Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashianyl 06-20-04, 11:47 AM	I have a problem with my players abusing Astral Projection by first leaving their bodies in a secure area, then going to the astral plane and returning to the prime material, thus ensuring their full abilities can be used without worry of being killed. Aside from Dispel Magic, what other counters are there? It's rather irritating that I have to create an equal level Archmage with Spell Power just to have an equal chance at dispelling the spell. Any suggestions?
Bomba 06-20-04, 01:03 PM	the spell description for astra projections says that you can progect an astral body onto another plane not back to the same plane. other then that i would think a circle of protection vs god/evil/law/chaos would keep them out of an area in thier progected forms. a wall of dispell magic would be a nice thing to have them have to walk through to get into a castle or something like that an antimagic field would be nice also or if they are really annoying you could just have a wizard or cleric devine the location of thier bodies and kill them. the main thing is that the spell allows you to project yourself to another plane it does not say you can project a body on the same plane and i would not allow it. PS i was looking at a 3.5 description 3.0 might be different.
Ashianyl 06-20-04, 02:21 PM	Thanks for your suggestions, I will definitely try the locate body and kill tactic. Just one thing about the wording for Astral Projection (3.5 version) It says, "Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter." That was the part of the spell that allowed the players to come back to the prime material. I also thought about Antimagic Field, but it only supresses spells, but does not dispel it. How would that affect Astral Projection? Do the bodies wink out of existence like summoned creatures? I can't seem to find a good argument to support the fact that the bodies should behave like a summoned creature's since they aren't technically summoned. The spell actually creates a form for them. Also, Magic Circle against Evil/Good/Law/Chaos only stop summoned creatures, and they are not summoned. Thanks again for the locate suggestion. Can't wait to pull that one off on the players... hehehe.
primemover003 06-20-04, 07:53 PM	If you return to the Plane you left from you return to your Body... you do not make a new body on the same plane as you body. Stop this munchkinism post haste! Note the Bolded text! From the SRD: Astral Projection Necromancy Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 30 minutes Range: Touch Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels Duration: See text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether. You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them. You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter. While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes. You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you). Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.
kliate 06-20-04, 10:36 PM	If the PC's have been troubling anyone specific, they might try contracting the Githyanki to hunt down and deal with the PC's silver cords. Or it could be pure coincidence that the Githyanki are cutting up more of them.
Ashianyl 06-20-04, 11:57 PM	Thanks primemover003 for pointing that out. Will ban the abuse of Astral Projection. As for hiring the Githyanki, kliate, that sounds like a good unsuspecting way to stop the abuse too once the adventure moves to 'other planes'... hehehe. Thanks. ^_^
Edymnion 06-21-04, 12:04 AM	The semantics don't work here. When it says "other" planes it is referring to planes other than the Astral, not the Prime. You project FROM your plane ONTO the Astral. All the semantics are just really grasping for straws, they do NOT actually say you can't do it. Personally, however, I just houserule that shifting back to the Prime ends the spell, and you wake up in your own body. That alone is typically enough to stop all the major forms of abuse. But yes, Astral Projection is the single most broken spell, as written, in the entire book. Just nobody threw a temper tantrum over it like they did for Haste, so WotC didn't bother nerfing it for 3.5.
was_fired 06-21-04, 12:14 AM	Loads of way to mess with people who are using it. 1. It only works when your on the material and going to other planes. 2. You are trapped if someone gets you in an anti-magic field just like an incorporal or summoned creature. 3. Your cord can be cut killing you instantly ignoring HP and saves. 4. A wizard could use a wish to move himself to their bodies if they noticed these were astral projections (true seeing). And kill at least one of you, such as the wizard casting the spell which would trap the others allowing the entire party to killed. Killing them wouldn't be very hard. Just CdG with disintegrate or a pick.
Naeron 06-21-04, 12:58 PM	Firstly the interpretation that you can "project an astral body onto another plane altogether" means that you cannot duplicate your body on the material plane is not invalid. The description of the spell can be read that way and remains correct. The especially makes the sentence about forming a second body on a different plane make sense. You only form a second body when you leave the astral plane and this sentence specifies a different plane, as it has to be non-astral it must therefore mean a different plane to the one you started from. But as a counter to the tactic dispelling the astral form of the caster leaves the rest of the party in touble i.e. "If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them." So unless they have means to escape independently they will be left facing the enemy without a spellcaster.
Edymnion 06-21-04, 01:41 PM	Originally posted by Naeron Firstly the interpretation that you can "project an astral body onto another plane altogether" means that you cannot duplicate your body on the material plane is not invalid. That particular bit is invalid. You do no project back onto the material plain, you can only project into the Astral plane. If you read it, it says "By freeing your spirit from your body, you can project your astral body to another plane". That is only referring to the fact that after your spirit seperates from your body, it is still on the Prime. You then project it to the Astral plane. Thats all it says. Originally posted by was_fired 3. Your cord can be cut killing you instantly ignoring HP and saves. Yeah, but there are only two things that I know of that can actually cut your chord, an Astral Dreadnaught or a Githzeri sword. To anything else, your chord is completely indestructible. Even if you rule that other things could cut it, all it takes is one contingency spell to completely bypass it. Contigency "Whenever anything capable of cutting my astral chord comes within 500 feet of it, contingency an Alarm spell to activate." There, you now know whenever your chord is in danger, and you can voluntarily end the projection before there is any threat to your life. 4. A wizard could use a wish to move himself to their bodies if they noticed these were astral projections (true seeing). And kill at least one of you, such as the wizard casting the spell which would trap the others allowing the entire party to killed. Killing them wouldn't be very hard. Just CdG with disintegrate or a pick.Well, if you're going to do large scale abuse of this spell, you would of course set up every anti-divination spell you can think of to protect your body. Even then, killing the wizard would just cause the spell to end, and the rest of the party would immediantly be returned to their body, they wouldn't be trapped. And seeing as you have to be wearing your stuff when you project with it, and that wizard just got the entire armed party waking up next to them. Of course, that can be countered by killing them all at once with an area effect spell. Yes, you can (and should!) houserule Astral Projection ASAP. Its just that by the actual wording of the spell as written (which no erratta has ever come out for), it is nearly infinitely abusable. Double, triple, even quadruple all of your party's gear, provided you have enough casters that can cast AP. Unkillable party. Abuse is ripe for the smart player to exploit.
Mythmere 06-21-04, 02:51 PM	The spell does not suggest that the astral traveler can bring anything back with him from the astral or from another plane. I see it as a way of attacking something or communicating with something, but of foregoing any treasure that you would have gotten if you traveled with a gate spell. I think it's clear that the spell can't be used to double back into the material plane. Note that the gate spell explicitly cannot be used to travel in the material plane. A divination spell could be used to trace a silver cord back to its origin, possibly even after the astral adventure. This could cause problems with reprisals.
Edymnion 06-21-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by Mythmere I think it's clear that the spell can't be used to double back into the material plane. Note that the gate spell explicitly cannot be used to travel in the material plane. Plane Shift. Can be used on yourself and others, immediantly shifts you to the plane of your choice, you don't need a 9th level Gate spell. But what you would do would be to Project, Shift back to the Prime, and adventure. Whenever you got something really good, you would Teleport back to your body, dump off the loot, end projection. Equip yourself with the new goodies, then re-project and keep going. Best part of the abuse is that it creates a copy of your stuff, it does not take the originals. So if you've got a Ring of Three Wishes, Project with it. You now have a copy of the ring, and you can use the three wishes as you see fit, end projection, and you still have a perfectly intact Ring of Three Wishes left on your finger. Just project again, and you got another three free wishes. :D
Mythmere 06-21-04, 04:07 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Plane Shift. Can be used on yourself and others, immediantly shifts you to the plane of your choice, you don't need a 9th level Gate spell. But what you would do would be to Project, Shift back to the Prime, and adventure. Whenever you got something really good, you would Teleport back to your body, dump off the loot, end projection. Equip yourself with the new goodies, then re-project and keep going. Best part of the abuse is that it creates a copy of your stuff, it does not take the originals. So if you've got a Ring of Three Wishes, Project with it. You now have a copy of the ring, and you can use the three wishes as you see fit, end projection, and you still have a perfectly intact Ring of Three Wishes left on your finger. Just project again, and you got another three free wishes. :D Well, I don't think you can plane shift a projection. Or if you shifted it to the Prime Material, I think you'd end up back in your body on the Prime Material. This is basically the assumption that whenever a projection returns under any circumstance, the spell is over. I see the abuse of the ring of three wishes, though. The revive dead ability implies that the spell can cross planar boundaries, so the projection could presumably make a wish that would affect the primary body back in the material plane (increasing a stat, or something). The problem would seem to exist with any item having limited charges: otherwise, there is no obvious imbalance. It's a stretch, but depending upon the DM's theory of the spell, one could argue that the power of the duplicate equipment used by an astral projection is drawn from the pwer of the item at its original location. "The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane." Is this a durable copy of what you started with, or is it a running total of what you have on your primary body? Example: a thief detatches your +1 staff from your physical body and runs off with it. Does the +1 staff disappear from the possession of the astral copy? Certainly if your primary body dies, you don't still have a copy on another plane. The death of the physical body ends the existence of the copy. This implies, though it isn't clearly stated, that the copy is constantly dependent upon the status of the physical reality of the things copied. If this is the case, it makes a lot of sense to say that the copy's power is derived from the original. Thus, a magic item powered by charges would draw a charge from the original item even though the activation happened on another plane, via a copy of the original item. However, this would raise the question of why the astral copy can lose hit points. If the original body is unharmed, why can the copy take damage? This implies that the physical copy is somewhat durable and has its own existence. Why, then, would the copied item still draw a charge from the original? If the copy has its own hit points independent of the original body, why wouldn't a magic item have charges independent of the original item's charges? I think it still makes sense to say that the spell does not create "new" and durable charges for a magic item. The duplicated item still draws on the charge of the original. As a copy, it is a duplicated trigger for the magically stored energy; the item is duplicated, but not the base potential of the source power. This is still consistent with the fact that spells aren't lost when the copy casts them; spells aren't built-up energy, they are formulae to create them. XP loss would be like magical charges, though, since the copy has no inherent experience; it draws on the experience of the original for the purpose of magical effects. The copy could theoretically draw on xp it gained in the other plane to create an item even under this theory. But xp is such a DM dependent concept that it's easy to say that xp is just an expression of the original character's holistic experience: you gain it based on your copy's activities, you lose it based on your character's activities. So, I think depending on your theory of magic charges, you could prevent misuse of charged items.
was_fired 06-21-04, 04:47 PM	Wish isn't a divination so it is technically a valid use. Remember this entire thread is about how to abuse spells so I pointed out that an abuse of wish counters an abuse of astral projection. Also that contingincy would mean that all anyone would need to do to protect them from mindblank is hire a single gith to guard them (or just take their sword). A wishing wizard could also always wish that the cord be broken (will save so it likely would fail). Other fun options include Trap the Soul (will save at a -2) do this to the wizard and you trap his friends there and can feel free to kill them. Temporal Stasis does this even bettre than trap the soul since it is a fort save. Time doesn't pass for the wizard so he can't end the spell. Then just wish yourself to his body and finish off his friends.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-04, 07:30 PM	Stone to Flesh. They aren't dead so they don't wake up back in their real body, but they're paralyzed and unable to end the spell. You've trapped them indefinately. My PC's used this trick on a semi-archfiend from Carceri who had used this same trick to create an astrally projected body, dive through a color pool to make a duplicate body, then planeshift to a demiplane she was occupying. They ended up removing her from the metaplot for around 6 months of game time. It was a trick I hadn't considered, but they thought of it and used it. I let it work as a reward for their ingenuity. (though she ended up killing one PC, and nearly killing 4 others in the process. They were in over their heads) And remember, Astral Projection will draw Astral Dreadnoughts like flies to honey. Raising the ire of those things is NOT a good idea. And as well, the Githyanki are always the classic thing to toss against astral projecting PCs. ;)
Ashianyl 06-21-04, 09:16 PM	Stone to Flesh. I believe the spell is Flesh to Stone? Anyway, that's a brilliant use of the spell. ^_^ Having both anstral and physical bodies locked in suspended animation for eternity sounds like fun. A feeblemind would also be nice, if only Mindblank wasn't such a high priority defense spell for everyone. The death of the physical body ends the existence of the copy. This implies, though it isn't clearly stated, that the copy is constantly dependent upon the status of the physical reality of the things copied. If this is the case, it makes a lot of sense to say that the copy's power is derived from the original. Mythmere, your theory on the spell is interesting. It raises one question for me, though. How does negative energy levels affect the Astral Projection? Does it transfer to the physical body as well?
Surgo 06-21-04, 09:20 PM	Edymnion, I'm curious on just how this spell is broken, if the DM rules that returning to the plane you projected off of in the first place ends the spell, and you can't take anything back with you.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-04, 09:47 PM	Originally posted by Ashianyl I believe the spell is Flesh to Stone? Anyway, that's a brilliant use of the spell. ^_^ Having both anstral and physical bodies locked in suspended animation for eternity sounds like fun. A feeblemind would also be nice, if only Mindblank wasn't such a high priority defense spell for everyone. Ah, indeed. I meant Flesh to Stone. ;) My players have seemingly gone out of their way lately to use that spell on fiends and then steal the bodies. They've been using a few of them as rock garden type statues. Politics is the only thing keeping them safe from retribution on this all, but it's mostly them messing with me as a DM. *chuckle* Eventually some poor sod is going to play a prank on them and cast 'stone to flesh' on one of their 'statues' hoping to make a normal statue a pile of gooey wierdness. The surprise on their face when it reverts to its normal form after a few years incognito as a lawn ornament will be amusing. :D Their current count is: 3 Arcanaloths, 1 vrock, 1 nycaloth, 1 imp and a quasit. The resident arcanaloths of Sigil have had no comment on this.
Mythmere 06-21-04, 10:20 PM	Originally posted by Ashianyl I believe the spell is Flesh to Stone? Anyway, that's a brilliant use of the spell. ^_^ Having both anstral and physical bodies locked in suspended animation for eternity sounds like fun. A feeblemind would also be nice, if only Mindblank wasn't such a high priority defense spell for everyone. Mythmere, your theory on the spell is interesting. It raises one question for me, though. How does negative energy levels affect the Astral Projection? Does it transfer to the physical body as well? Ooo. Good one. And I'm not on my strong ground, here, rules-wise. First off, the bit about experience points was kind of an afterthought: the stuff I really tried to think about was the effect of charged items. XP was another way of misusing the spell. As I said, negative levels and such aren't my strong point, and I'm no rules expert. But here's my thinking. Negative levels used to be called "lost" levels. The terminology was changed, I think, specifically to indicate that experience points weren't gone, just offset by "negative" levels. So I would say that negative levels aren't part of the "holistic," out of game concept that experience points are. I'd say that negative levels wouldn't translate to the physical body from the copy. I'd say they would immediately transfer to the copy from the physical body if incurred on the material plane. The fact that negative levels have to do with experience points wouldn't necessarily mean that they are the same as xp loss from creating magic items (which can't be "restored," either). Thus, I think it's still consistent to pull xp cost of a magic item created by the copy from the original body, but not to apply negative levels incurred by the copy against the original.
primemover003 06-21-04, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Eventually some poor sod is going to play a prank on them and cast 'stone to flesh' on one of their 'statues' hoping to make a normal statue a pile of gooey wierdness. The surprise on their face when it reverts to its normal form after a few years incognito as a lawn ornament will be amusing. :D Or just a random Area dispel... from yet another group of adventurers engaged in a street battle... As they always seem to be doing in the Cage:)
kliate 06-21-04, 11:14 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Yeah, but there are only two things that I know of that can actually cut your chord, an Astral Dreadnaught or a Githzeri sword. To anything else, your chord is completely indestructible. You've got the wrong Gith - it's the Githyanki who use those awesome silver swords.
Ashianyl 06-22-04, 03:43 AM	originally posted by Mythmere XP was another way of misusing the spell. As I said, negative levels and such aren't my strong point, and I'm no rules expert. But here's my thinking. Negative levels used to be called "lost" levels. The terminology was changed, I think, specifically to indicate that experience points weren't gone, just offset by "negative" levels. So I would say that negative levels aren't part of the "holistic," out of game concept that experience points are. I'd say that negative levels wouldn't translate to the physical body from the copy. I'd say they would immediately transfer to the copy from the physical body if incurred on the material plane. The fact that negative levels have to do with experience points wouldn't necessarily mean that they are the same as xp loss from creating magic items (which can't be "restored," either). Thus, I think it's still consistent to pull xp cost of a magic item created by the copy from the original body, but not to apply negative levels incurred by the copy against the original. If negative energy levels don't affect the original body, a spell caster would effectively still have spell slots from their original level since the mind is the one storing the spells. Astral Projection is beginning to sound like a totally broken spell... but then again, if the energy levels did transfer, the original body would die along with the Astral body and that would really screw the player. Shemeska, your game sounds like full scale riot fun! I do hope you give them lots and lots of opportunities to decorate their garden with dangerous creatures... The more the merrier, I would say, before that 'accidental' dispel hits like primemover003 suggested. I would suggest using Monderkainen's Disjunction though, cos it doesn't just stop after dispelling one effect like an area Dispel... hehe. I just hope you don't make the PCs pay for the destruction caused to the streets of Sigil by their 'statues'. *hint hint* ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-22-04, 08:02 AM	Originally posted by Ashianyl Shemeska, your game sounds like full scale riot fun! I do hope you give them lots and lots of opportunities to decorate their garden with dangerous creatures... The more the merrier, I would say, before that 'accidental' dispel hits like primemover003 suggested. I would suggest using Monderkainen's Disjunction though, cos it doesn't just stop after dispelling one effect like an area Dispel... hehe. I just hope you don't make the PCs pay for the destruction caused to the streets of Sigil by their 'statues'. *hint hint* ;) Oh, they've got plenty more to worry about at the moment than any of those statues getting reverted back to normal. Nothing says complicated situation like a former factol returning to Sigil w/ a great wyrm rust dragon fanatic at her side w/ the intention of retaking one of the splinter sects of her former faction. [Alisohn Nilesia seeking to retake the Sodkillers, however a few hundred people also saw the same ex-factol apprently flayed by The Lady of Pain a year prior, though it wasn't her flayed but a clone of her created by a Yugoloth cabal on the moon/city of Nimicri in Gehenna. That's the situation in a nutshell.] And of course this all started on property owned by the PCs on the former grounds of the Rowan academy/Hall of Records. But on topic here, I'm not certain how I'd treat magic items/charged items used by the physical body created by an Astrally projecting caster after they dove through a color pool to another plane. When I had Shylara the Manged, self titled Mistress of Carceri and Lord of the Tower of Incarnate Pain, concubine to the Oinoloth, pull this trick I wasn't worried about item charged and she didn't even have any equipment to speak of. She was potent enough as a spellcaster to not even bother with wearing any equipment (or given her personality and style, she didn't much worry about wearing much in general, except a blanket of illusions to hide the curse that gave her a particularly nasty case of permenant sarcoptic mange. And on an Arcanaloth, that's never a good thing.)
Ertai Planeswalker 06-22-04, 08:29 AM	I think they should just remove the expensive material componenent, and make it work so that when you leave the astral you form a new body including all your equipment and the spell ends there and then.
MrkGrismer 06-22-04, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by primemover003 Or just a random Area dispel... from yet another group of adventurers engaged in a street battle... As they always seem to be doing in the Cage:) Flesh to Stone is instantaneous, not permanent. Dispel does not work.
Mythmere 06-22-04, 10:41 AM	Originally posted by Ashianyl If negative energy levels don't affect the original body, a spell caster would effectively still have spell slots from their original level since the mind is the one storing the spells. I don't think so, but again, it hinges on "theory of magic," which is a pain in the butt concept, but sometimes required as an explanation to players. I'd say that a memorized spell isn't the same as the charge in a magic item. A memorized spell is a formula, not actual magic power. Otherwise, detect magic would detect spellcaster heads all the time.
Ashianyl 06-22-04, 11:51 AM	originally posted by Mythmere I don't think so, but again, it hinges on "theory of magic," which is a pain in the butt concept, but sometimes required as an explanation to players. I'd say that a memorized spell isn't the same as the charge in a magic item. A memorized spell is a formula, not actual magic power. Otherwise, detect magic would detect spellcaster heads all the time. Ok... sigh... I just wish the SRD would give us a totally revised version of the spell that would address all these things. The problem with your theory is that it still makes Astral Projection a broken spell in that players are so obviously oblivious to mortal dangers. AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH. I think I'm going to cast a Wish spell now to Wish that Astral Proj* *Dungeon Master wishes herself into oblivion where Astral Projection spells do not exist*
beshabas 06-23-04, 07:47 AM	Originally posted by Mythmere I don't think so, but again, it hinges on "theory of magic," which is a pain in the butt concept, but sometimes required as an explanation to players. I'd say that a memorized spell isn't the same as the charge in a magic item. A memorized spell is a formula, not actual magic power. Otherwise, detect magic would detect spellcaster heads all the time. Yes I agree, my players also have tendencies to break spells and such. I think, at the end of the day, there are choices that we as DM will have to make and ENFORCE: 1) Acknowledge to the players that the spell is broken (they deserve to know and understand) 2) Come out with a solution to solve this, e.g. balance the spell 3) Move on with the game already, that was the original purpose of RPG anyway That's what I alway do as not evey game is made perfect! ________________________________________ ______ - "Are we there yet?" - response to slow PCs - "Move on with the game already!" - response to GM thumbing thru the DMG :cool: