Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryusage 04-07-06, 04:37 PM	I've been DMing for roughly 4 months and in my first session I noticed that it was too easy for players (when we used the ability score system described in the PHB) to up a stat by one or two after their rolls, effectively cheating. So when I decided that for this upcoming session we would be using the Standard Point Buy (25 points) a couple players freaked. P1: But we'll be so WEAK! Me: Last campaign you had three 18's. P1: So? It wasn't so overpowering! Me: Nevertheless you were much stronger than the others so this time I'm hoping to even things up. P2: *looks to be near tears* So... I think I'm right on this one since it's my campaign I guess I can decide that, but I'd like everyone's opinion on this. Is the SPB underpowered? Or should it be fine if I plan accordingly when I assign foes?
Suzaku455 04-07-06, 05:05 PM	Just remember point buy hurts players who need multiple high scores and favors wizards and sorcerers who needs only one high score. Jobs like Monk, Paladin, Rogue etc are hurt by low point buy like Standard and "Tougher" 28 buy.
Burgundy Lotus 04-07-06, 05:21 PM	Try a 32 point point buy, not to overpowering but not weak either. It'll allow 5 14s and a 10, or 18 12 11 11 11 11
olshanski_home 04-07-06, 05:41 PM	I am currently DMing a 25 point buy. It works fine. I am playing in a game in which we have fewer players than we are supposed to, so the DM gave us a 28 point buy.
starfire311 04-07-06, 06:19 PM	I've been DMing for roughly 4 months and in my first session I noticed that it was too easy for players (when we used the ability score system described in the PHB) to up a stat by one or two after their rolls, effectively cheating. So when I decided that for this upcoming session we would be using the Standard Point Buy (25 points) a couple players freaked. P1: But we'll be so WEAK! Me: Last campaign you had three 18's. P1: So? It wasn't so overpowering! Me: Nevertheless you were much stronger than the others so this time I'm hoping to even things up. P2: *looks to be near tears* So... I think I'm right on this one since it's my campaign I guess I can decide that, but I'd like everyone's opinion on this. Is the SPB underpowered? Or should it be fine if I plan accordingly when I assign foes? I prefer to play in games that use point-buy, rarly do I ever use the standard point buy system though when I run them... many, many times I use a convoluted die rolling method that in the end assures that all the players will have equal stats to any other player, but they ussually do not realize this. I don't even know what the stats will end up beinging, buut they are always balanced within the group, if the groups stats came out high or low I can easily adjust the encounters for this, and in fact, my BBEGs stats are determined the same way my players are.
loaba 04-07-06, 06:42 PM	25pb is too low, 28pb is okay and 32pb is damn good. 25pb is, like a previous poster said, makes it hard on the classes that suffer from MAD, or Multiple Ability Dependence (like Paladin). 28pb is only 3 points higher than the 25, but those points do make a very real difference. 28pb is my personal min, both as a DM and as a player. 32pb is over the top, you will have powerful characters at this level.
dungeonmasterblog 04-07-06, 06:50 PM	I use the 28 point buy as well and it works well enough. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
leixela 04-07-06, 09:07 PM	We started using a 30 point system. It allows for only 1 18 if a player places 16 points into a stat. Pretty nice. Many players were hesitant, but we'd just played in a campaign where ONE player could slaughter the rest with his 3 18s and another player had a highest stat of 14...
Board_Rider 04-07-06, 09:46 PM	25 Point buy is fine as that is what is "supposed" to be used. Unfortunetly it does cripple M.A.D. PCs, however the PCs will not mow through encounters at lower levels. Additionally your Players may roleplay a touch more knowing that they are not as uber as past characters.
starfire311 04-07-06, 10:15 PM	25 Point buy is fine as that is what is "supposed" to be used. Unfortunetly it does cripple M.A.D. PCs, however the PCs will not mow through encounters at lower levels. Additionally your Players may roleplay a touch more knowing that they are not as uber as past characters. people say 25 points cripples a MAD PC... I just dont see it... I can play a Monk Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Chr 8 just fine, I would not feel crippled and at level 4 when I bump my con I would feel anything but crippled. In fact it is rare that I ever buy over a 14 in a stat even for something like a fighter my 25 point fighter is generally, but this changes based on character concept. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Chr 9 It is rare that I play a 25 point game, but if I do, I would not feel gimped even with a "MAD" character.
Suzaku455 04-07-06, 10:23 PM	what does MAD stand for?
Board_Rider 04-07-06, 10:43 PM	people say 25 points cripples a MAD PC... I just dont see it... I can play a Monk Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Chr 8 just fine, I would not feel crippled and at level 4 when I bump my con I would feel anything but crippled. In fact it is rare that I ever buy over a 14 in a stat even for something like a fighter my 25 point fighter is generally, but this changes based on character concept. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Chr 9 It is rare that I play a 25 point game, but if I do, I would not feel gimped even with a "MAD" character. True, but many Players are not like you and if they don't have a 16 in at least one stat...well, you have read the threads. Personally, I do not mind a 25PB but my players would never go with it.. what does MAD stand for? Multiple Ability Dependent
ressurrector 04-07-06, 10:43 PM	MAD= Multiple Ability Disorder (I think) Pretty much classes that need many more stats to be decent. Monks are one example, they need Wis, Dex, Con, Str to be good. All three campaigns I currently play in use a modified Point buy: add all your stats together (before racial mods), the total equals 78(for one campaign) 80 (for another) and 74+1d6 (75-80 for the third). It makes it a bit easier on MAD characters, and casters are pretty happy to have 18 casting stat, high dex, and high con.
allencon 04-07-06, 10:54 PM	I've never had problems either using a PBS as DM or as a PC. A few thigns to concider though... What is the effective "power level" of the campaign and the challenges the PCs will be facing? If it's a tough drag out world, and low ability scores will mean doom for the PC's a higher PBS may be necessary. However, the normal point buy works fine if the party encounters the noraml percentile difficulty for challenges in its adventure course. 50% of all encounters should be equal to the APL; about 20% should be APL -1; 10% should be APL - 1d4; about 15 % APL + 1d4; and only 5% should be APL + X where X is =/>5.
Ongorth 04-07-06, 11:13 PM	Personally I think its best to just let your players pick there stacks and let social pressure sort it out. But, I've never met anyone who seriously wanted three 18s just because. Like A-Con said, if your running encounters out of the book, the 25 PB is completely sufficient. PCs should be worrying about the relative size of the stat based on the size of the buy, because theoretically if you use a bigger buy, you really should raise the monsters ability scores (or use more/harder monsters) in kind. The only reason to raise the buy would be to make the game easier, NOT more powerful. Thanks to the leveling system, D&D is based on relative power, not absolute power. Is it really relevant how badly a level 20 character can whoop a CR 1/4 kobold? Or that a level 3 fighter can't beat a Elder Earth elemental? Anyway, there are plenty of other ways to raise relative power besides higher abilities to look into. PrCs, above average wealth, mixing various non-core books in strange and unusual ways all come to mind. Or, you could play a cleric. Rack 'em.
Grey_Mage 04-08-06, 03:20 AM	I've been DMing for roughly 4 months and in my first session I noticed that it was too easy for players (when we used the ability score system described in the PHB) to up a stat by one or two after their rolls, effectively cheating. So when I decided that for this upcoming session we would be using the Standard Point Buy (25 points) a couple players freaked. P1: But we'll be so WEAK! Me: Last campaign you had three 18's. P1: So? It wasn't so overpowering! Me: Nevertheless you were much stronger than the others so this time I'm hoping to even things up. P2: *looks to be near tears* So... I think I'm right on this one since it's my campaign I guess I can decide that, but I'd like everyone's opinion on this. Is the SPB underpowered? Or should it be fine if I plan accordingly when I assign foes? Do you mean that they changed the number manually? Or that they used a races ability scores? Or just from progression? The latter two I dont understand how they could be cheating... the first quite plainly is. A simple solution? What them as they role, and have them report their roles to you. You write down the numbers for each player and hand them their character sheet with the stats to the left of the stat boxes in the order they were rolled, all seven of them. If a single character seems much weaker than the rest, or in any case that they dont get atleast a 0 mod total, let them reroll. Doesnt take any real time, means they cant cheat on their numbers, and allows the fun and excitement of random rolling.
Nom 04-08-06, 07:54 AM	25 Point buy is fine as that is what is "supposed" to be used. Unfortunetly it does cripple M.A.D.Aside: MAD = "Multi-ability dependency". Also SAD = "Single-ability dependency". Basically, how many different ability scores are the focus your class abilities. A wizard is the archetypal SAD - all his class abilities are derived from Int. This doesn't mean other abilities aren't useful, but they aren't critical to his core class abilities. A paladin is the archetypal MAD - he has class abilities that depend on Cha and Wis, plus the expectation that he will have Str (and Con) for melee fighting. What some people miss is that a MAD character is not expected to have 16s or better in all his key abilities. It's often worthwhile for a wizard to take a 16 or even 18 Int, but that doesn't leave him with many points to spread around the other abilities. The MAD character is expected to stop at 14, using stacking bonuses from multiple abilities to make up for (and even exceed) one single large bonus from a single ability. My experience is that 25 points is a good SAD/MAD balance point. A heavy SAD focus leaves you with only one or two decent abilities, while an MAD character can afford several 14s. 28 through 32 helps SAD, since they now have enough points to grab an 18 and spread the rest around. Above 32, it swings back towards MAD, because they now have enough points to have exceptional scores in multiple abilities, which helps MAD a lot more than SAD. PCs, however the PCs will not mow through encounters at lower levels. Additionally your Players may roleplay a touch more knowing that they are not as uber as past characters.I agree with this. 25 points is not weak, and I've found that the game fits better (and feat pre-reqs are more meaningful) as I've gone down from 30 to 25 points. "We're so weak!" usually just means that you can no longer play characters who are 4th level in power while pretending that "level 1" on your sheet is actually representative of your capabilities. If you want to get back to that power level with 25 points, just start at level 4. It has the nice side effect that the game balance scales correctly.
Cantankerous 04-08-06, 08:24 AM	Standard point buy is in no manner over powering. True, MAD characters don't get as many of the bonuses they'd like as high as they'd like them...but hey, we never get everything we want. MAD characters do not NEED to have bonuses in everything that could give them bonuses at 1st level. A 1st level Monk is as likely to be able to forge his way through that quartet of Kobolds as a 1st level Fighter will; with both at a 25PB. Hey, even the non-elite array is capable of producing a playable Monk with some sass to him (probably by going with a 13 Wisdom and 12 Dex) and that's done on a 15PB. His flurry of blows makes up for his lack of strength bonus to damage and even adds a bit of built in versatility with all the special function weapons that are options he can easily explore. BUT To make this work, you as DM have to be very stingy with the Elite or better NPCs you use. A BIG majority of their opossition needs to be standard array, as the standard game sets it, without too many Elites running about, or they then will be right about being under-powered...as the PCs are the active folk...the NPCs are very often one shots and can be built in a stilted way to acheive a purpose that the PCs can't afford to engage in. Isshia
kelvinaw273 04-08-06, 09:07 AM	I'm in a 26 point buy campaign, and it works fine with opne proviso: don't expect to be able to multi-class easily. You can get a good character build, but your character will have to be very focussed. The problem we found was that although we had some great characters we didn't have a very balanced party (mostly fighting types). Normally I would say hey-ho, multi-class one or two. But we don't have the stats for anyone to be a spellcaster of any worth (except my Monk, who could split as a cleric but would have to burn feats and lose out a lot in the long run). Our rogue has gone for speed over brains, our fighters, while by no means stupid, are not mental giants and one is, shall we say, socially challenged. If you want more flexible builds, go for 30 points. In one of my campaigns I went as high as 36, and every player multi-classed rather than maxing out.
DM_Firecracker 04-08-06, 09:41 AM	We have been using 32pb system for a long time, so far I haven't had any characters that were sick on a stick, and everyone stays at about the same level. My mathmaticly inclined player sat down and figured out that if you are willing to take one crap stat you can have 16,16,14,12,10,8. Most of my players do that, or similar, and there haven't been any problems. We tried to 28 system, but I like slightly more powerfull games, and more powerfull NPCs (many of my BBEGs have stats around 18,18,16,14,12,10), so this keeps us both happy.
Evil DM Mk3 04-08-06, 09:54 AM	Just to say whilst Iwill play under it, I hate point buy. I have seen enough str 8 cha 8 int 18 dex 14 wizards to make me scream. They all end up like they where made with cookie cutters, some of the special is taken away. To hammer the point home last time I was told we where doing point buy I generated the character before we turned up and simply handed it to the DM, took out the latest Terry P. and set to reading. Not fun.
Aldarionn 04-08-06, 09:55 AM	I have no problem playing with whatever stat determining method my DM sets for me, but when I DM I usually have my players roll up stats on 4d6 and drop the lowest. They get a single floating reroll. To make things a bit more interesting, they can roll 3 sets of stats. Sometimes I let them choose which set they want (as int he current campaign), but sometimes I'll make them give up the previous set to roll up a new one. Once they get to their 3rd set they have to take it even if it's worse than the first. The players in my current game are a bit powerful because they have pretty high stats, but it's not just that. They have some nice magic items and are somewhat optimised. One of my players will be DMing a campaign once this one ends, and I just finished creating my character for that campaign. I legitimatly rolled 18 17 17 17 15 15 for my character, but this is OK, because I will be playing a 13th level cleric who is also the party tank. I need Str, Con, Dex, Wis, and Cha for my character to be effective, so having all of these stats as high as they are will ensure that I function in the role I am intended to play. Could I function with a 25 point buy system? Yes, I could do just fine if the DM takes it into account when he designs encounters for the party, and the rest of the players are on a similar level, but in this campaign the DM will be throwing powerful monsters at us, so our characters are created to be powerful as well. One interesting idea I had for a campaign would be to have the players roll their stats in order before they pick their class (IE roll for STR first, DEX second, etc....). This allows them to pick a class best suited to the stat line they rolled, and it would be somewhat realistic. Wouldn't a PC pick a class based on his streingths, and not the other way around? :D Anyway, my point is this. Have the players generate their stats in whatever manner you wish, but keep it in mind when you determine what challenges to send at the party and how much experiance they should be recieving for said encoutners (IE a party using 25 point buy might find a Troll challenging even if it's one or two CR's lower than the group, and they should get exp according to the challenge, but the same party would steamroll the same Troll with rolled stats that came out on the high end, and they shouldn't get as much exp). Just tell your players to quit whining and make characters. Aldarionn
kelvinaw273 04-08-06, 10:22 AM	Just to say whilst Iwill play under it, I hate point buy. I have seen enough str 8 cha 8 int 18 dex 14 wizards to make me scream. They all end up like they where made with cookie cutters, some of the special is taken away. To hammer the point home last time I was told we where doing point buy I generated the character before we turned up and simply handed it to the DM, took out the latest Terry P. and set to reading. Not fun. Demonstrating a vast lack of anything remotely resembling imagination. How sad. Have you considered that not everyone wants to min-max at one thing? Did it occur to you to take your intelligence down and boost your strength and con in order to add a level or two of swashbuckler? How about jacking up your wisdom and crossing as a cleric for mystic theurge? How about improving your charisma and taking some levels as bard to get light armour and better weapons (and a few spells you don't need a book for)? Point buy allows you to have the character you want. If all you do is use it to max out monotonous clones of the same maxed-out characters, shame on you, you have yet to discover role-playing.
jagraham 04-08-06, 11:06 AM	If there is concern about player honesty, go with the point buy, so it can be audited at any time. I usually run with fairly high stats players because they like it. I like the party to have good saves and hp, so they can take some punishment. However, I maintain balance with magic items. For example, if both fighters have a 17 Str, the average level of magic plus on weapons will be lower in the campaign. Each 2 pts of str is +1, so having a +2 longsword instead of a +3 offsets 2 pts of str.
terrainmonkey 04-08-06, 11:19 AM	here's what i do. no point buys, no rolling stats. i give everyone the same numbers. where they put them is up to them, then adding in racial bonuses after that. here's the numbers: 18, 17, 15, 13, 12, 10. This gives them no negatives, and everyone in the party is roughly the same. i tend to run a higher than lethal game, but i've found that none of my players has ever had a problem with this way. it's quick, simple, and gives even thos MAD characters a few good abilities to mix into the prereqs. anyway, that's how i run it. comments are welcome.
kelvinaw273 04-08-06, 11:55 AM	here's what i do. no point buys, no rolling stats. i give everyone the same numbers. where they put them is up to them, then adding in racial bonuses after that. here's the numbers: 18, 17, 15, 13, 12, 10. This gives them no negatives, and everyone in the party is roughly the same. i tend to run a higher than lethal game, but i've found that none of my players has ever had a problem with this way. it's quick, simple, and gives even thos MAD characters a few good abilities to mix into the prereqs. anyway, that's how i run it. comments are welcome. That's an interesting idea, I may try it.
nastynate 04-08-06, 12:00 PM	here's what i do. no point buys, no rolling stats. i give everyone the same numbers. where they put them is up to them, then adding in racial bonuses after that. here's the numbers: 18, 17, 15, 13, 12, 10. This gives them no negatives, and everyone in the party is roughly the same. i tend to run a higher than lethal game, but i've found that none of my players has ever had a problem with this way. it's quick, simple, and gives even thos MAD characters a few good abilities to mix into the prereqs. anyway, that's how i run it. comments are welcome. What is that? 48 point-buy...seems a little over-powered to me. -Nasty-
Witch 04-08-06, 12:02 PM	What is that? 48 point-buy...seems a little over-powered to me. -Nasty- I myself use a 46 point buy, and I know it is very strong. However, seeing as my NPCs use a similar amount, and every player has the same, it's not really unbalancing.
CryoSilver 04-08-06, 12:12 PM	I've been using point buy for an online campaign because I can't be there to watch my players roll their scores, and it works pretty well. I use 32 point buy. And I never saw the point in taking an 18 with point buy, since if you take a 17, you save 3 points and can just up it at level 4....
terrainmonkey 04-08-06, 01:40 PM	witch is pretty correct. i tend toward the heroic when i make my BBEGs and serious NPCs. i usually have the bad guy about 3 or 4 levels higher than the average group level anyway. that's the way my players like it though. that's why i use those stats. i've been doing this for a long time, and i've never found it unbalancing at all. it's all a matter of taste. i've always seen the point buy system as blah anyway. it just creates a watered down bland character, utterly balanced with no shining points. and as for MAD characters, you really have to dumb your pc down a lot. i've seen point buy characters with 14s in 4 stats just so the pc could become an able character. IMC with the stats above, you would have a paladin with these possibilities: s:15, D:10, C:13, I:12, W:17, Ch:18. He's a good diplomat from a royal family who has a good diplomacy score, and when he turns undead, he's pretty good at it. He's a member of the militant arm of the church of good, scouring the world to slay undead. Wizard: S:12, D:15, C:17, I:18, W:13, Ch:10 Give these stats to a Grey elf wizard and you've got the following: S:10, D:17, C:15, I:20, W:13, Ch:10. he's still got +11 modifier total, but he's jsut a little better than the rest, and he hates humans, give him a bow and he's a good sniper. add ranger elvels later on and you've got the perfect arcane archer. anyway, i could go on, but i think you get the point.
DM_Firecracker 04-08-06, 02:25 PM	Sometimes I'll even lett eh players go with strraight 18s, and no ability increase until either 8th or 12th level. Of course I up my monster/NPC stats to match, but it makes the charactes feel more powerfull, and allows for a tougher gameplay.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-08-06, 02:40 PM	I've been DMing for roughly 4 months and in my first session I noticed that it was too easy for players (when we used the ability score system described in the PHB) to up a stat by one or two after their rolls, effectively cheating. Do you mean that they changed the number manually? Or that they used a races ability scores? Or just from progression? The latter two I dont understand how they could be cheating... the first quite plainly is.Yeah, I'd like clarification on this too. What do you mean cheating? Because racial mods and 4th-level ability points are well within the rules.
Lokathor 04-08-06, 03:44 PM	One interesting idea I had for a campaign would be to have the players roll their stats in order before they pick their class (IE roll for STR first, DEX second, etc....). This allows them to pick a class best suited to the stat line they rolled, and it would be somewhat realistic. Wouldn't a PC pick a class based on his streingths, and not the other way around? 2nd Ed was like that... at least as the default rolling. 3d6 in order. I think they changed it because of the ease that a player could end up with a character that they dont' want to play at all. People don't like being shoehorned while they're playing a game. I just let my players pick what they want, and adjust to match. Another idea I had was to run 30 pointbuy for Wiz/Cle/Dru, 32 for most classes, and 34 for the Fighter. I'm not sure how it'd come out though, because as it is my players don't seem to get how the cleric and druid are overpowered when I explain it to them. I just let them be.
Witch 04-08-06, 03:51 PM	A fun thing would also be: Choose your class. Then, roll your ability scores. For sake of playability, 5d6, drop lowest two. In order. So lets say you play a Wizard. You get Str 18 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 17 Looks like you'd better become a gish :)
ressurrector 04-08-06, 04:56 PM	One interesting idea I had for a campaign would be to have the players roll their stats in order before they pick their class (IE roll for STR first, DEX second, etc....). This allows them to pick a class best suited to the stat line they rolled, and it would be somewhat realistic. Wouldn't a PC pick a class based on his streingths, and not the other way around? :D This is a good idea, I might suggest however that you allow the characters to switch the place of two stats, once. Say replace their cha with dex, and vice versa. If you come up with a good monk set of stats, but with 6 con, switching would be nice. (12 14 6 10 16 12, or something like that) A more pointed example would be 18 18 3 10 10 10 (while unlikely, this is a case in which switching would be nice)
loaba 04-08-06, 07:25 PM	Spent the afternoon playing around with the 25pb and I have come to a conclusion. If you do elect to use a 25, then you should not limit magic item availability.
CryoSilver 04-08-06, 07:30 PM	A fun thing would also be: Choose your class. Then, roll your ability scores. For sake of playability, 5d6, drop lowest two. In order. So lets say you play a Wizard. You get Str 18 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 17 Looks like you'd better become a gish :) Looks like if I had to play that wizard I'd have him jump off the nearest cliff and roll a new character.
Rhomphaia 04-08-06, 08:31 PM	When I DM, I would like to use the 32 point-buy. I like the characters I DM for to be rather heroic and pull off some somewhat insane stuff while adventuring. it adds to the fun. However, the group I am in uses a different method and I use that simply because it is what everyone knows, and the method seems to work. it approximates a 28-32 point buy but with the advantage of getting to have an 18 without dumping everything you have into that 18. All ability scores start at zero, then you have 75 points to use to buy your stats. All points are used on a 1:1 basis. This makes for some very effective characters. For example, I played a gnome wizard with the following stats; 10, 14, 10, 18, 13, 10. A strong character, but not overpowering by any means...especially not with the cleric running around. In play, this worked out well especially since each character had one or two traits they were really good at, but they were pretty weak in others. Encounters were balanced overall, and the characters were actually better able to make use of their resources (something else I discovered with higher ability scores). Anyway, that is just the way we do it...and I have never seen a cookie-cutter character with this method...In fact, i am almost thinking of playing a Tick-like character with high physical ability scores and a low Intelligence and Wisdom...might be kinda fun.
Board_Rider 04-08-06, 10:14 PM	Aside: MAD = "Multi-ability dependency". Also SAD = "Single-ability dependency". Basically, how many different ability scores are the focus your class abilities.... <SNIP> ... My experience is that 25 points is a good SAD/MAD balance point. A heavy SAD focus leaves you with only one or two decent abilities, while an MAD character can afford several 14s. 28 through 32 helps SAD, since they now have enough points to grab an 18 and spread the rest around. Above 32, it swings back towards MAD, because they now have enough points to have exceptional scores in multiple abilities, which helps MAD a lot more than SAD. I agree with this. 25 points is not weak, and I've found that the game fits better (and feat pre-reqs are more meaningful) as I've gone down from 30 to 25 points. "We're so weak!" usually just means that you can no longer play characters who are 4th level in power while pretending that "level 1" on your sheet is actually representative of your capabilities. If you want to get back to that power level with 25 points, just start at level 4. It has the nice side effect that the game balance scales correctly. I think that we are agreeing. Is that the case? It has been my XP that my players hate 25 point buy because a Wizard can focus on 1 good ability while the party Paladin is thinning himself out. Thats all I was meaning about "weakining" a party with a 25PB spread system. Personally I use a 32PB because it keeps the players happy and keeps them coming back.
ressurrector 04-08-06, 10:27 PM	However, the group I am in uses a different method and I use that simply because it is what everyone knows, and the method seems to work. it approximates a 28-32 point buy but with the advantage of getting to have an 18 without dumping everything you have into that 18. All ability scores start at zero, then you have 75 points to use to buy your stats. All points are used on a 1:1 basis. This makes for some very effective characters. For example, I played a gnome wizard with the following stats; 10, 14, 10, 18, 13, 10. A strong character, but not overpowering by any means...especially not with the cleric running around. <snip> Anyway, that is just the way we do it...and I have never seen a cookie-cutter character with this method...In fact, i am almost thinking of playing a Tick-like character with high physical ability scores and a low Intelligence and Wisdom...might be kinda fun. All three campaigns I play in use this method, and I haven't seen any problems with it so far. Though it does encourage multiclassing.
Frugal 04-08-06, 10:53 PM	Just to throw out another whacky system for generating stats. An old RPG I have (don't have it handy now so I don't have the name) used a point buy system (with stats starting at 0) but the number of points you got was random. Then the further mix it up, your max ability score was based on how many points you received, low points gave you a high max and high points gave you a low max. I think you could exceed the max but then every point of increase cost 2 points. What this meant was if you got a low amount of points it encouraged you to invest them into 1 or 2 ability scores since you could get the highest scores available. While if you got a high amount of points you'd be more likely to have more mediocre scores but spread around more abilities. I'll have to go dig out the rule book and see how it worked. I'm sure you could adapt something similar to D&D.
Iry 04-09-06, 05:20 AM	32 Point Buy allows for the remarkably versatile and incredibly role-playable 17, 15, 14, 11, 10, and 8. Not only are the 18'ers happy at level 4, but there are several opportunities for specialization or rounding out the character. There are notable weaknesses, viable non primary stats, and generally feel-goodness all around.
Nom 04-09-06, 07:39 AM	I think that we are agreeing. Is that the case? It has been my XP that my players hate 25 point buy because a Wizard can focus on 1 good ability while the party Paladin is thinning himself out. Thats all I was meaning about "weakining" a party with a 25PB spread system.It's this point (and only this point) I disagree with. For the same point total that the wizard uses to have 18 Int / 8 Cha / 8 Str (16 points, +2 net bonus), the Paladin can have 14 Str, 12 Wis and 14 Cha (+5 net bonus). Each has 9 points for their remaining 3 abilities (say 12/10/10 with 1 more to spend). Without considering the paladin's specials, the wizard can do two things really well (cast spells, knowledge skills), while the paladin has decent melee capabilities, decent will saves, and decent interpersonal skills. By level 2, those points in Cha turn into +2 in all saves and a few points of healing. At level 3-4, the paladin gets rewarded for spreading points around by gaining turning and and some spellcasting. Meanwhile, the wizard still can cast spells really well (Versatility? Do I get a Fort save against that? Never mind, I usually fail Fort saves anyway). Yes, a 25 point MAD typically can't do one thing really well. But a MAD class is usually a flexible class, not a one trick wonder. {Correction: most 25 point MAD classes can do one thing really well if the player is willing to sacrifice the character's inbuilt versatility} Personally I use a 32PB because it keeps the players happy and keeps them coming back.This can be achieved with 25 points and with the added bonus that you don't need to re-jig CRs. If you don't mind risking everything being a little too easy, then 28-32 works pretty well.
Witch 04-09-06, 08:25 AM	Looks like if I had to play that wizard I'd have him jump off the nearest cliff and roll a new character. Yeah, I didn't say I was going to make people do that, I merely said it would give interesting characters ^^ I remember playing a Wizard with 3 strength. Memorable character, that one.
terrainmonkey 04-09-06, 10:21 AM	try a wizard with a 5 con. 1-2 hit points per level. ughhhh i think by the time i was 10th level i had 15 hit points. 1st edition, old school. it was a miracle, really, that i made it that far. imagine the bellyaching if characters nowadays had to start with stats that low. oh my god you'd never hear the end of it. :)
from_the_shadow 04-09-06, 11:01 AM	Whilst it is possible to re-balance how hard the bad guys are, one thing that no-one seems to have discussed is feats. Alot of feats have a 13 in a stat as a pre-requesite. Playing higher point buys cheapens these abilities somewhat, as everyone qualifies for them, low point buys make them rather special and rare. After all, if your fighter is struggling to aford two 16s for str and con, is he really going to want to drop a 13 into int just to be allowed to take combat expertise. In my humble opinion, it works best when a character can have one or two good (16+) stats, two quite good stats (13-15) and two average to low stats (8-12). That way you can be good at what it is you want to focus on, have one good ability not directly related to what you normally do, and one weakness.
loaba 04-09-06, 01:54 PM	Whilst it is possible to re-balance how hard the bad guys are, one thing that no-one seems to have discussed is feats. Alot of feats have a 13 in a stat as a pre-requesite. Playing higher point buys cheapens these abilities somewhat, as everyone qualifies for them, low point buys make them rather special and rare. This is a great point, and to add to it, the 25pb actually works to make the Fighter character special as a whole; no one else in the game has access to his damage-dealing potential with martial weapons, and they simply don't have the Ability points to buy up Str and Con in an effort to equalize that way. Again, I'm not originally a proponent for the 25pb, however that seems to be changing. :D
rogar2465 04-09-06, 03:37 PM	I've rolled 4d6, if you get at least 2 ,1s, reroll the ones, keep the 3 highest, 6 times,...then repeat 2 times, keep the best. I've also considered a 38 point buy. I also give monsters max hitpoints at first hd. I'm also a little free with the magic. I figure thats what keeps PCs alive :D Rogar Foehammer; The Giant Smashin, Undead Scarin, Saver of the World :D