Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye19 10-13-04, 03:45 AM	Well,some player of mine had his charecter dead and buried(by the other PCs- a long story with the spell "Wages of Sin" by the end of it...). Last time he played (a monk),I added him to the party 1 level lower than the others... Now,one of them is Wizard16/fighter2,the other is Rogue17,and a npc that is part of the group is Pal15/sword of rightousness2. Should I add the guy as Ranger17 of 16?I mean,at 17 it isn't much fair,since the rogue worked hard from Lvl1 to get to 17,and throwing the other guy in at the same Lvl seems wrong,yet at 16 there is 2 Levels of differance between him and the wizard,wich may be an issue when creating chalanges. Maybe 16.5(half-way in XP to 17?) BTW,any PrC ideas for him?
MortalPlague 10-13-04, 03:55 AM	I'd go with level 1. Make him earn his place. Nah, just kidding... :P I'd put him in at level 16 and a half like you suggested. Or maybe give him level 17, but give him half the recommended gold? As far as prestige classes go, shouldn't that be up to the player?
Dash Branaghan 10-13-04, 04:07 AM	Take the average level of the party, round down and subtract one. He should still be able to hold his own. As far as Ranger PrCs go, depends on what kind of Ranger. The Dervish might be good for a two weapon fighter, or the Deepwoods Sniper/Order of the Bow Initiate might be good for a Bow Ranger (if I was making a level 16 Ranger, I would probably go 10 levels of Ranger, emphasis Bow, 3 Levels Deepwoods Sniper and 3 Levels Order of Bow Initiate, assuming you let me have two PrCs). Dash
CzarGarrett 10-13-04, 08:54 AM	Take the average level of the party, round down and subtract one. He should still be able to hold his own. Exactly what I was thinking
Lina_Inverse 10-13-04, 09:12 AM	just a warning,dont start him at lvl1.hes less than a cohort,less than some peoples followers.your pcs if there good rpers wont even let him in,cause hell die,every session. start him at party average lvl1.unless he had a previous char inwhich case GET HIM RAISED.if no raiseing(ahahahaa lvl18?true res is standard by then) put him at previous charlvl-1.so he still feels the raise penalty.
Gryllmyre 10-13-04, 09:23 AM	Starting him at 1 or 2 levels below the group will cause him to get more XP than the rest. It will help him catch up and make him earn his place.
Mr. Bungle 10-13-04, 09:48 AM	At high levels you don't notice much differance when a character is a level lower than the rest. I think he should be set at 16th, so that he would be the junior member of the team. I had in one of my camaigns a PC that lost his character sheet (unbelivable :twitch: ). I let his new character be a level lower than the others in the party. That way it is no "reward" for switching a character (rather a penalty for being stupid).
Shadowmagyk 10-13-04, 09:55 AM	I would say that he should be the same level as the NPC. It doesnt really make adifference at high levels, especially since he will catch up. It will also give him a bit of time to get used to his character before he is on par with the rest of the group.
Father Dale 10-13-04, 10:24 AM	Start him at the level equal to the lowest member of the party. Otherwise, you can end up with 3 or more levels of difference between party members, which is not good. If you start him at 1 lvl below the lowest member of the party, all the other characters will likely level up before he does, as they've already been working towards the next level. Thus, if you insist on making him lower level than the lowest in the party, put him at halfway to the next level, so that he levels up pretty soon.
Shard of Suzail 10-13-04, 10:33 AM	Our party has had a lot of final deaths and thus new characters at various stages of the campaign. We found that one of the primary advantages that older characters had was that they had much more tailored equipment. As they had been on all sorts of great quests and had inherited the items of fallen colleagues, the surviving old guard got good toys. We were happy for new players to come in at our level since it meant that they spent a while before they were adequately tooled up with rings and weapons of choice etc. I didnt wear any magic rings till a half party wipeout at level 10, for instance. Our gm limits newer characters to two magic items of reasonable power, but those do not compare to some of the mightier items we have earned in our time of facing risks. Its a fair trade off. You get ressurected and probably lose a level, but keep your stuff and role in the group, or you remake a character (which is a lot easier to prestige with, since its being made at an advanced level) but your items are limited and your status in the group is diminished. I think that is limit enough for new characters. Older characters should have enough toys and strange abilities picked up by virtue of plot events and missions that they still feel they have earned something. If all they have earned is experience levels, then they have had a pretty boring time of it. Our other cleric, for instance, was given a unique special ability, a healing song (he is part bard) as a result of a scenario. If he made a new character, then he wouldnt have this, so it all works out. It also helps that we have stopped feeling that we are in competition with other players. As far as i am concerned, they can be levels above me and prestige this and that, because at the end of the day, they are on my side and help to keep me alive.
meabolex 10-13-04, 11:03 AM	Since I base encounter difficulty on the average party level, I'd just add her in at that level. If the average party level is a fraction (10.9, for instance), I'd round down. If she's never played D&D before, I start her out at first level (: Even in a level 16 party, a 1st level fighter can learn the ropes. . . which usually means run! Besides, a very new player can be a big burden when it comes to explaining every detail about how the game works. It's also an insult to the higher level PCs to have a new character with great power use it in an inexperienced way. With the 3.5 experience system, a 1st level character will go up fairly quickly in levels -- giving the new player not too long to get fairly powerful. Or the 1st level character will die very quickly. . . learning that sometimes running up and hitting things isn't a good idea (:
spasheridan 10-13-04, 12:16 PM	Since I base encounter difficulty on the average party level, I'd just add her in at that level. If the average party level is a fraction (10.9, for instance), I'd round down. SO, if you have a pair of 17th level PCs and add a 1st level PC, the average party level is about 13. CR 13 encounters are basicly worhtless to 17th level PCs and to high for a 1st level PC to gain any XP from. Also a 1st level PC can't even stand near CR 13 monsters without getting hit with some area spell that will wipe them out. If she's never played D&D before, I start her out at first level (: Even in a level 16 party, a 1st level fighter can learn the ropes. . . which usually means run! Besides, a very new player can be a big burden when it comes to explaining every detail about how the game works. It's also an insult to the higher level PCs to have a new character with great power use it in an inexperienced way. With the 3.5 experience system, a 1st level character will go up fairly quickly in levels -- giving the new player not too long to get fairly powerful. Again, this isn't true. You cannot gain XP for encounters that you don't participate in, nor do you gain XP for encounters that are more than 8 levels higher than yours'. A 1st level PC gains no XP for CR 10+ encounters. I' think really what you are doing is sticking it to the new guy. "Oh, yer a newb? Why don't you tag along as a 1st level punk and watch us gods among men smash through the dragons. Oh, did you get hit with a breath weapon? SOrry, you're dead. Hope you had fun n00b." Or the 1st level character will die very quickly. . . learning that sometimes running up and hitting things isn't a good idea (: Or, learning that playing with you is just no fun at all. If you want to introduce a new player to the game you should make the WHOLE party start over. Get the newbie up to level 4 or 5 so they learn the ropes. Then advance that PC up to the old campaigns level and play from there or keep playing the new campaign.
Saiph 10-13-04, 02:15 PM	I usually start them as equal to the lowest leveled living PC in the group. And at zero xp for the level (they've got to earn it all). That way they are basically on par with everyone, but still a bit behind. It works out okay, my players don't complain, and people don't feel penalized for dying and wanting a new character (though they are disadvantaged somewhat). :::shrugs::: I'd ask your group, talk about it in general, pro's, con's, what you'd like to prevent etc. Now, my biggest problem with character death isn't introducing the new character, it's dealing with the old. The new guy comes in, normally, with the wealth appropriate with their level (they've been adventuring before joining the group afterall). Since I try to keep the party at the recommended wealth levels, this isn't to much of a problem. Except....the dead guy's loot is still in the party (unless they died in a particularly gruesome fashion, like falling in a lava pool). And so you get wealth of say, 6 10th level pc's in a 5 member group. This is also why I don't mind people retiring characters early (though I do discourage frequent character swapping).
meabolex 10-13-04, 02:52 PM	Ahh, the joys of the forums (: Or, learning that playing with you is just no fun at all. If you want to introduce a new player to the game you should make the WHOLE party start over. Get the newbie up to level 4 or 5 so they learn the ropes. Then advance that PC up to the old campaigns level and play from there or keep playing the new campaign. The following quotes are from the DMG. I've put them here since I don't see them referenced in your accusations. When a new player joins the group, take the average levels of the existing PCs and allow the new player to create a character of that level. The only exception to this guideline is when the new player is completely unfamiliar with the D&D game. In that case, it's easiest for that player to start with a 1st-level character. Second, in the experience table you mention, there's a note that refers to 'assigning ad hoc experience.' From this section: Sometimes the experience table doesn't quite cover a given situation. This is one of those times. I don't believe it is fair to the rest of the party, having worked and developed their characters, to have a brand new player to the game playing with a very high level character. Yes, the level 1 character is going to be weak the first couple of encounters. Yes, I give experience as I deem it in this situation, so by the end of the session the character will probably be near the average party level. I'd also provide extra equipment and gear to balance out this character. No, it's not a mechanical process and it's not designed to make the new character feel bad. It's simply to show them, in an iterative fashion, how to play the game in a high-level setting. It also gives the PCs the challenge of protecting the temporarily weaker character, which can make for a good adventure. Playing with a lot of brand-new players is rough. I've done it plenty of times. I've started the new players out at equal level. And I've seen big messes made out of it. I really don't think you're being fair to the other players if you allow someone into the game who's going to be disruptive. . . and new players, asking tons of questions and not knowing the rules, tend to be pretty disruptive. My solution (and the DMG's solution): give them a smaller amount of rules to work with, allow them to observe in-game the actions of other players, get them to think outside the box at first (and outside the 'I'm level 17 so I can do anything I want with my power' box) and by the end of the session have them working with the PCs equally.
DeadEye19 10-13-04, 07:27 PM	First, start him at party average lvl1.unless he had a previous char inwhich case GET HIM RAISED.if no raiseing(ahahahaa lvl18?true res is standard by then) put him at previous charlvl-1.so he still feels the raise penalty. Well,he has been killed by the PCs themselves.They may or may not tried to take him down alive instead of dead,yet they have killed him with no regrets. The thing is...he was,well,fallen from grace would be going easy on him-He lost the way of a monk(good)-fell to the wrong hands-devils.From there,he sank deeper to their world for revange at the demons that anihalated the village he was guarding alone-a long story,until he became a descpile of mephisto(without other PCs knowladge). He could have chose not to confort them, yet he couldn't escape the paladin's demand for vengance-he was given 6 bone devils to help him on what seemed to be 1on1,and a Pit fiend watched from saifty,casting a spell or two when it seemed fitting. The wizard's Wages of Sin spell turned it all around. It was a dramatic finish,btw. Seconed,NO WAY I'm gonna put him at 1st,he is not new,and I dont see how so many fighting exp. can be equled in a couple of fights of hit and run or ru-and-run faster.
Rian Lightblade 10-13-04, 07:40 PM	Take the average level of the party, round down and subtract one. He should still be able to hold his own. That's what we do in our group, and it's never been a problem :D
friedmad 10-13-04, 07:57 PM	I would start him at 15th level and have him seek out the party members who would send him on a solo quest, just to prove his worthiness to join them. If he succeeds, i'd level him up to 16th.
DeadEye19 10-14-04, 02:45 AM	I would start him at 15th level and have him seek out the party members who would send him on a solo quest, just to prove his worthiness to join them. If he succeeds, i'd level him up to 16th. Problam with this idea,which is a good one btw,is that I cant force my PCs to send him...It may not make any RP sense.A pity though...
friedmad 10-14-04, 11:40 AM	Thank you. Actually it makes pretty good RP sense: The PCs are approaching epic level. Aside from that, they should be wary of anyone new joining their party since they had problems with the last guy (the character they had to kill). If I were a PC approaching epic level, I'd surely want to test the mettle of anyone new wanting to join up, just to make sure the new character is 'worthy'.
Nom 10-14-04, 11:48 AM	DMG 3.5 pg 42 gives a bunch of advice on introducing new characters. The default recommendation is that replacement chars start with just enough XP to be 1 level below the char they were replacing. Yes, this is slightly less than raising the old char from the dead (assuming that were possible), and the text suggests that this is deliberate. Whatever you choose to do, take note of this sentence: "Choosing a level for the new character is matter (sic) of finding the balance point where a new character is viable and fun to play without outshining the other PCs". On the (off-)topic of players new to D&D, they should start at first level, and they should start as part of a low (preferably first) level party. If this means temporarily suspending your existing campaign to play a few low-level adventures, then so be it. Or find an alternative forum where they can learn the basics of the game without the mass of confusing options at higher levels.
Grayson 10-14-04, 12:14 PM	New folks in my games start at the level of the lowest-level PC, with no xp. Since I generally hand out signifigantly more treasure than is the "norm", they're penalized in gear, which I've found to be enough of a balance to prevent character-switching.
DeadEye19 10-14-04, 01:49 PM	Thank you. Actually it makes pretty good RP sense: The PCs are approaching epic level. Aside from that, they should be wary of anyone new joining their party since they had problems with the last guy (the character they had to kill). If I were a PC approaching epic level, I'd surely want to test the mettle of anyone new wanting to join up, just to make sure the new character is 'worthy'. Yes,but as people of good nature,they don't want to put him to some quest he can't get out of. Yet I should, maybe through the NPC,bring up the Idea.Testing one's worth is a good thing(if there is some quest the Pcs know about yet somehow feel they can leave it to him),and it may give him a chance to test his abilities with his new charecter,a ranger. Thanks a lot.
Son of Khoron 10-14-04, 02:53 PM	I do games where a player who has a dead hero/villian character will play a new one at ONE level below the party average, his/her xp total will be at the mid-point between that level and the next level. If a player at some point is unhappy with his character and wants to play a different one, that is fine too. RP the unwanted character as he/she should be and it is all fgood to me. The new character is also ONE level lower. I do not penalize unhappiness, however there is a limit on the number of times that you can change due to unhappiness. XP at mid-point between starting level and new level. One variation of unhappiness that is too easy and not RP at all is ridding the character by suicide, deliberate killing off of the character (paladin goes insane for no reason, charges into every dark room which he was hesitant to do before, dies by a mix of traps and ambushes) solely to play a new one. New character is TWO levels below, xp at min amount for that level, and no further unhappy suicide attempts.
DeadEye19 10-15-04, 01:40 AM	Yes,but my players don't change so rapidly-the two others have gone from 1st level to their current,never playing a different one,and the ex-monk-would-be-ranger will now play his seconed... And from time to time there was another 4th player... Like a guy who came in playing a druid and killed on the second session (3 hill gaints)... then played a ranger who died again on the second(two blue dragon breaths). I didn't try to kill him, and I guess I could fudge the dice roll so he won't die so early... but I didn't knew his current hp... It came as a surprise to me.
danielinthewolvesden 10-15-04, 03:52 AM	I usually start them as equal to the lowest leveled living PC in the group. And at zero xp for the level (they've got to earn it all). That way they are basically on par with everyone, but still a bit behind. It works out okay, my players don't complain, and people don't feel penalized for dying and wanting a new character (though they are disadvantaged somewhat). : Now, my biggest problem with character death isn't introducing the new character, it's dealing with the old. The new guy comes in, normally, with the wealth appropriate with their level (they've been adventuring before joining the group afterall). Since I try to keep the party at the recommended wealth levels, this isn't to much of a problem. Except....the dead guy's loot is still in the party And so you get wealth of say, 6 10th level pc's in a 5 member group. This is an excellent post, and is basicly what I do. Same level as the lowest, but at base xps. Here's how I solve the "old pC's stuff' problem (unless there is a good reason to move it out of the game)- I start the new guy with loot from the table DMG pg 135- but one level lower. It's kinda a compromise between having the new PC start a whole level lower- with attendant lower loot. I let them start at party level, but with one level lower loot.