At what point is Powergaming abusive? [Archive] - Wizards Community

At what point is Powergaming abusive? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
YRM
01-17-06, 01:29 PM Let me give you guys an example from a campaign that my friend is running.

After three years of being a DM, my campaign wrapped up. As a DM you often don't feel the stress of a tough encounter. Many encounters seem "easy" unless a PC is bleeding to death or dead, (even if they were at 2 HP, worried sick).

I really enjoy being DM, but, I was a bit worn out on my forces losing every encounter (even though I'd killed different PCs a total of 5 times over 17 levels in fair, reasonable encounters).

So when I got my chance to be a player, I wanted to be something that was very effective, and didn't have many weaknesses.

I play a Half-Orc Monk, and we were using high-powered stats, so my STR, WIS, DEX and CON are all fairly high. His background was that he was abandoned, then harshly raised by kind dwarves for a few years before being shipped off to Candlekeep to work as a librarian/monk.

But the half-orc side sometimes overrules the LG side, and he just couldn't live a life of seclusion and training without danger. He follows the law, and shows mercy, but, he's a passionate, driven adventurer, desperate to achieve the highest level of fighting that he can, so that he can be in the books he so loved to read as a novice.

Over 14 levels, I've aquired a lot of items with good synergy that don't cost a ton of money.

At Level 8, the Fist of Raziel and I realized that our PCs had more loot than the rest of the party, so, we put ourselves on a loot-strike (except potions) for the next two levels until it was all balanced out.

At level 12, we did a favor for an archmage who offered, as a reward, one permanency spell each. I'd already been using potions of enlarge fairly frequently (after a Duergar Reaping Mauler kicked my tail one time, and I learned the benefit of enlarging), so I became permanently enlarged.

Now, my Level 14 Half Orc Monk, supported by a strong Druid, Fist of Raziel (with wizard cohort), and Rogue/Barbarian, often has almost no weaknesses in combat.

My AC ranges between 31 and 40, depending on spells.
Four attacks at the highest bonus with haste and FoB.
Monk's belt and enlarge = 3d8+7 damage, more with spells.
Immune Poison.
Spell Resistance
Great saves.
Stunning attacks.
Blindingly fast.
Blind fight.
Improved Trip, etc.
Dimension door.

I make the most of all of my abilities over the course of a day, and only high STR fighter type foes can regularly hurt this guy. Some spells, like Ice Storm, take a toll due to the monk's relatively average HP.

For the most part though, our whole party works together as almost a "SWAT" team, storming through dungeons, avoiding traps, and smiting foes, room after room, without resting.

We've been challenged, nearly killed at times, but, this group has been extremely effective.

I've helped the other players to pick feats (just suggestions), so that their PCs can shine too. At L14, nobody stands out as "the best" (although it's probably the Druid and his Dire Wolf).

We plan tactics, and often use Rary's Telepathic Bond via the Cohort.

We can and do handle diplomacy (and my monk has put enough ranks into it to compensate somewhat for his bad CHA), but we've obviously powergamed somewhat to be able to attack an enemy very hard, and not be too vulnerable.

We lack true Arcane blaster power, but this fast group is murder on enemy spellcasters that aren't flying (and sometimes even then).

Yet, the campaign is challenging, our equipment isn't out of line with the DMG suggested cost per level, and everyone gets to shine and have fun.

Yes, we're powergaming, and planning the best tactics we can, but we're also roleplaying, and each PC has an interesting background and motivation.

Everyone cares about their PC and tries to be as effective as they can, without diving into unofficial splat books or the like.

At what point does powergaming become abusive? Some DMs might think that ANY powergaming is abusive, while others don't worry about it until a Monkey Gripping, Ogre, Barbarian Berserker with an Improved Crit Scythe is doing 400 damage.
WayneTheGame
01-17-06, 01:34 PM Another powergaming thread?! ~_~'

Simply put: Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character. That's the point where the good player tones things down so everyone has fun, and the jerk player tells the rest of them "Suck it up, lamers. You made a wuss character and I didn't."
YRM
01-17-06, 01:54 PM I made this in a new thread, because I want to try to get an understanding for what people consider to be powergaming.

Personally, I'd agree with what you said... except in a case where some other party members were beyond help, and not even performing up to average standards.

In our case, the two of us who were really focused on our PCs took a step back when we realized that some of the others had fallen behind, we stopped taking new items for two levels, and we tried to help them tune their characters a bit so that they'd be more effective and have more fun as a result. They were receptive, and now every character in the group is effective... but some might say that the whole group is powergaming, since we are crafting our characters and tactics very carefully.
Some_call_me_Tim
01-17-06, 02:03 PM I was going to say "If you have to ask if something is abusive or not, it probably is."
Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character.
But what Wayne said works too.
MysteryGilgamesh
01-17-06, 02:03 PM Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character

Unfortunatly, that point is quite nebulous. It's mindlessly easy to take 4 core feats (PA and Spirited Charge being among them), a single noncore weapon enchantment (Valorous, from FR), and deal over 100 points of damage in a single strike on a charge by 5th or 6th level. That obviously outstrips anything anyone can do at that level, and the higher you go, the higher this number climbs, probably breaking over 300 by 20th level, easily, especially if you add noncore things. And without the single noncore thing in this, it'll still average 75ish damage at 5th-6th level. You can do this without even realizing it, thats how easy it is. Is that powergaming? Is that broken?

And if it isn't powergaming, then if someone accomplishes the same in a different way, except with a PrC or different non-core feats, is it then powergaming?

The answer lays only within the minds of individual players and GM's. I hold the opinion that the only "broken" things are those that the GM cannot compensate for, and a good GM can compensate for everything.
Draco Strang
01-17-06, 02:03 PM WayneTheGame nailed it. I let my players pick feats, skills, classes, spells, ad nauseum until they're blue in the face (within my set limits of source, however). Is it powergaming? Hell yea it is, but they're just trying to get a leg up on the challenges that I throw at them.

It only becomes a problem when they're becoming extremely abusive, or the rest of the group feels that the "powergamed" character is detrimental to the overall enjoyment of game by the other players. Everyone should be reasonably equal in terms of power, assuming they're all the same level. If one player repeatedly stands head and shoulders above the rest due to his build, then it's time to cut the cord and build a new character.
oxybe
01-17-06, 02:07 PM :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

bravo! félicitations! a perfect example of good powergaming! as a strong supporter of powergaming (and roleplaying, don't get me wrong), i strongly agree with wayne: powergaming = bad IF disruptive. otherwise, i would like to highlight the positive facts about 2 powergamers helping the whole:

-you recognised your above average power and tried to balance it out by giving freebies to the other PC's. on top of being a nice act in itself, it showed a good commitment to the team as a whole.

-
I've helped the other players to pick feats (just suggestions), so that their PCs can shine too. At L14, nobody stands out as "the best" (although it's probably the Druid and his Dire Wolf).
I'm sure a lot of those suggestions were recieved with a "Thanks! i didn't see that combo at first!". Being able to help your party OOC is just as important as IC. yeah druids tend to stick out at higher levels, but hey, its a caster that can shapeshift, what did you expect ;) .

again

:cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer:
WayneTheGame
01-17-06, 02:10 PM MysteryGilgamesh: I agree with you, but its ony powergaming if the rest of the group feels inferior and has a problem with that person doing it. Its legal to take and you can do it with 4 feats and the Valorus enchantment liek you mentioned, and yes that's powergaming, but it's not abusive unless the other players say to you "Hey man, we're not having fun because your character can dish out 100 damage on a charge.. its ruining the game for the rest of us."
oxybe
01-17-06, 02:43 PM if people complain simply because of damage being dealt, then they have problems, and not the powergamer. I really don't see how a fighter who charges is a problem. in open areas, he rules, but underground (mounts have a hard time navigating low areas, if even possible with a rider on their back), in unstable terrain (cannot charge), ect... he looses much power.

if you whined to me because i can deal more damage then you, my probable responce would be along the lines of: :confused: "and you want to drag out this fight, why? let's get this over with so we can actually do something important." followed by "and why is my 100+ damage more important then what you contribute to the group? yes i blew up the kobold, so what? there is more to D&D then just damage. I just want to get past the fights faster and onto actual RP."
phelanarcetus
01-17-06, 03:32 PM There's two cases in which I find powergaming to be disruptive and/or abusive.

First, what WayneTheGame said. When it interferes with other player's enjoyment because you're stealing the spotlight. (This can be achieved in terms of a highly dominant character personality who bosses everyone else around, too, it's not just powergaming.) This becomes disruptive when what's a challenge for the other party members is trivial for one, and a challenge for that one is overwhelmingly hard for the rest of the party. That should only be extreme situations, but once one character is powerful enough to make the others feel consistently weak, there's a problem.

Second: when the mechanical concept behind the character (that is, the powergaming) takes precedence over the roleplaying concept. In other words, when you don't think in terms of a personality or background, but in terms of "I'm going to make a greataxe-wielding massive damage dealer... now, what race/class/etc is best for that... ::work work:: ok I guess I need a name and background and all that sort of stuff now". Basically, the people who go first to the Character Optimization Boards before they even think about things like the Character Development Boards.

I tend to work out my basic concept in terms of the major personality / background point(s), a sprinkling of appearance (which tends to cover a signature weapon if not anything about how it might be used), and then hit some mechanics, before returning to flesh out personality and background. But I have some personality down by the time I've reached "archer" in terms of mechanics. And even if I could be much more powerful by breaking my concept, I stick to the concept.
StevenO
01-17-06, 05:40 PM Powergaming is only abusive when the rules are being ignored and/or the game starts to be unenjoyable to anyone including the DM.

The group presented does raise a few possible red flags as far as ignoring the RAW. My first problem is how high-powered are the stats as most of the characters look like the MAD type who only do very well with multiple high stats. A second concern for excessive power is the value of having a Permanent spell placed on each character at level 12; that permanency gift should be considered when you are comparing a character's net worth of treasure. The third powergamer problem may be the Fist of Raziel (a Paladin PrC if I recall correctly) from the Book of Exhalted Deeds; several things from that tome are considered broken if true Exhaltedness is not adhered to.

Depending on how those issues are dealt with the OP's party actually sounds well balanced and fun. The only real problem may be a DM who gave a little too much and now has trouble properly challenging the PCs. In DnD, the DM is the most underappreciated person since they do most of the setup work only to let the PCs come in a smash it all, and they need to do that without holding it against the players which can be hard since it can feel so much like losing.
MysteryGilgamesh
01-17-06, 06:34 PM Second: when the mechanical concept behind the character (that is, the powergaming) takes precedence over the roleplaying concept.

I've found a lot of people do the mechanics first, then come up with the character. I know I do this myself, because it's infinitely more fulfilling to know what I can and can't do, and make a background that accurately reflects that. It just makes background writing easier when you've got every variable of chargen accounted for already.

The charger I mentioned above who can deal over 100 damage in one charge at level 6? His entire sheet and career was plotted out level by level, up to 20th, before the pencil even touched the "Background" part of the sheet. When the creation was finished, the background was about triple the length of the sheet.
Arak the mighty
01-17-06, 07:49 PM IT sounds like your group is having fun, and you and the (druid?) don't want to leave your friends behind. If by helping them with their feat selection and whatnot you keep them in line power-wise with the rest of the group, all's the better. If your Dm is still throwing challenging encounters at you, I see no issues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
YRM 01-17-06, 01:29 PM	Let me give you guys an example from a campaign that my friend is running. After three years of being a DM, my campaign wrapped up. As a DM you often don't feel the stress of a tough encounter. Many encounters seem "easy" unless a PC is bleeding to death or dead, (even if they were at 2 HP, worried sick). I really enjoy being DM, but, I was a bit worn out on my forces losing every encounter (even though I'd killed different PCs a total of 5 times over 17 levels in fair, reasonable encounters). So when I got my chance to be a player, I wanted to be something that was very effective, and didn't have many weaknesses. I play a Half-Orc Monk, and we were using high-powered stats, so my STR, WIS, DEX and CON are all fairly high. His background was that he was abandoned, then harshly raised by kind dwarves for a few years before being shipped off to Candlekeep to work as a librarian/monk. But the half-orc side sometimes overrules the LG side, and he just couldn't live a life of seclusion and training without danger. He follows the law, and shows mercy, but, he's a passionate, driven adventurer, desperate to achieve the highest level of fighting that he can, so that he can be in the books he so loved to read as a novice. Over 14 levels, I've aquired a lot of items with good synergy that don't cost a ton of money. At Level 8, the Fist of Raziel and I realized that our PCs had more loot than the rest of the party, so, we put ourselves on a loot-strike (except potions) for the next two levels until it was all balanced out. At level 12, we did a favor for an archmage who offered, as a reward, one permanency spell each. I'd already been using potions of enlarge fairly frequently (after a Duergar Reaping Mauler kicked my tail one time, and I learned the benefit of enlarging), so I became permanently enlarged. Now, my Level 14 Half Orc Monk, supported by a strong Druid, Fist of Raziel (with wizard cohort), and Rogue/Barbarian, often has almost no weaknesses in combat. My AC ranges between 31 and 40, depending on spells. Four attacks at the highest bonus with haste and FoB. Monk's belt and enlarge = 3d8+7 damage, more with spells. Immune Poison. Spell Resistance Great saves. Stunning attacks. Blindingly fast. Blind fight. Improved Trip, etc. Dimension door. I make the most of all of my abilities over the course of a day, and only high STR fighter type foes can regularly hurt this guy. Some spells, like Ice Storm, take a toll due to the monk's relatively average HP. For the most part though, our whole party works together as almost a "SWAT" team, storming through dungeons, avoiding traps, and smiting foes, room after room, without resting. We've been challenged, nearly killed at times, but, this group has been extremely effective. I've helped the other players to pick feats (just suggestions), so that their PCs can shine too. At L14, nobody stands out as "the best" (although it's probably the Druid and his Dire Wolf). We plan tactics, and often use Rary's Telepathic Bond via the Cohort. We can and do handle diplomacy (and my monk has put enough ranks into it to compensate somewhat for his bad CHA), but we've obviously powergamed somewhat to be able to attack an enemy very hard, and not be too vulnerable. We lack true Arcane blaster power, but this fast group is murder on enemy spellcasters that aren't flying (and sometimes even then). Yet, the campaign is challenging, our equipment isn't out of line with the DMG suggested cost per level, and everyone gets to shine and have fun. Yes, we're powergaming, and planning the best tactics we can, but we're also roleplaying, and each PC has an interesting background and motivation. Everyone cares about their PC and tries to be as effective as they can, without diving into unofficial splat books or the like. At what point does powergaming become abusive? Some DMs might think that ANY powergaming is abusive, while others don't worry about it until a Monkey Gripping, Ogre, Barbarian Berserker with an Improved Crit Scythe is doing 400 damage.
WayneTheGame 01-17-06, 01:34 PM	Another powergaming thread?! ~_~' Simply put: Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character. That's the point where the good player tones things down so everyone has fun, and the jerk player tells the rest of them "Suck it up, lamers. You made a wuss character and I didn't."
YRM 01-17-06, 01:54 PM	I made this in a new thread, because I want to try to get an understanding for what people consider to be powergaming. Personally, I'd agree with what you said... except in a case where some other party members were beyond help, and not even performing up to average standards. In our case, the two of us who were really focused on our PCs took a step back when we realized that some of the others had fallen behind, we stopped taking new items for two levels, and we tried to help them tune their characters a bit so that they'd be more effective and have more fun as a result. They were receptive, and now every character in the group is effective... but some might say that the whole group is powergaming, since we are crafting our characters and tactics very carefully.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-17-06, 02:03 PM	I was going to say "If you have to ask if something is abusive or not, it probably is." Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character. But what Wayne said works too.
MysteryGilgamesh 01-17-06, 02:03 PM	Powergaming becomes abusive if/when the rest of the group feels completely useless and/or inferior compared to your character Unfortunatly, that point is quite nebulous. It's mindlessly easy to take 4 core feats (PA and Spirited Charge being among them), a single noncore weapon enchantment (Valorous, from FR), and deal over 100 points of damage in a single strike on a charge by 5th or 6th level. That obviously outstrips anything anyone can do at that level, and the higher you go, the higher this number climbs, probably breaking over 300 by 20th level, easily, especially if you add noncore things. And without the single noncore thing in this, it'll still average 75ish damage at 5th-6th level. You can do this without even realizing it, thats how easy it is. Is that powergaming? Is that broken? And if it isn't powergaming, then if someone accomplishes the same in a different way, except with a PrC or different non-core feats, is it then powergaming? The answer lays only within the minds of individual players and GM's. I hold the opinion that the only "broken" things are those that the GM cannot compensate for, and a good GM can compensate for everything.
Draco Strang 01-17-06, 02:03 PM	WayneTheGame nailed it. I let my players pick feats, skills, classes, spells, ad nauseum until they're blue in the face (within my set limits of source, however). Is it powergaming? Hell yea it is, but they're just trying to get a leg up on the challenges that I throw at them. It only becomes a problem when they're becoming extremely abusive, or the rest of the group feels that the "powergamed" character is detrimental to the overall enjoyment of game by the other players. Everyone should be reasonably equal in terms of power, assuming they're all the same level. If one player repeatedly stands head and shoulders above the rest due to his build, then it's time to cut the cord and build a new character.
oxybe 01-17-06, 02:07 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: bravo! félicitations! a perfect example of good powergaming! as a strong supporter of powergaming (and roleplaying, don't get me wrong), i strongly agree with wayne: powergaming = bad IF disruptive. otherwise, i would like to highlight the positive facts about 2 powergamers helping the whole: -you recognised your above average power and tried to balance it out by giving freebies to the other PC's. on top of being a nice act in itself, it showed a good commitment to the team as a whole. - I've helped the other players to pick feats (just suggestions), so that their PCs can shine too. At L14, nobody stands out as "the best" (although it's probably the Druid and his Dire Wolf). I'm sure a lot of those suggestions were recieved with a "Thanks! i didn't see that combo at first!". Being able to help your party OOC is just as important as IC. yeah druids tend to stick out at higher levels, but hey, its a caster that can shapeshift, what did you expect ;) . again :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer: :clap: :cheer:
WayneTheGame 01-17-06, 02:10 PM	MysteryGilgamesh: I agree with you, but its ony powergaming if the rest of the group feels inferior and has a problem with that person doing it. Its legal to take and you can do it with 4 feats and the Valorus enchantment liek you mentioned, and yes that's powergaming, but it's not abusive unless the other players say to you "Hey man, we're not having fun because your character can dish out 100 damage on a charge.. its ruining the game for the rest of us."
oxybe 01-17-06, 02:43 PM	if people complain simply because of damage being dealt, then they have problems, and not the powergamer. I really don't see how a fighter who charges is a problem. in open areas, he rules, but underground (mounts have a hard time navigating low areas, if even possible with a rider on their back), in unstable terrain (cannot charge), ect... he looses much power. if you whined to me because i can deal more damage then you, my probable responce would be along the lines of: :confused: "and you want to drag out this fight, why? let's get this over with so we can actually do something important." followed by "and why is my 100+ damage more important then what you contribute to the group? yes i blew up the kobold, so what? there is more to D&D then just damage. I just want to get past the fights faster and onto actual RP."
phelanarcetus 01-17-06, 03:32 PM	There's two cases in which I find powergaming to be disruptive and/or abusive. First, what WayneTheGame said. When it interferes with other player's enjoyment because you're stealing the spotlight. (This can be achieved in terms of a highly dominant character personality who bosses everyone else around, too, it's not just powergaming.) This becomes disruptive when what's a challenge for the other party members is trivial for one, and a challenge for that one is overwhelmingly hard for the rest of the party. That should only be extreme situations, but once one character is powerful enough to make the others feel consistently weak, there's a problem. Second: when the mechanical concept behind the character (that is, the powergaming) takes precedence over the roleplaying concept. In other words, when you don't think in terms of a personality or background, but in terms of "I'm going to make a greataxe-wielding massive damage dealer... now, what race/class/etc is best for that... ::work work:: ok I guess I need a name and background and all that sort of stuff now". Basically, the people who go first to the Character Optimization Boards before they even think about things like the Character Development Boards. I tend to work out my basic concept in terms of the major personality / background point(s), a sprinkling of appearance (which tends to cover a signature weapon if not anything about how it might be used), and then hit some mechanics, before returning to flesh out personality and background. But I have some personality down by the time I've reached "archer" in terms of mechanics. And even if I could be much more powerful by breaking my concept, I stick to the concept.
StevenO 01-17-06, 05:40 PM	Powergaming is only abusive when the rules are being ignored and/or the game starts to be unenjoyable to anyone including the DM. The group presented does raise a few possible red flags as far as ignoring the RAW. My first problem is how high-powered are the stats as most of the characters look like the MAD type who only do very well with multiple high stats. A second concern for excessive power is the value of having a Permanent spell placed on each character at level 12; that permanency gift should be considered when you are comparing a character's net worth of treasure. The third powergamer problem may be the Fist of Raziel (a Paladin PrC if I recall correctly) from the Book of Exhalted Deeds; several things from that tome are considered broken if true Exhaltedness is not adhered to. Depending on how those issues are dealt with the OP's party actually sounds well balanced and fun. The only real problem may be a DM who gave a little too much and now has trouble properly challenging the PCs. In DnD, the DM is the most underappreciated person since they do most of the setup work only to let the PCs come in a smash it all, and they need to do that without holding it against the players which can be hard since it can feel so much like losing.
MysteryGilgamesh 01-17-06, 06:34 PM	Second: when the mechanical concept behind the character (that is, the powergaming) takes precedence over the roleplaying concept. I've found a lot of people do the mechanics first, then come up with the character. I know I do this myself, because it's infinitely more fulfilling to know what I can and can't do, and make a background that accurately reflects that. It just makes background writing easier when you've got every variable of chargen accounted for already. The charger I mentioned above who can deal over 100 damage in one charge at level 6? His entire sheet and career was plotted out level by level, up to 20th, before the pencil even touched the "Background" part of the sheet. When the creation was finished, the background was about triple the length of the sheet.
Arak the mighty 01-17-06, 07:49 PM	IT sounds like your group is having fun, and you and the (druid?) don't want to leave your friends behind. If by helping them with their feat selection and whatnot you keep them in line power-wise with the rest of the group, all's the better. If your Dm is still throwing challenging encounters at you, I see no issues.