Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aminvelos 04-15-07, 12:12 AM	If a player uses a silent image/prepared ghost sound to attack a creature, how do u decide the attackers stats? Can the caster create whatever he wants? (stats wise) or what? Or does the dm just make up a reflex save? What if the silent images looks like he's trying to push goblin down. Since the goblin is so small he'll probably think he'll lose against a mino...what to do? Sure if the defender wins his save he knows its an illusion but otherwise he'll act like the attack was real even though it will do no damage. Any suggestions?
Mind Rogue 04-15-07, 12:37 AM	Well, keep in mind that since the image is not real, it cannot possibly cause damage to the subject, even if they believe it to be real. Furthermore, being attacked by the image constitutes interacting with it; even if the illusion does not hit them, they should probably receive a save against it as they notice small discrepancies such as no air movement or sound. If they are actually 'hit' by it, that might be sufficient for them to automatically pierce the illusion; as the image passes right through them they realize that it is not real. Still, it can have its uses: as long as they are unaware of its true nature, an illusion of a monster could help grant a flanking bonus or draw attacks away from other members. As for actual rules on being hit by the illusion, there are none, but I would look towards other spells that summon spell effect that attack on their own. Spiritual weapon uses your base attack bonus plus your spellcasting stat on the attack roll. Meanwhile Telekinesis and the various Bigby's hand spells use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus. Either of these would make good templates to start with. Of course, you can intentionally miss so as not to spoil the illusion and a victim who knows the true nature of the illusion can choose to act like they are getting hit (although this might require a bluff check to act along properly). However, the poor Gobbo who gets bull rushed by the towering minotaur illusion would just blink in disbelief when he doesn't go hurtling through the air.
LadyAlaria 04-15-07, 12:43 AM	I think you are trying to make way too much out of Silent Image. You may be able to startle an unsuspecting victim - an image of a hawk flying overhead would make a rabbit run. But if you have the image actually attack a victim you'll get nothing more than a flinch At most, under some circumstances I might allow a player a flanking bonus for a single round, or the victim might use up their AoO probing the illusion. But I wouldn't let it have any sort of real "attack". Keep in mind, the goblin doesn't fall at the feet of the minotaur because he believes the minotaur that strong. He falls at its feet because the minotaur IS that strong.
Zankue 04-15-07, 12:46 AM	Ok but what about major image? it says that it can create thermal feelings IE heat, I've been wondering this for a while actually. I think that yes they will react to it, if I make a red dragon and they fail the save they'll think that they're on fire
Senevri 04-15-07, 02:19 AM	Well, yes. Stop, Drop and Roll... They still won't take any actual damage, though.
Bedevere 04-15-07, 06:49 AM	I dont know about anyone else, but if someone stuck a sword through my chest, and I didn't feel anything, I'd certainly say this constitutes 'Absolute proof' that its an illusion. If I have absolute proof of an illusions nature, then I don't even need a will save. I just automatically know its fake. Lesser interaction, such as me attacking and getting what 'looked' like a glancing blow, gives a save. I could have actually skimmed off its armour, I might have stabbed the cloth of his tunic, etc... (Note. The above is based on the hypothetical situation that magic is (a) real, and (b) being used to make illusions of sword wielding maniacs attack me)
daggeroflath 04-15-07, 07:40 AM	Illusionary glooms... Think about it ;)
Nephlite 04-15-07, 12:02 PM	I dont know about anyone else, but if someone stuck a sword through my chest, and I didn't feel anything, I'd certainly say this constitutes 'Absolute proof' that its an illusion. No, I'd think it was magic and worry about what side effects this sword has. It could be some Brillant sword (bypassing your armor and into you. That instead of damage does other effects like con damage or disease). Magic can do these things: so that wouldn't auto pierce. If I have absolute proof of an illusions nature, then I don't even need a will save. I just automatically know its fake. Lesser interaction, such as me attacking and getting what 'looked' like a glancing blow, gives a save. I could have actually skimmed off its armour, I might have stabbed the cloth of his tunic, etc... Actually, since you don't know the AC of the creature you attack (his illusion might have alot), unless you got a 20, you don't know. It might have concealment, blur, etc (somehow without the side effects of blurred image). Either way, it can't do real damage. And you woulld get a will save each time it hits you, I'd think.
Finarin Panjoro 04-15-07, 12:21 PM	That's why making illusions of incorporeal creatures (wraiths are my favorite) is such a wonderful thing. The way they pass through objects makes it much harder to discern that they're illusions. Plus incorporeal creatures can be utterly silent so they work great for Silent Image which doesn't have an audio component.
Aminvelos 04-15-07, 02:28 PM	Things I said in my previous post, that might have been unclear. 1. The illusion will not do damage. 2. If a mentally ill patient is having hallucinations he/she can easily think that she is being overpowered. THIS IS A WILL SAVE. So the fact that the sword goes through the person isn't cutting it, we know their is no sword. But because the guy failed his will save he thinks one is. The question is does failing the will constitute this measure, I think it does. 3. This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect. As far as the spell is concerned, there is nothing that states the image will not affect the creature. Therefore when the minotaur attacks with his enormous axe, and hits the goblin he'll make a will save to see if he realizes it's an illusion. Now he might get an intelligence role to see if he can figure out- no blood running + got hit = something wrong with this picture. Then again when a huge minotaur just wacked you with an axe as big as his and you believe it and survive it, you might be much more intent of running instead of seeing why your still alive. 4. If what the minotaur is facing is not a coward he'll probably figure it out, that when he gets hit he's not being felled and the more he studies the illusion the bigger will save mod he'll get to break the illusion. Of course if your a warrior and hasn't seen a mage cast this type of spell before, it's not the first conclusion you'll draw. Sure, it's easy to say "oh the sword didn't cause any pain it must be an illusion". But if your at lvl 1 and a minotaur whacked you with an axe or grazed you with a sword the first question on your mind would be shouldn't I be dead? Not OH IT MUST BE an illusion.-metagamer 5. Does the minotaur need to roll for an attack roll? Should it be a reflex save? Should it just hit and as always not cause damage? But the problem is what happens when the mino makes a special attack like overrun, or grapple? 6. Since technically their fighting themselves does equal to stats sound reasonable for all special attacks such as overrun or grapple, a loss in check will negate the spell. Or should I use something like spell caster lvl. 7. Can you be overpowered by an illusion, clearly you can by other illusion spells. Silent image allows for some of these scenario's to occur but I would think they should be at a lesser effect since it's a lower spell. Take the phasmal strangler for instance. He thinks he's being strangled by his worst fear and it does 2d6 of damage. If silent image began choking someone the person might stop breathing thereby doing damage to himself. After all if you think someone is choking you to the point to where you couldn't breath you'd essentially be holding your breathe.
danielinthewolvesden 04-16-07, 12:14 AM	If a player uses a silent image/prepared ghost sound to attack a creature, More or less it might cause them to waste a round attacking it, nothing more.