Assassin's Death Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin's Death Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vithar
06-20-05, 06:27 PM Per the SRD:

Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

The player has a high level Assassin. 13th Fighter / 4th Assassin. Base Attack is 16 so he has 4 attacks per round. Can he:

Make four ranged attacks. The first three are arrows dipped in Con reducing poison. The 4th is a Death Attack. I ruled it as a no. I said that because the 3 attacks prior the victim was aware of the assassin and therefore the 4th attack was only a normal sneak attack.

What do you think?
Tusz
06-20-05, 06:31 PM While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.
I'd say that shooting three arrows at someone will cause them to recognize you as an enemy, yes. You're right in this case.
Shaken, not Stunned
06-20-05, 06:33 PM Yea, I think you did good.
Vithar
06-20-05, 06:47 PM Ok he is responding with another question. This one I am not so sure on.

The Assassin casts Poison. Makes a claw attack against the victim. If the victim fails the saving throw versus the poison, does the Con damage happen before the Death Attack Fort Save or since it is the same attack is the Death Attack dealt with before the Poison damage is applied?
Aurum
06-20-05, 07:10 PM While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy

So, your assassin has to not be recognized as an enemy.

This limits the Deathstrike to sneak attacks, primarily while the target is flat-footed.

This depends on the definition of "the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy". As a DM, I would treat that recognization exactly as if the target was flat-footed (aka the 'Julius Caesar' rule): the target considers you a friend until it is capable of acting against you as an enemy. That is, that the target can still be Deathstruck until it is no longer flat-footed.

The Assassin casts Poison. Makes a claw attack against the victim. If the victim fails the saving throw versus the poison, does the Con damage happen before the Death Attack Fort Save or since it is the same attack is the Death Attack dealt with before the Poison damage is applied?

Well, look at the spell 'Poison'.

Poison
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Drd 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later. Each instance of damage can be negated by a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your Wis modifier).

I'd say that the poison would kick in before the injury, since the poison requires no injury, the deathstrike might not kill 'instantly', and magic is magic. So, that means that the Deathstrike Fort save might suffer a penalty from the Con damage.
Siduakal
06-21-05, 12:33 PM NO he can't do a death attack AT ALL with a ranged weapon.

Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

It says specifically a melee weapon.
Szat
06-21-05, 07:15 PM Can he couple the poison spell either? It says it has to be a touch attack, wouldn't a sneak attack be something different.
Vithar
06-21-05, 08:33 PM I would have to look up the specifics but in the Tomb of Blood they give examples of using spells like Shocking Grasp or Scorching Ray to make sneak attacks. It also states that you can deliver a touch spell as part of a successful unarmed strike if you take the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. So I assume that a person with a claw attack could cast a spell and deliver it as part of a successful claw attack. So I think that yes he could deliver the poison attack but what is the order of operation from that point on?

If it is Death Attack must be resolved before Poison DC is resolved then the Assassin does not gain the effects of the lowered Con. If the Poison does take affect first then the assassin gets a greater chance at a death attack. That makes taking the poison spell much more attractive.
Vithar
06-21-05, 08:34 PM NO he can't do a death attack AT ALL with a ranged weapon.

It says specifically a melee weapon.

Ok bad example. Change it to say he makes 4 melee attacks. The question still applies. Can I apply poison to my melee weapon and still get a death attack on the 4th hit?
Siduakal
06-22-05, 12:13 PM It doesn't say yes or no. I would houserule no. Simply because you have hit them THREE TIMES they are aware of you!

You observe them 3 rounds unnoticed before you can death attack.. You can't be noticed by them. Then you death attack, hitting 3 times makes them VERY aware you are there. I don't care if I'm flat footed IRL, if I get punched 2-3 times IRL, I'm defending against the 3rd or 4th depending on what was going on before I got hit the first time.

People don't react that slow.
The Abominable Darkling
06-22-05, 01:34 PM Ok bad example. Change it to say he makes 4 melee attacks. The question still applies. Can I apply poison to my melee weapon and still get a death attack on the 4th hit?Absolutely he can. It doesn't matter if the target recognizes the assassin as enemy. That stipulation applies only to the 3 rounds of study. Once the study is complete, the assassin can use his death attack on any sneak attack made within the next three rounds, and there's nothing the victim can do about it.

While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.
Gold Katana
06-22-05, 02:09 PM TAD has it right. The recognizing enemy bit only applies to the study portion. The assassin could even study for 3 rounds, engage in melee for two complete rounds, and launch his death attack in the third round, if conditions were such that he is allowed a sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vithar 06-20-05, 06:27 PM	Per the SRD: Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. The player has a high level Assassin. 13th Fighter / 4th Assassin. Base Attack is 16 so he has 4 attacks per round. Can he: Make four ranged attacks. The first three are arrows dipped in Con reducing poison. The 4th is a Death Attack. I ruled it as a no. I said that because the 3 attacks prior the victim was aware of the assassin and therefore the 4th attack was only a normal sneak attack. What do you think?
Tusz 06-20-05, 06:31 PM	While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. I'd say that shooting three arrows at someone will cause them to recognize you as an enemy, yes. You're right in this case.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-20-05, 06:33 PM	Yea, I think you did good.
Vithar 06-20-05, 06:47 PM	Ok he is responding with another question. This one I am not so sure on. The Assassin casts Poison. Makes a claw attack against the victim. If the victim fails the saving throw versus the poison, does the Con damage happen before the Death Attack Fort Save or since it is the same attack is the Death Attack dealt with before the Poison damage is applied?
Aurum 06-20-05, 07:10 PM	While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy So, your assassin has to not be recognized as an enemy. This limits the Deathstrike to sneak attacks, primarily while the target is flat-footed. This depends on the definition of "the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy". As a DM, I would treat that recognization exactly as if the target was flat-footed (aka the 'Julius Caesar' rule): the target considers you a friend until it is capable of acting against you as an enemy. That is, that the target can still be Deathstruck until it is no longer flat-footed. The Assassin casts Poison. Makes a claw attack against the victim. If the victim fails the saving throw versus the poison, does the Con damage happen before the Death Attack Fort Save or since it is the same attack is the Death Attack dealt with before the Poison damage is applied? Well, look at the spell 'Poison'. Poison Necromancy Level: Clr 4, Drd 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: Instantaneous; see text Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later. Each instance of damage can be negated by a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your caster level + your Wis modifier). I'd say that the poison would kick in before the injury, since the poison requires no injury, the deathstrike might not kill 'instantly', and magic is magic. So, that means that the Deathstrike Fort save might suffer a penalty from the Con damage.
Siduakal 06-21-05, 12:33 PM	NO he can't do a death attack AT ALL with a ranged weapon. Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. It says specifically a melee weapon.
Szat 06-21-05, 07:15 PM	Can he couple the poison spell either? It says it has to be a touch attack, wouldn't a sneak attack be something different.
Vithar 06-21-05, 08:33 PM	I would have to look up the specifics but in the Tomb of Blood they give examples of using spells like Shocking Grasp or Scorching Ray to make sneak attacks. It also states that you can deliver a touch spell as part of a successful unarmed strike if you take the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat. So I assume that a person with a claw attack could cast a spell and deliver it as part of a successful claw attack. So I think that yes he could deliver the poison attack but what is the order of operation from that point on? If it is Death Attack must be resolved before Poison DC is resolved then the Assassin does not gain the effects of the lowered Con. If the Poison does take affect first then the assassin gets a greater chance at a death attack. That makes taking the poison spell much more attractive.
Vithar 06-21-05, 08:34 PM	NO he can't do a death attack AT ALL with a ranged weapon. It says specifically a melee weapon. Ok bad example. Change it to say he makes 4 melee attacks. The question still applies. Can I apply poison to my melee weapon and still get a death attack on the 4th hit?
Siduakal 06-22-05, 12:13 PM	It doesn't say yes or no. I would houserule no. Simply because you have hit them THREE TIMES they are aware of you! You observe them 3 rounds unnoticed before you can death attack.. You can't be noticed by them. Then you death attack, hitting 3 times makes them VERY aware you are there. I don't care if I'm flat footed IRL, if I get punched 2-3 times IRL, I'm defending against the 3rd or 4th depending on what was going on before I got hit the first time. People don't react that slow.
The Abominable Darkling 06-22-05, 01:34 PM	Ok bad example. Change it to say he makes 4 melee attacks. The question still applies. Can I apply poison to my melee weapon and still get a death attack on the 4th hit?Absolutely he can. It doesn't matter if the target recognizes the assassin as enemy. That stipulation applies only to the 3 rounds of study. Once the study is complete, the assassin can use his death attack on any sneak attack made within the next three rounds, and there's nothing the victim can do about it. While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.
Gold Katana 06-22-05, 02:09 PM	TAD has it right. The recognizing enemy bit only applies to the study portion. The assassin could even study for 3 rounds, engage in melee for two complete rounds, and launch his death attack in the third round, if conditions were such that he is allowed a sneak attack.