Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Utumno 03-02-04, 11:19 AM	I have a party of 5th level PCs right now. Most of them have 1 +1 weapon. The wealth progression chart is kind of strict, it is telling me that handing out a +2 weapon right now would upset my campaign. There are other things to consider as well. My wizard PC has a wand of levitate that counts as 4000 some gp, esentially all it does though is make him lift off the ground. Just wanted to hear how everyone else deals with their magic items.
Naeron 03-02-04, 11:30 AM	I generally start handing out items above +1 (which I start handing around 3rd) 2 levels after the characters could build them themselves with the creation feats - thus giving the Players a warm and fuzzy feeling about taking the feat. So +2 weapons start appearing around level 8.
hivemind[MVGC] 03-02-04, 12:11 PM	I roll random treasure the whole time. If something really good comes up, then so be it. But usually, the PCs end up with a most people having appropriate stuff, someone getting screwed (guy took feats for Bastard Sword and the party's only ever found a +1 bastard Sword at 15th level), and one guy who decides that some oddball exotic weapon that the party found is so good he's gonna take feats for it (+4 shocking burst brilliant energy Kukri anyone?). I find it's more fun this way. My players typically don't have any downtime to craft either, and I keep 'em out of cities.
fistanthius 03-02-04, 01:31 PM	My PC's are at 7th level and have only +1 weapons. But a couple of them have minor abilities as well. I usually roll randomly, but since its a small short term campaign, i designed weapons and gave them out. They had to fight the people who had them first, of course :)
Korgan26 03-02-04, 02:17 PM	Someone is handing out +2 weapons!? THE LINE STARTS BEHIND ME!! :D Z
beavis123 03-02-04, 02:43 PM	I once gave a fighter a +1 longsword. I had a bard NPC see it, and regale a story at an inn, that it was the Rengard's blade. He had a whole story surrounding it. The player held on to it, for a long time and many levels. It was just a +1 longsword, but he liked it. God, I sound as boring as Gygax!!!!!!!!!
Lord Deadite 03-02-04, 02:44 PM	I use the same rules as are mentioned in the DMG for creation such items. The enhancement is multiplied by three. If they are able to create it, it must be time for them to find and wield it. which is the logic that I use.
Uberman 03-02-04, 03:19 PM	Originally posted by beavis123 God, I sound as boring as Gygax!!!!!!!!! THOUGH SHALT NOT DISPARAGE THE HOLY NAME OF GYGAX! DIE BLASPHEMOUS INFIDEL!! On a more serious note... I usually figure out how much treasure to hand them per encounter based on the Xp gained towards next lvl. I'm usually able to keep it so my PCs have resources roughly equal to what they'd have using the "PC wealth by lvl" chart in the DMG. They usually sell half of what I give them (I tend to include lots of gems and jewelry and such), and like to create/upgrade their items. Heck, I had one guy(Ranger) go from lvl 1 to lvl 15 with the same Shortsword he started with (He would've kept BOTH his starting S.Swords except for the fact that one got destroyed around lvl 7), upgrading it all the time. When his character finally died at lvl 15, he bequeathed his now-sunsword with all the memories to the party wizard, who'd been his best friend. 1 lvl later, just short of gaining 9th lvl spells, that wizard died, and was avenged by the paladin who picked up the ranger's family sword and triple-crited the demonic minotaur barbarian who slew the wizard. BTW, in my campaigns it's hard to come back from the dead.
Bacon and Eggs 03-02-04, 04:01 PM	Somewhere between 3 and 16. I don't know, I'm funny like that. I go on gut feeling alone when it comes to things like this. As a DM that is. If I were a player. I would want them from between levels 6-18. (I'm not an item dependant player though.)
Krelios 03-02-04, 04:05 PM	My players typically don't have any downtime to craft either, and I keep 'em out of cities. That's boring... If you are going to roll randomly, you should allow them time and resources to make their own... That's the point of providing rules for that in the Core books anyway. Oh well, I don't have to be one of your players, and you don't have to like the way I do things. That's the beauty of roleplaying games.
Dungeon_Master 03-02-04, 04:11 PM	My PCs are level 5 now. Most of them don't have even +1 weapons. Yes, I do run a Forgotten Realms game, which is a high magic setting. But htey MIGHT have enough to buy these weapons if they didn't screw their cash on ale and wenches. :rolleyes: I've got a guy VERY into the craft skill. He won't except "no, you can't make that" for an answer. "Ok, I wwant to combine Heartwire and Mithril into this sword.... By the way, I designed the sword itself. It's a new sword type! Uh, I don't know how much I need. Can you calculate this for me?" Latest invention? A hand-held ballista. I dread the thought of what will come next (and the screaming match that comes with it).
Krelios 03-02-04, 04:13 PM	I've got a guy VERY into the craft skill. He won't except "no, you can't make that" for an answer. "Ok, I wwant to combine Heartwire and Mithril into this sword.... By the way, I designed the sword itself. It's a new sword type! Uh, I don't know how much I need. Can you calculate this for me?" Sure, since you are researching a new sword type with no background in such a skill, it does 1d4 damage due to its poor balance and weight distribution and costs you 100,000 gp to make from those exotic components. If that doesn't work then tell him he can't make up things outside of the rules for a reason. There are rules that he can stay within for crafting.
Sucineri 03-02-04, 04:31 PM	Sure, since you are researching a new sword type with no background in such a skill, it does 1d4 damage due to its poor balance and weight distribution and costs you 100,000 gp to make from those exotic components. I probably would say the sword breaks..then he has to keep trying..meaning he is working out all the bugs..then eventually make the damage be like 1 die class over the normal weapon and possibly a special thingie about it based on the materials used..but he has to roll WAY high for it to be completely right. I would think that a craftheavy character would have full ranks in the craft, and prolly high strength or whatever att is needed..so umm..13 ranks by level 10, 20 str (unless a +2 str race)..so 18 on craft..can roll upto 38..so I say to make the roll have a DC of 40 for full effect :)
Arrowhen 03-02-04, 04:39 PM	Latest invention? A hand-held ballista. So he invented the crossbow?
The Concrete Dragon 03-02-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by Arrowhen Latest invention? A hand-held ballista. So he invented the crossbow? Seems that he did eh. :rofl:
Uberman 03-02-04, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by Sucineri I would think that a craftheavy character would have full ranks in the craft, and prolly high strength or whatever att is needed..so umm..13 ranks by level 10, 20 str (unless a +2 str race)..so 18 on craft..can roll upto 38..so I say to make the roll have a DC of 40 for full effect :) Craft is INT based, both in 3.0 and 3.5
Sorel 03-02-04, 06:09 PM	IMHO, you should only make magic weapons available if the players need them for something you have cooked up for them to face later. I haven't upgraded to 3.5, so my understading of the new DR system is non-existent. (I know that there is one....) A +1 weapon is still magical and properly managed can be very much appreciated by the player. This is especially true if magic weapons are rare in the hands of their enemies. You don't want to have their current weapons lose their intrinsic value. Let's put it this way.... does King Arthur think Excalibur needs a higher damage bonus? (Say, if it were a +2 blade....) The weapon should suit the needs of the game, it should almost be like a cohort.
Sucineri 03-02-04, 06:16 PM	The weapon should suit the needs of the game, it should almost be like a cohort. I was thinking the same thing..if you made up a campaign..or are using one that was already made by someone else and there is nothing to kill that has the #/+2 DR anytime soon then why even think about making one of the weapons available? Maybe throw one or two out there an adventure ahead of hitting the +2 DR monsters?
Loopy 03-02-04, 06:17 PM	By 5th level, one person will have a +2 weapon.... everyone else will likely have one by 8th. The problem is, the treasure you roll will not always coincide with the weapons the players have chosen to wield. Their fault, really. Seems like the regular ol' longsword is taboo these days.
Dungeon_Master 03-02-04, 06:31 PM	Originally posted by Arrowhen Latest invention? A hand-held ballista. So he invented the crossbow? Eh, no. He literally tried to make a balista he could mount on his arm. In a sense, he just made a crossbow, yes. but he was using smokepowder (gunpowder to you non FR folks) to launch the bolts. :rolleyes: He's lucky for the Regeneration spell. Ah well, I'm derailing here. Point is, I hate the Craft skills. :mad:
ATouchOfMadness 03-02-04, 06:58 PM	I think a lot of these questions are dependent on your group, and the characters they're playing. If they find something good do they use it responsibly? Are they ever made aware of exactly what it is? I find it best to plan the distribution of magic items ahead of time. That way they might get something interesting or powerful but they could use it up, or just plain loose it. Just because you give it to them doesn't mean the get to keep it. As for when to give them magic weapons and how powerful they should be? I give it to them when its dramatically appropriate to the story. Also the more powerful stuff they find and I let them keep, the more powerful baddies they face. If they rely to heavily on a magic item, put them up against a BBEG who's just slightly more powerful. Give them a beating they wont forget and make sure they realize that it's not magic items that pull them through in a pinch, it's themselves. Let your 3rd level warrior swing around an ancestral +3 Long sword. Just have his evil twin come in and have it break during a fight. For instance in a session I just ran this past Sunday night my party pf 5 3rd level PC's (3 Rouges, 1 Cleric, 1 Fighter/Sorcerer) walked away with: 12 Scrolls 6 Potions Staff of Frost Staff of the Woodlands Arrow of Slaying (Undead) Wand of Shatter A Keen Elven Longsword A Ring of Improved Jumping At the end of the session they only had 1 Potion (Elixir of Love) Arrow (To be used next adventre to slay undead NPC) Ring of Improved Jumping (About to be sold) the other items were sold for way, way, WAY below cost Staff of the Woodlands was taken in trade for mending of a broken arm. Staff of Frost was lost in a card game (naturally they were cheated) The best part is, it turned out to be a really enjoyable session. The items caused a lot of great RP, and exciting encounters. In short, don't be afraid to give away powerful magic, just do so with a little planning. The GM Giveth And He Taketh Away
Tehril 03-02-04, 08:48 PM	Look at the CR of the creatures you want them to face. At least 25%-50% of the party should be able to physically harm any creature you decide to throw at them... Not including the ones they wander into on their own or that they were never meant to actually fight!!! Ie, a stupid 1st level party wanders into the crypts of doom while you were still planning on them facing the local pick pockets. :rolleyes: But if you see a minor demon with +2, Holy Silver as it's DR... and it's CR is equivalent to the party... then the party probably should have access to at least one +2, Holy Silver weapon (and alot of magic!!!). So weapons are really decided on by what creatures the DM wants the party to face. If you never, ever, ever face a creature with any DR... magic weapons are nice but not even required. However, another good guidline is that any one item should not surpase 25-50% of a characters total wealth. Thus, depending on what you choose, the level where a +2 is appropriate is anywhere from level 7 to level 9. By 11-12th level, you should have a +3 for sure. The earliest a +5 'could' be handed out (high powered campaign!) is 13th...whereas the normal +5 would be handed out around 15th-16th level. 25% of total wealth = normal/low powered 50% of total wealth (max) = high powered :D
Roxlimn 03-02-04, 10:55 PM	While I tend to pay attention to the DMG suggestions regarding the distribution of magic items and gold in general throughout the levels, the incomplete nature of these suggestions means that I also input a lot from my own estimates of what the party is going to deal with and how they can use what's on the table in the future. For example, if there's no serious melee combat in store for the characters for about 2 to 3 levels, then giving the 5th level fighter a +2 equivalent weapon now probably wouldn't be such a bad idea - it engenders his sense of character and gives people the impression that things in the game happen randomly - almost like it were real life. Similarly, a Staff of Fire in the hands of a 4th level wizard is probably a very powerful artifact, except if the player is a miserly hoarder who never uses it for fear of exhausting its supply. In that case, it's really little better than a few powerful scrolls and helps me along by providing the players with a powerful tool in case I badly misjudge the CR on the more powerful side. Again, giving players exactly what they need or their levels warrant all the time isn't particularly realistic IMO, though it doesn't hurt if you do it every so often. Sometimes, disaster strikes and items get destroyed. Magic gets sucked, trades routes shut down and businesses ruined - for no real reason players can determine. After all, if they could see it, they wouldn't be affected adversely by it, would they? In this case, I either tone down the CR's a wee bit (not too much - item loss has to hurt for it to be logical) just so that the PCs won't die even if they're careful. Unlike in d20modern or other d20 settings, in D&D, magic items can be as much a part of a PC as his race and gender. Drizzt doesn't really work without Twinkle and Gwenwyvar. Well, he sort of does, but not really, if you get what I mean. Arthur isn't Arthur without Excalibur, after all, and many fantasy heroes have iconic equipment. For this reason, tailoring items to your PCs is a very personal and personalized thing, something you can't just read off of a table in the DMG.
angry_keebler 03-02-04, 11:48 PM	Level 2 or earlier.
Pongolyn 03-02-04, 11:48 PM	Wow. You guys are all sorts of nice. My players are 12th level and +2 weapons still haven't become standard issue. The PCs could manufacture them if they wanted to, but being a magic-heavy party they're more concerned with other items. IIRC two of them have +1 weapons with a +1-equivalent ability, though, so that's pretty much the same thing. I use the NPC tables in the DMG as a guideline for placing items. I try to randomize them as much as possible, but occasionally I'll cheat if I come up with a major wondrous item for an EL 5 encounter... I would advise against awarding a +2 weapon at a low level, though. If the player thinks for one moment that it isn't living up to its usefulness, he'll sell it and suddenly you've got a level 5 player with too much cash on his hands, and if you're not careful you'll find him spending it on items you never intended him to have...
Escef 03-03-04, 07:14 AM	In my experience, PCs are more concerned with multiple energy effects than they are with bigger pluses. Yeah a +2 sword has +1 to hit and damage over a +1 sword, but a +1 flaming sword gets -1 to hit and maybe an extra 1-5 points of damage over the +2. My group just prefers more damage, probably because fighter types don't miss often at higher levels.
Polymorph 03-04-04, 12:23 AM	You should not forget that the "wealth/level" chapter, as well as the random loot tablets are merely guidelines on how treasure can be spread all arround. i prefer a more down to earth variant. I mean why should an adventurer be richer than the Duke? And why wouldnt everyone become adventurer then? My PCs should be concerned about having enough money to rest at an inn and get something good to eat every night. Fighting wild animals and monsters living in the outdoors, why should they earn a wealth of money? And even when venturing into old tombs, they can not expect tremendous ammounts of gold to be there, because that tomb has likely been robbed quite often during the centuries. I think that less is more in this aspect. on the other hand i could just be a mean DM too :D "Ok, I wwant to combine Heartwire and Mithril into this sword.... By the way, I designed the sword itself. It's a new sword type! Wow! You should definitly welcome his efforts! It shows that your player is putting alot of thought into his char. However you should check the following... 1) Try to judge if the player is serious. If he wants to create a custom blade for his char or for sale, welcome it. If he trying to build a flamethrower, fry him ;) . 2) Make sure the stats of the new weapon are not better than any the ones of a compareable normal weapon. For example an Axeblade (an abviously selfmade weapon) could inflict 2d8 points of damage per hit, if it counts as a large exotic weapon, because then, it can be compared with a mercurial greatsword. It doesnt have to have the same stats as an existing weapon though. For example it could have lower damage, but higher critical multiplier than a usual mercurial greatsword. 3) Set a cost that is appropriate. For the example above, make the cost to create an axeblade at least the same of the cost to create a mercurial greatsword. The initial creation cost (the invention) should cost about 5 times as much as the weapon itself. At least that's how i would do it! :tiphat:
BlackWand 03-04-04, 03:24 AM	To much magic items can make it hard for the DM, me at least. Since Mr X stole all their stuff, i have started being careful what magic items they find. They are level 34 and their best stuff is +3 weapon, plus some other misc enchantment on them. Tho sometimes it happens they come by a +7 sword, tho its made of ice, and melt in normal heat =)
bitnine 03-04-04, 05:23 AM	Hm. One thing to consider is that wealth bound into a weapon like a +2 sword is somewhat locked - it's the type of treasure that generally can only be liquidated at half value, so 4,000 gp is all they'd get from a sale. And beyond that, it's not mechanically problematic; though the extra enhancement bonus over their +1 gear is certainly nothing to sneer at. If you rolled up a +2 sword randomly for my 5th level party, you might consider preserving the value of the high roll (in this case, 8000 gp, which is hefty considering the 1600 average), but changing the form of said treasure award if it would better fit. A +2 sword might instead by an impressive armory filled with masterwork weapons as well as three +1 weapons. This also might help with the problem of having a singular large item count for so much of the treasure. In the above case, finding that armory would still be a jackpot and provide the rolled wealth, but it might fit into the flow of things a little better.
Zyfax 03-04-04, 09:21 AM	an old DM of mine gave me a +3 defending oozebane rapier at level 8, all rolled randomly...... I just couldn't find any oozes
Naeron 03-04-04, 09:50 AM	Originally posted by Polymorph You should not forget that the "wealth/level" chapter, as well as the random loot tablets are merely guidelines on how treasure can be spread all arround. i prefer a more down to earth variant. I mean why should an adventurer be richer than the Duke? And why wouldnt everyone become adventurer then? But almost no adventurers are richer than a Duke who is still in power. If both converted all their possessions into gold and piled it up the adventurer would probably have a tiny fraction of the Dukes wealth. A Duke will own castles and vast tracts of land, they will gain regular income from taxes etc. And Adventurers wealth (until they build a stronghold) is concentrated in their possessions but is not that huge compared to what other people actually own. Even a Baron with a fortified keep in charge of a small town is likely to have the equivalent wealth of most med-high level character's with the book wealth amounts when you add in the property they own and the taxes they collect. The reason that people don't want to become adventurers is the risks involved. There are many ways of earning a respectable living that don't involve risking your life and that actually give a better quality of life than an adventurer (no sleeping in ditches, no being woken in the middle of the night by a dozen Vampire Spawn etc). Originally posted by Polymorph My PCs should be concerned about having enough money to rest at an inn and get something good to eat every night. Fighting wild animals and monsters living in the outdoors, why should they earn a wealth of money? And even when venturing into old tombs, they can not expect tremendous ammounts of gold to be there, because that tomb has likely been robbed quite often during the centuries. Why shouldn't they expect enough money to eventually be able to retire and settle down. Thats one reasonable motivation for an adventurer, adventuring may not be a safe way of becoming wealthy but it certainly should be one of the ways of getting rich quick. And the reason that the party might expect that an ancient tomb might have huge amount of gold is that a) people do get buried with their wealth. b) Sometimes the party will be the first to discover a tomb (after all people are still recovering gold from tombs in the real world) and c) Tombs can be so well defended that previous discoverers never got their hands on any of the riches hidden inside. Originally posted by Polymorph I think that less is more in this aspect. on the other hand i could just be a mean DM too :D :) Yes you are a mean DM :)