, until he tried to pick the pocket of a powerful NPC, got caught and end up running for his life with a mob close on his heals.
Mordmorgan the Mad 09-07-04, 04:15 AM	I find that squishing a PC that frequently tries to smash every NPC they meet usually just encourages them to try harder, or worse yet, attack weaker NPCs. At that point, you've got a PC who runs around town starting fires at random just to get a body count (one of my brother's favorite tricks). The real solution is to either speak with the player and explain that his/her behavior is disruptive, or to just stop inviting them to games.
Raesene_Andu 09-07-04, 04:23 AM	I find that squishing a PC that frequently tries to smash every NPC they meet usually just encourages them to try harder, or worse yet, attack weaker NPCs. At that point, you've got a PC who runs around town starting fires at random just to get a body count (one of my brother's favorite tricks). The real solution is to either speak with the player and explain that his/her behavior is disruptive, or to just stop inviting them to games. Never had a problem like that in my game, perhaps you need to game with a more mature group. In most case you let PCs get away with a few rampages for a while and then have them hunted down by enrarged law-enforcement officials, tossed in gaol, and stripped of all their possessions. I did that to my PCs once, not for being evil, but for assisting an escaped slave in an evil-ruled city. Then they had a fun couple of adventure sessions escaping for the dungeon and fighting all the guards have had divided up their equipment.
Starmage21 09-07-04, 01:36 PM	It must be interesting (or should I say, pandemonium) when you enter a town, then No, it only works on the NPCs by DM thinks it is necessary to point out or intorduce us too. Role-playing an encounter in a shop with a merchant is A-OK until i find out he has a name. THEN i want to kill him :D
Mystery Man 09-07-04, 01:43 PM	The next one was a snotty, obnoxious, more-gold-elven-than-thou mage. I rolled a natural 20 and stole the spell components right off his belt. Considering there is no such thing as a "natural" 20 on a skill role, your DM should probably read his books again. ;)
Mystery Man 09-07-04, 01:51 PM	How many of you are like me? Nobody in my group. You're DM needs to get a spine. Were you in my group, you'd be learning the proper respect (you'd never know which NPC would be a mistake to **** off), or you'd be rolling new characters every game night. ;)
Captain Obvious 09-07-04, 04:07 PM	You want to kill every NPC you meet? I have one thing to say: More power to ya! As a DM, nobody hates NPCs more than I do. 3.5 rules make the generation of a detailed NPC a serious hassle - and keeping track of more than one in a party is so annoying that I often have the NPCs die just to save on overhead. However, I digress. I'm betting that what you're sick of is the "God-in-the-NPC" character. The DM puts the party into such a mess, that the only way out is through their tagalong toady, the NPC. You've seen this guy: he's the one who always thinks of the solution to the riddle, or always saves the day with some previously unknown magic item. He's the guy hanging back from the party until its time to say "Hey guys! I found a secret door!" NPCs like that might as well be a neon sign that reads "I'm a lazy DM." Kill 'em all - slowly. Maybe then the DM with bother to work with the players instead of just feeding the party solutions through their safety-valve NPC.
Blackrazor 09-07-04, 04:48 PM	Considering there is no such thing as a "natural" 20 on a skill role, your DM should probably read his books again. ;) Hurrrr do you know what a natural 20 is? :rolleyes: or maybe you just think the highest roll you can get on a d20 is a 19
trapspringer 09-07-04, 05:38 PM	A DM should not be angered by a player killing an NPC. I don't care what your plans are. Your job is to present the players with a world, and mediate their actions. Also, I second the anti-DMPC statement above. I don't want to mediate for my self. I am not a referee-player.
VirgilCaine 09-07-04, 06:03 PM	Considering there is no such thing as a "natural" 20 on a skill role, your DM should probably read his books again. ;) He said natural 20 not critical.
A Flying Buddha 09-07-04, 06:17 PM	But a natural 20 does not mean success on a skill roll. His point is unless you actaully beat the mage's check, he should've seen you and dropped some serious arcane-whooping on you.
Mystery Man 09-07-04, 06:24 PM	But a natural 20 does not mean success on a skill roll. His point is unless you actaully beat the mage's check, he should've seen you and dropped some serious arcane-whooping on you. Exactly. I did find Blackrazor's attempt at sarcasm amusing though. :cool:
danielinthewolvesden 09-07-04, 06:31 PM	I think our OP is talking about "DMPC"'s- not just NPCs. In other words, a PC of the DM's that adventures with the party. Such a thing is very very often disliked by even good, experienced players, as it is often abused. Few DM's can run one without POed players. Or maybe I am wrong, I am not sure. If the OP wants to kill the shopkeepers and Town guards also, then I think he has the problem. :confused:
Kobold Horde 09-07-04, 09:01 PM	:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: Now what are we talking about here? NPCs, DMPCs, or PCs?
darczero 09-28-04, 04:15 AM	Also been through that one... Mine, however, was a DM whose "NPC" was more like a PC who enjoyed stealing the spotlight from everyone else and always took first spoils of every treasure throughout a game. Another NPC (from the same game, same DM) had a personal vendetta against Thieves and would teleport to the party's location to kill a PC thief (or anything even close to a rogue) as soon as they joined the party. He was a 20th level fighter, by the way. Then their was the Cthulhu/Conan fanatic. He combined the two genres to make something generally unpleasant for all.
MonkeyKing 09-28-04, 05:50 AM	The NPC's in our groups games are excellent...until they join the party or accompany us in any way, at which point they are replaced by a cardboard cut-out of themselves and dragged along behind the group without anyone noticing! Most recently we had a retired ranger NPC join the group to investigate some strange goings on in the local forest (anyone heard of this plot hook before?!). Everyone forgot he even existed until we discovered his corpse on the field after a fairly routine encounter with some trolls. We did the honest thing though - took all his good stuff before rolling him under a bush and continuing on our way!
Starmage21 10-17-04, 08:34 PM	*this is old bump* Heh, I was referring to the real NPCs you encounter. The man on the street, the shop or inn keeper, and all that jazz. Its all fine and dandy while theyre faceless NPCs, but as soon as they have a name and personality, I want to kill them quickly.
Master Agnald 10-17-04, 10:37 PM	Well... one question to Starmage and Mordmorgan... do you guys tend to play many video game RPGs? because if you do, then that may be the reason for your NPC hatred... ...I don't have this kind of problem with my PCs... I tend to kill my own NPCs and DMPCs before they feel like doing it themselves :D ! Well, with the exception of one barbarian NPC that irritated the group's sorceror... as a result the sorceror cast Dominate Person on him... with a ridiculously high save DC and a barbarian's poor will throw the guy ended up following him around (the sorceror even kindly nicknamed him Mubata, the barbarian), until the other PC got ****** off and menaced to kill Mubata if he didn't dispel it... ..there was also one time when said sorceror killed a Dwarf NPC that had been swallowed by a pumped up version of an Ice Worm (he was still alive though... and trying to chop his way out of the monster) by accident... he used a little spell called Evaporation... you should see the look on his face...
ssampier 10-17-04, 10:40 PM	:uh-huh: I thank gawd I don't play in any of your campaigns (I'd be running for the hills taking up stamp collecting before I deal with homicidal players again). :mymy:
Master Agnald 10-17-04, 11:08 PM	:uh-huh: I thank gawd I don't play in any of your campaigns (I'd be running for the hills taking up stamp collecting before I deal with homicidal players again). :mymy: What? You're not referring to my reply, are you?
Mordmorgan the Mad 10-18-04, 08:07 PM	Well... one question to Starmage and Mordmorgan... do you guys tend to play many video game RPGs? because if you do, then that may be the reason for your NPC hatred... Actually it's my little brother, and the last time I played with him, I was 10. I'm sure that if he played now (11 years later), he'd be much better.
kliate 10-18-04, 08:27 PM	I have the occasional NPC with some sort of compulsive-kill disorder, although they usually have a deep-seated reason. Example: Raina Lessit is a Human Werewolf Rgr3. She was taunted by fey during a traumatic point of her childhood, and now has no reservations about killing them on sight. Additionally, when the party was discussing matters with Grith, a hobgoblin of some importance (although his presentation tended to communicate SOME IMPORTANCE!) Raina took action to be sure that she would get to be alone with him. One "why don't you practice those survival skills I've been helping you with, and get us some food" later, her sword was dancing against the hobgoblin's. Reason: she grew up in a village that lost almost half of it's founding population to repetitive goblin attacks. Finally, she's taken action to try and kill the party's troll PC. Reason: He's big, ugly, and too stupid to be trusted. Still, the party lets her live. She's rotten CE to the core - but too useful to the party members and her village. She even abandoned the party several miles into the forest one time because she was getting bored. As for killing all the NPCs, I tend to save that for the video games (when it can be done). No DM to boot me from his group that way.
Uratoh 10-18-04, 08:56 PM	I have a DMPC who was so popular in one game I'm writing her into another one...she's a Black Dragon, forcibly polymorphed into human form, and then snared with a collar that makes her unaffected by transmutation school spells. It also makes her obey any direct commands of those she's assigned to. Goes like this: PC: I could really use some help here! NPC: And I'd really like for you to *beep* yourself!! PC: Help me kill these monsters! NPC: *beep* it....*goes to fight* She NEVER takes any initiative on her own and blatently tries to undermine the party at points, but she;s overall amusing enough to warrent a return.
A R Dragon 10-18-04, 11:09 PM	NPC killing/general chaos- My group went through a phase where they wanted to cause chaos, so I just took the simplest option - I let them. The theives guild wanted a "diversion" so that they could smuggle in some stuff undetected. They...well...suceded, but the theives wern't very pleased besause the market square (prime pickpocket territory) was...well...gone. They had fun, got over the "cause chaos" urge and got on with the game. DMPCs- I personally run plenty of these, but I don't let myself becone too atached to them and I make sure that they either die or fade to background characters rapidly (If I don't, the party will 'help them along', generally with fatal(for the DMPC) results). The important thing is not to pull any special tricks to keep them alive (and don't fudge a roll to keep them alive even if you would for a PC). Also, they sometimes add a lot to the game - like my semi drizzt clone DMPC (lifespan: if not killed upon meeting, probably 2 sessions, possibly up to 5) coming up soon. The main difference between him and a drizzt clone? Repeating hand crossbows.(and yes, he does still do the whole TWF thing) :eek: (got the idea from a character someone mentioned here- "min-max payne") Its all about how you present and use them.
olshanski_home 10-18-04, 11:37 PM	In my opinion, a DM should not have a DMPC, and I don't blame any player who'se first instinct is to kill the DMPC. A DM should be very busy with the real NPCs, setting, descriptions, and running the game. There is absolutely no free time for a DM to be running his own adventuring PC. If the DM has that much free time, that means that they are seriously short-changing thier players, if you have so much free time, your players are not getting enough of your attention, nor is your game. If there are not enough players, that's what henchmen are for... you create a cleric or warrior with barely any personality to tag along with the group... let one of your players run the 2nd character. Not the DM. That being said, if the question is about killing an NPC, then I think the DM is probably not playing them very well. I had one DM who made every NPC a braggart, or a know-it-all, or some other annoying trait that made us hate them. Sure, they had personality, but it was frustrating for the players... we wanted to play good heroic characters, but nobody we met was deserving of a good deed. A good DM will save those annoying traits for the villians. Most of your run-of-the-mill NPCs should be very likeable... either generous, or complementary, or awestruck by the PCs... This includes nobles or other leaders who have a healthy respect for the risks that adventurers face... someone who is glad that they were able to find willing volunteers for such dangerous missions. Nobody wants to kill thier fan club.
Al2902 10-19-04, 05:51 AM	starmage- What do the guards etc. think of your randomly killing NPCs? Or is it that you just *want* to do it, but suppress the urge?
Grayson 10-19-04, 06:52 AM	I've found puberty tends to clear up a lot of feelings like that.
Cantankerous 10-19-04, 07:15 AM	In my opinion, a DM should not have a DMPC, and I don't blame any player who'se first instinct is to kill the DMPC. A DM should be very busy with the real NPCs, setting, descriptions, and running the game. There is absolutely no free time for a DM to be running his own adventuring PC. If the DM has that much free time, that means that they are seriously short-changing thier players, if you have so much free time, your players are not getting enough of your attention, nor is your game. If there are not enough players, that's what henchmen are for... you create a cleric or warrior with barely any personality to tag along with the group... let one of your players run the 2nd character. Not the DM. That being said, if the question is about killing an NPC, then I think the DM is probably not playing them very well. I had one DM who made every NPC a braggart, or a know-it-all, or some other annoying trait that made us hate them. Sure, they had personality, but it was frustrating for the players... we wanted to play good heroic characters, but nobody we met was deserving of a good deed. A good DM will save those annoying traits for the villians. Most of your run-of-the-mill NPCs should be very likeable... either generous, or complementary, or awestruck by the PCs... This includes nobles or other leaders who have a healthy respect for the risks that adventurers face... someone who is glad that they were able to find willing volunteers for such dangerous missions. Nobody wants to kill thier fan club. There are some points I agree with here, but others I see very differently. A good DM, once he has his background set needs to simply keep everything updated and flowing well. Some DM's can do that easily, and some can not do it all. It depends on which kind we're talking about. Especially in small groups of players who don't want to play multiple characters I've thrown in npc's that were all but PC's themselves. They weren't the decision makers in the party, that role is ALWAYS reserved to the players, but in situations were it makes sense for them to do so, they will take initiative to act on their own in the same way that a PC should in a like situation. That is one of the factors that usually, for me at least, seperates a typical npc who might be with the party from a major or personality npc (the kind who are basicly DM played PC's), the ability and desire to take the initiative to act outside of the PC's baisc desires or goals. Instead of taking decisive power away from the PC's it simply makes the game world a more "alive" and vital place. The fact is that when there is role playing as opposed to roll playing, it is difficult for most people to do justice to more than one character at a time. If the players are comfortable doing it, henchmen are ideal, but very often the players are just not comfortable with it and down right bad at trying to accomplish that kind of multi-tasking. Their main character begins to become dry and mechanical when they try to do too much, keep too many variables in mind. A good DM will not force that kind of thing on the players. He'll step up and add one more task to his own list. If he's experienced he's been doing that kind of multi-tasking for so long that one or two or ten more npc's with heavy personality don't distress him much, if at all. As to killing the NPC's just because, gods but that's weak. It's bully syndrome, since the type of man on the street npc discussed isn't any soert of challenge anyway. It seems like someone who's been picked on getting his paltry revenge on something too weak to fight back. As to how I'd handle it as a DM: That's what the City Watch, or other powerful NPC do gooders are for. If a PC begins acting like Charley Manson in one of my games he's liable to very quickly find himself on the run, hunted for bounty, or just dead. If it happens in some out of the way village, a high level Ranger (and maybe his compatriots) will show up, and take the PC into custody, if possible, or simply do their level best to burn the bugger down if not. There is always someone tougher and more experienced who will not take well to such tactics. If the character forgets that, serendipity will remind him right quick. Isshia