Post/Author/DateTime	Post
frostyusa 10-12-03, 09:20 PM	Does anyone have suggestions about how to lead a party up to the door of evil without having them open it. My new storyline for my campaign has the party with a new sponsor. He is requesting that the party clear out an "evil" wizard and his henchmen. The sponser is really the BBEG polymorphed into a noble. The land really does belong to the BBEG but the wizard is trying to liberate the barony. How do I lead them down the path to track and destroy the wizard? What clues do I leave? I don't want them to actually go through with it, b/c that would lead to some serious atonement issues with the paladin and cleric among other things. (Nice storyline thought, but I really don't need that kind of hassle right now) I just don't want them to have a clue that their benefactor is really a mature adult red dragon until the last moment. If they did actually kill the wizard (thinking that all along they were doing something really good) it's still an evil act right? They still have to fight without their abilities (the cleric and the paladin anyway) until they atone, right?
ConfusedUs 10-12-03, 09:38 PM	In my opinion, its the INTENT that's important. If they're totally duped (by whatever means: false evidence, lies, etc) into killing someone 'for the good of the all', it is NOT their fault, and they have nothing to atone for. Yes they would have to deal with the repurcussions of their act, but it wouldn't necessarily cause them to lose favor with their dieties. The PCs are only mortal, and as such, are fallible. However, if they have seen evidence pointing to the innocence of this wizard, and go ahead and kill him anyway, THEN I would make them atone.
Crossover-Chronicler 10-12-03, 10:19 PM	As far as I know, they would only lose their abilities if they behaved irresponsibly. If they kill the wizard based on the baron's word alone, or if they ignore evidence to the contrary, then they still have to atone. But "haha! The evil necromancer was actuall a good evoker! That time you saw him eating babies was a polymorphed Ogre Mage!" is bad form. If the evidence is compelling enough, then the truth is irrelevent to their motives; what they did was an attempt to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. They just failed.
frostyusa 10-12-03, 10:56 PM	Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trick them into actually killing him, just to start an atonement quest (nice thought, though, )...I just want the clues to be really subtle. Enough that they have to confront the wizard about his actions. Everything should be ambuguous until that time. My first thought is that they get to the barony and the local militia house has been attacked and many of the guard killed. The characters have NO contact/information about the new area aside from what the sponsor (read BBEG) tells them at the beginning. So from that perspective (and my advantage, I think) is that we are starting from a totally clean slate. They have just crossed the Anauroch with the new sponsor so they will need to establish contacts in the community for help, resupply etc. Give me plot ideas people! pretty pretty please.
was_fired 10-12-03, 11:01 PM	To repeat what has been said it is the intent of an act which determins its alignment not the effect since we have no control over the final effect of any of our actions. Thus to lead them down the dark path can not be done through trickery but rather the much more classic "greater good". It is not evil to kill a person who you truly believe is a horribly evil being bent on destroying the world if your only goal is to save the world. Now if your true goal was to loot his dead body then it isn't good. Back on topic about the quest for the "greater good" often being evil. Lets say the PCs find out a horribly evil being is planning on doing something horribly evil. Logically they want to stop this but how are they going to stop this? Lets say the easiest path to do this is to beat a bunch of villagers senseless and torture them until they tell you what you wanted to know. Now lets add some strange details to this. Give this guy something which he treasures and NEEDS which the PCs require as well. So they torture this guy, and then steal this item to save the _______. Continue doing this through the quest and they will slowly turn darker and darker until they finally reach the point at which the scales shift.
ConfusedUs 10-13-03, 12:44 AM	Once again, if they have no clue they're DOING wrong, then there's nothing to atone for. Atonement is for people who break their edicts deliberately, or who just stand aside and let it happen.
frostyusa 10-13-03, 03:10 PM	I appreciate all the help but I did not expect this thread to become yet another paladin ethics debate. I just want to know how to fool some PC's.
lantzer 10-13-03, 04:22 PM	I don't see that it would require much fooling. The local lord is hiring PCs (a bunch of mercenaries) to kill or drive off a wizard who is a threat to the domain. Fairly straightforward. The alignment of the lord and wizard doesn't enter into it. In fact, if the PCs are locals, it would be their _duty_ to help out their lord. It's good to be the king. Now, if the PCs want to be rebels, it's up to them to side with the wizard. It's quite possible that they may never find out the wizard was a good guy. Smart PCs never give an enemy spellcaster a chance to talk. They live longer that way. And the Wizard isn't likely to try to recruit some bullyboys here to kill him - they were sent by the BBEG, after all.
bitnine 10-13-03, 04:33 PM	This BBEG is tricky, right? He's got the ability to polymorph, access to magic, and likely a way to obscure his alignment. One thing I'd have him do is wander by the "evil" wizard (if he isn't really evil) and cast a stilled, silent Protection from Good on 'im. Being an [evil] spell, the "evil" wizard will bear an aura that shows up to Detect Evil, just as if he were the real thang. Erm, after the party begins poking around, said BBEG could go as far to disguise himself as the "evil" wizard and hire some mercenaries/assassins to attack the party, making sure that he is seen. Heck, given that, there's all sorts of naughty things that he could do under said guise. Though it's a bit odd that the PHB specifically mentions penalties of a Paladin knowingly commiting an evil act if you take the view that it's impossible to unknowingly commit one.
Mike the DM 10-13-03, 04:49 PM	If you want to avoid the risk of divination magic (such as detect evil on the dragon) undermining your plan at the outset, use intermediaries, a couple of layers worth - keep the dragon a shadowy figure in the background pulling the strings, and put some neutral or even good dupe in the foreground to (mis)lead the party. The more the dupe believes he's doing "da Lawd's good work," the harder it will be for the players to prove otherwise. That's the easy part. The tough part is dealing with divination directed at the wizard freedom fighter - for example, if the wizard detects as good, that could be a problem. There are a couple of ways around this. First, the wizard could be neutrally aligned, avoiding the taint of evil that a paladin or spellcaster might be looking for. (I mention this because you should be prepared for the idea that the PCs will not blindly march off to kill this "BBEG" without doing a little investigative work first.) Second, be prepared to deal with augury-type spells or scrying with ambiguous messages about the wizard's motives, background, and actions: off-the-cuff, I would respond to an augury with something like, "The staff of the mage does the work of the gods" - meaning the wizard is working on behalf of the good deities in fighting evil, but the PCs could interpret it any of a number of different ways - or, "Beware that which lies within your enemies" - which sounds like the wizard could be possessed or some special magic, but actually refers to the polymorphed dragon. As far as everthing else, it's about as straighforward as you can get - the "evil" wizard is threatening the innocents and it's the players' job to save them. Using lots of set-pieces, like the "meteor stormed" town (really blasted with dragon fire), terrified villagers or weary soldiers (really frightened by an illusory wizard cast by the dragon), may mean you don't actually have to have the PCs encounter the wizard until the main scenario of the adventure - this approach also foils magic intended to detect lies, for example, as the villagers really believe the wizard attacked them.
Crossover-Chronicler 10-13-03, 04:50 PM	To fool PCS: With a decent Charisma and some shapeshifting magic, the BBEG can impersonate the wizard in question, at least from a distance. But a distance is all it takes to fireball a small hamlet into oblivion. It might seem over the top, but if the hamlet is loyal to the baron then it looks like a reprisal from a self-styled "freedom fighter." He leaves one alive to spread the word and lets the rest take care of itself. Spreading false rumors is also useful, as is a simple propaganda campaign; if the populace is terified of the wizard, the PCs will have an easier time believing in his guilt.
OGRE-MJC 10-13-03, 05:44 PM	I would be very careful about this storyline. Not to get into ethics, but just from a party/DM relationship standpoint. Players expect a certain amount of being led by the nose, but pull too hard and the players will almost always revolt (usually by leaving the game). I know that I couldn't get away with the level of manipulation that would be involved with getting the players to "the edge of the door, but not going in." I would recommend setting up the senario pretty much the way that you have, even let the BBEG do all he can to fool the players, but still leave definate clues (not subtle) who is really behind all of the badness. That give you an out either way: If the characters go ahead and kill the wizard, then make them atone. if they complain, point out the definate clues that you gave them and say they need to look before they leap. If they figure out the BBEG, then congratulate them and move on to the next story. The best way (if you have a good group of roleplayers) is to talk to them and tell them"hey, i've got a good adventure, but I'll require that your characters are trying to atone for a mis-deed." Do the mis-deed OOC, then start the adventure with them "on the road" to atonement. That way your not butting heads with the players, but making them part of the adventure from the start.
Merbeast 10-18-03, 07:38 PM	The tough part is dealing with divination directed at the wizard freedom fighter - for example, if the wizard detects as good, that could be a problem. Well, I suppose the wizard would be using spells like mind blank and non-detection, etc. to hide from the BBEG. As far as clues go, you could have some townsfolk talk about the woman who was abducted by the wizard [BBEG disguised]... The heroes investigate and find out the woman was the wizard's (wife/sister/mother/daughter), and she's currently in the BBEG's castle (odd... I wonder why?). I'd also make the wizard "neutral" rather than "good" for story purposes. It will make the PCs rely on clues rather than just zapping with detect spells. Speaking of "detect" spells, have more of the people who side for the BBEG be evil, and more of those who side for the wizard be good (as a clue).