Atonement in a desolated zone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Atonement in a desolated zone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Egres
11-20-07, 03:56 AM One of my PCs, the cleric, is found with the party in a desolated zone, and from days it has lost its powers because of an (intentional) evil act. How could he atone and regain his powers in such a hostile and difficult environment, with no people except for monsters? (for those of you who play in Eberron think about the Mournland or the Demon Wastes)

The party's medium level is 12, and the only caster besides the cleric is a wizard.
Meles_Meles
11-20-07, 04:04 AM I'd say that if the Cleric is serious about wanting to atone, and spends several days fasting and praying, their Deity might send them a vision (along with a Geas, perhaps). If the cleric fills the duty demanded of them from the vision, the deity might allow the cleric to pray for the atonement spell, and then cast atonement on themself.

Remember, a level 12 cleric is pretty important to the deity. If they weren't adventuring, they'd be running the temples for a whole city. It's definitely in the deity's interest to allow the cleric to recover from their ways of evil. Of course, if the deity has a serious divine stick up its ass, then maybe the cleric will have to pray to a different deity for atonement, and start worshipping a new god.
Amon_V
11-20-07, 04:34 AM Wait...

Since when do Clerics Fall?

The worst thing that could possibly happen is the clerics alignment shifts downwards, and they can no longer receive the blessing of their deity.

Also, recall that a Cleric CAN provide his own spells through belief in principle or ideology.

So, this scenario can be defused if the above still apply (The Cleric clears his conscience and re-establishes the link to his divine source), or his alignment shift doesn't move him out of touch with his deity.

Atonement is, actually, a very easy thing to do. The Cleric proves his sincerity to his deity, and his god (Wanting the cleric to return to his worship, and not head to another's) takes him back in. The Whole Geas sillitude doesn't fly, as the Cleric can ask for admission with another deity.

A 12th Level Cleric is not for a deity to lightly alienate--figure that the deity is probably willing to negotiate or deal for their loyalty. The whole 'forced quest' routine only makes sense if the cleric needs the deity more than the deity needs the cleric. And with multiple gods, the cleric has options--remember that the cleric is going to have a good dose of 'Knowledge: Religious' to pick another deity--a +15 bonus on the check is EXPECTED at that level. Given no better choice, the Cleric prays to another deity.
Egres
11-20-07, 06:01 AM I'd say that if the Cleric is serious about wanting to atone, and spends several days fasting and praying, their Deity might send them a vision (along with a Geas, perhaps). If the cleric fills the duty demanded of them from the vision, the deity might allow the cleric to pray for the atonement spell, and then cast atonement on themself.
That's not a bad suggestion, but I have no idea on how I could implement a Geas in the zone they are wandering at the moment.

Of course, if the deity has a serious divine stick up its ass, then maybe the cleric will have to pray to a different deity for atonement, and start worshipping a new god.

Unfortunately that's not a viable option for rp reasons.

Wait...

Since when do Clerics Fall?

The worst thing that could possibly happen is the clerics alignment shifts downwards, and they can no longer receive the blessing of their deity.
From the SRD:

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Atonement is, actually, a very easy thing to do. The Cleric proves his sincerity to his deity, and his god (Wanting the cleric to return to his worship, and not head to another's) takes him back in. The Whole Geas sillitude doesn't fly, as the Cleric can ask for admission with another deity.
Err, I and my players don't see this "god changing" on the fly as something very good from a rp viewpoint.

The whole 'forced quest' routine only makes sense if the cleric needs the deity more than the deity needs the cleric.
Well, it seems that this is the case in point.
Amon_V
11-20-07, 06:41 AM All right, I concede the point (I think I was thinking of druids); I'll point out, however, that the deity would need to be 'Good ONLY' in order to fall because of an evil act. The Deity's CoC need not be so black and white.

As for God Switching: Aren't other clerics constantly trying to gain more followers for their deity? Isn't that how deities maintain their divine rank in the first place? No matter; you use a different (stricter and less flexible) model than I do. I believe that a Cleric 12 would be a grand prize for any faith and if the deity would let him go, he would be allowed by another faith.

But, to continue the example, the Cleric is now TOTALLY HOSED. He has crappy weapon proficiencies, 3/4 BAB, and in all likelihood, poor allocation of ability scores, skills, and feats. He might be a Cleric 12 on Paper, but figure that Fighter 9 is probably a more reasonable estimate. Furthermore, the loss of divine spellcasting imperils the party entirely, not just the character in question.

In such a situation, the Wizard should TELEPORT everyone to a civilized environment so that the proper spell can be cast, and avoid this unpleasant scenario.

Otherwise, the cleric is literally at the mercy of the deity. This might make good RP, but Cleric 12 "Fighter 9" is going to need a bailout from the party to redeem himself, which doesn't make any sense from an RP Perspective:

"In order to redeem yourself, Ex-Cleric, you need to accompany your more capable friends and provide valuable moral support as they recover a valuable relic of my faith." What nice friends Mr. Ex-Cleric has, they're going to do all the work and he's going to get three levels in power back!

"Fighter 9" doesn't do anything for the party, or perhaps more fairly, he doesn't do anything level-appropriate for the party. Yes, it's awesome RP to have to have the Party put up with dead weight for a mission--but what's it to them? Why don't they get a Cleric 10 instead? With the Level up rules being what they are, he'll close the gap in power faster, and he'll start closer in power anyway.

RP comes in many forms and in many places--you probably should scale down "Ex-Cleric" heavily, if at all, on this adventure. Or, the cleric needs to seek atonement as an individual, not in a bailout fashion (And it is a bailout! Ex-Cleric 12 is DEAD MEAT against any CR 12).

Perhaps the Ex-Cleric should be an NPC; then you'd get all of the RP benefit with the same dead weight without forcing a player to play a horribly weak character. That's no fun--it might be good RP, but so is hitting on the tavern barmaid, and that is more fun.
Egres
11-20-07, 07:54 AM "In order to redeem yourself, Ex-Cleric, you need to accompany your more capable friends and provide valuable moral support as they recover a valuable relic of my faith." What nice friends Mr. Ex-Cleric has, they're going to do all the work and he's going to get three levels in power back!
:D

"Fighter 9" doesn't do anything for the party, or perhaps more fairly, he doesn't do anything level-appropriate for the party. Yes, it's awesome RP to have to have the Party put up with dead weight for a mission--but what's it to them? Why don't they get a Cleric 10 instead? With the Level up rules being what they are, he'll close the gap in power faster, and he'll start closer in power anyway.
That's why I'm here asking for suggestions.
Meles_Meles
11-21-07, 06:18 AM I've had a think about it, and here's an idea:

A group of monsters killed a one of the cleric's fellow clergymen. However, one of them was intelligent enough to read, and began reading the holy books on the corpse. He has now realized the error of his ways, and has established a small cult to your cleric's god in the wilderness. This could be a group of goblins or kobolds or whatever, led by a charismatic and unusually intelligent creature. They all are trying to atone for their evil past acts.

However, another tribe of monsters sees the new cult as dangerous because of its "goodness" and fear that the cult may try to convert others. Therefore, they begin launching raids against the cult, and plan a full attack soon. The cleric (and his party) must intervene to save this budding bastion of good in the wilderness.

Hooks:

After his days of fasting, the cleric receives a vision: A group of monsters (goblins or kobolds, perhaps, anything intelligent will do provided it fits with where they currently are) chanting prayers and dancing around a fire. An effigy of their old monstrous god burns before them, and a shrine to the cleric's god stands shiny and new. The vision then cuts to the same place, covered with the corpses of the new converts. He realizes that he must intervene to save them on his god's behalf.

While adventuring, they come across the corpse of a monster with a crude version of the god's holy symbol around its neck. The cleric must investigate, realizing that this could be his chance for redemption.

Etc...
Radijs
11-21-07, 06:46 AM Damn Meles. That sounds like a neat quest. Almost made me wish I had a cleric in the same situation :p
Cartigan
11-21-07, 08:33 AM From the SRD:

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).
The Cleric isn't very constrained really, have him worship the ideal he was fighting for or change gods.

And while utterly crazy and very deus ex machina, that is a nice idea for an atonement side quest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Egres 11-20-07, 03:56 AM	One of my PCs, the cleric, is found with the party in a desolated zone, and from days it has lost its powers because of an (intentional) evil act. How could he atone and regain his powers in such a hostile and difficult environment, with no people except for monsters? (for those of you who play in Eberron think about the Mournland or the Demon Wastes) The party's medium level is 12, and the only caster besides the cleric is a wizard.
Meles_Meles 11-20-07, 04:04 AM	I'd say that if the Cleric is serious about wanting to atone, and spends several days fasting and praying, their Deity might send them a vision (along with a Geas, perhaps). If the cleric fills the duty demanded of them from the vision, the deity might allow the cleric to pray for the atonement spell, and then cast atonement on themself. Remember, a level 12 cleric is pretty important to the deity. If they weren't adventuring, they'd be running the temples for a whole city. It's definitely in the deity's interest to allow the cleric to recover from their ways of evil. Of course, if the deity has a serious divine stick up its ass, then maybe the cleric will have to pray to a different deity for atonement, and start worshipping a new god.
Amon_V 11-20-07, 04:34 AM	Wait... Since when do Clerics Fall? The worst thing that could possibly happen is the clerics alignment shifts downwards, and they can no longer receive the blessing of their deity. Also, recall that a Cleric CAN provide his own spells through belief in principle or ideology. So, this scenario can be defused if the above still apply (The Cleric clears his conscience and re-establishes the link to his divine source), or his alignment shift doesn't move him out of touch with his deity. Atonement is, actually, a very easy thing to do. The Cleric proves his sincerity to his deity, and his god (Wanting the cleric to return to his worship, and not head to another's) takes him back in. The Whole Geas sillitude doesn't fly, as the Cleric can ask for admission with another deity. A 12th Level Cleric is not for a deity to lightly alienate--figure that the deity is probably willing to negotiate or deal for their loyalty. The whole 'forced quest' routine only makes sense if the cleric needs the deity more than the deity needs the cleric. And with multiple gods, the cleric has options--remember that the cleric is going to have a good dose of 'Knowledge: Religious' to pick another deity--a +15 bonus on the check is EXPECTED at that level. Given no better choice, the Cleric prays to another deity.
Egres 11-20-07, 06:01 AM	I'd say that if the Cleric is serious about wanting to atone, and spends several days fasting and praying, their Deity might send them a vision (along with a Geas, perhaps). If the cleric fills the duty demanded of them from the vision, the deity might allow the cleric to pray for the atonement spell, and then cast atonement on themself. That's not a bad suggestion, but I have no idea on how I could implement a Geas in the zone they are wandering at the moment. Of course, if the deity has a serious divine stick up its ass, then maybe the cleric will have to pray to a different deity for atonement, and start worshipping a new god. Unfortunately that's not a viable option for rp reasons. Wait... Since when do Clerics Fall? The worst thing that could possibly happen is the clerics alignment shifts downwards, and they can no longer receive the blessing of their deity. From the SRD: Ex-Clerics A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description). Atonement is, actually, a very easy thing to do. The Cleric proves his sincerity to his deity, and his god (Wanting the cleric to return to his worship, and not head to another's) takes him back in. The Whole Geas sillitude doesn't fly, as the Cleric can ask for admission with another deity. Err, I and my players don't see this "god changing" on the fly as something very good from a rp viewpoint. The whole 'forced quest' routine only makes sense if the cleric needs the deity more than the deity needs the cleric. Well, it seems that this is the case in point.
Amon_V 11-20-07, 06:41 AM	All right, I concede the point (I think I was thinking of druids); I'll point out, however, that the deity would need to be 'Good ONLY' in order to fall because of an evil act. The Deity's CoC need not be so black and white. As for God Switching: Aren't other clerics constantly trying to gain more followers for their deity? Isn't that how deities maintain their divine rank in the first place? No matter; you use a different (stricter and less flexible) model than I do. I believe that a Cleric 12 would be a grand prize for any faith and if the deity would let him go, he would be allowed by another faith. But, to continue the example, the Cleric is now TOTALLY HOSED. He has crappy weapon proficiencies, 3/4 BAB, and in all likelihood, poor allocation of ability scores, skills, and feats. He might be a Cleric 12 on Paper, but figure that Fighter 9 is probably a more reasonable estimate. Furthermore, the loss of divine spellcasting imperils the party entirely, not just the character in question. In such a situation, the Wizard should TELEPORT everyone to a civilized environment so that the proper spell can be cast, and avoid this unpleasant scenario. Otherwise, the cleric is literally at the mercy of the deity. This might make good RP, but Cleric 12 "Fighter 9" is going to need a bailout from the party to redeem himself, which doesn't make any sense from an RP Perspective: "In order to redeem yourself, Ex-Cleric, you need to accompany your more capable friends and provide valuable moral support as they recover a valuable relic of my faith." What nice friends Mr. Ex-Cleric has, they're going to do all the work and he's going to get three levels in power back! "Fighter 9" doesn't do anything for the party, or perhaps more fairly, he doesn't do anything level-appropriate for the party. Yes, it's awesome RP to have to have the Party put up with dead weight for a mission--but what's it to them? Why don't they get a Cleric 10 instead? With the Level up rules being what they are, he'll close the gap in power faster, and he'll start closer in power anyway. RP comes in many forms and in many places--you probably should scale down "Ex-Cleric" heavily, if at all, on this adventure. Or, the cleric needs to seek atonement as an individual, not in a bailout fashion (And it is a bailout! Ex-Cleric 12 is DEAD MEAT against any CR 12). Perhaps the Ex-Cleric should be an NPC; then you'd get all of the RP benefit with the same dead weight without forcing a player to play a horribly weak character. That's no fun--it might be good RP, but so is hitting on the tavern barmaid, and that is more fun.
Egres 11-20-07, 07:54 AM	"In order to redeem yourself, Ex-Cleric, you need to accompany your more capable friends and provide valuable moral support as they recover a valuable relic of my faith." What nice friends Mr. Ex-Cleric has, they're going to do all the work and he's going to get three levels in power back! :D "Fighter 9" doesn't do anything for the party, or perhaps more fairly, he doesn't do anything level-appropriate for the party. Yes, it's awesome RP to have to have the Party put up with dead weight for a mission--but what's it to them? Why don't they get a Cleric 10 instead? With the Level up rules being what they are, he'll close the gap in power faster, and he'll start closer in power anyway. That's why I'm here asking for suggestions.
Meles_Meles 11-21-07, 06:18 AM	I've had a think about it, and here's an idea: A group of monsters killed a one of the cleric's fellow clergymen. However, one of them was intelligent enough to read, and began reading the holy books on the corpse. He has now realized the error of his ways, and has established a small cult to your cleric's god in the wilderness. This could be a group of goblins or kobolds or whatever, led by a charismatic and unusually intelligent creature. They all are trying to atone for their evil past acts. However, another tribe of monsters sees the new cult as dangerous because of its "goodness" and fear that the cult may try to convert others. Therefore, they begin launching raids against the cult, and plan a full attack soon. The cleric (and his party) must intervene to save this budding bastion of good in the wilderness. Hooks: After his days of fasting, the cleric receives a vision: A group of monsters (goblins or kobolds, perhaps, anything intelligent will do provided it fits with where they currently are) chanting prayers and dancing around a fire. An effigy of their old monstrous god burns before them, and a shrine to the cleric's god stands shiny and new. The vision then cuts to the same place, covered with the corpses of the new converts. He realizes that he must intervene to save them on his god's behalf. While adventuring, they come across the corpse of a monster with a crude version of the god's holy symbol around its neck. The cleric must investigate, realizing that this could be his chance for redemption. Etc...
Radijs 11-21-07, 06:46 AM	Damn Meles. That sounds like a neat quest. Almost made me wish I had a cleric in the same situation :p
Cartigan 11-21-07, 08:33 AM	From the SRD: Ex-Clerics A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description). The Cleric isn't very constrained really, have him worship the ideal he was fighting for or change gods. And while utterly crazy and very deus ex machina, that is a nice idea for an atonement side quest.