Attacks of opportunity and you... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of opportunity and you... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
D4rkchylde
11-14-03, 09:32 PM What are the rules on Attacks of Opportunity and ranged weapons, e.g. if a character A has a ranged weapon and character B provokes an attack of opportunity within the weapons range, can character A take a pop shot at character B?

Or does character A need to have a melee weapon in order to attack character B if character B is in melee attack range?
Vradin
11-14-03, 09:44 PM Yes, the character has to have a melee weapon in hand to take an attack of opportunity.

Vradin
D4rkchylde
11-14-03, 09:59 PM Ok thank you.
Fixxxer
11-14-03, 09:59 PM Technically speaking, character B isn't provoking an AoO at all. If character A has a bow in his hand and character B is standing 5ft away, drops his pants, does a little dance and quaffs a Potion of Evergrowing Phallus(tm), he is technically not provoking an attack of opportunity.

I realize that it seems like it's just semantics, but by the very definition of AoO, the opponent must have a weapon which can make an AoO for you to provoke one. This splitting of hairs really doesn't mean much at almost any time, but there's occasionally going to be one PrC or one crafty rules lawyer that will try to devise a way for him to drop his bow and draw his sword in enough time for him to capitalize on that AoO. At that time, it's important that you know that the offending opponent didn't provoke an AoO at all.

However, to put things very simply, unless the attacker has levels in a PrC or a feat that allows him to use a ranged weapon to make AoO, he cannot make one without a melee weapon.
green_yawgmoth
11-14-03, 10:03 PM It's spelled "Phallus". :D
D4rkchylde
11-14-03, 10:12 PM The reason I asked is because a few bandits ran screaming towards my PCs who all had Boys (stinking elves) and they wanted to know if they got AoO's since they were running in range of the missile weapons, similar to running within five feet of a longsword wielding Man. I just started DnD and I'm not yet familiar with the rules so I said I'd check it out here.

Likewise a bandit spellcaster was casting a spell within Longbow range and they wanted to know if he provoke an AoO as well.

But I see what you mean about Semantics now. Thanks
Fixxxer
11-14-03, 10:32 PM In that case, bare in mind, also, that you don't provoke an AoO against someone who is using a spell UNLESS the spell itself is a weapon and it already active. What I mean by this is that if you already have Shocking Grasp active, you can make an AoO on anyone who provokes you. However, if someone walks through what would normally be your melee threat range, you can't whip out a Burning Hands spell on them.

Note also that I don't believe you can make at AoO unarmed when you're using a weapon. I can't locate the source I got this from (right now), but I'm pretty sure that if you're holding a bow, you can't cry foul and make an AoO by kicking someone as they walk by (however, that's perfectly acceptible if you're fighting unarmed). As I said, I can't locate the source for this right now, but I know I've seen it.
Inigo Carmine
11-14-03, 10:44 PM AoOs aren't "free" attacks just because someone let their gaurd down, they're attacks that were going on behind the scenes anyways, but now they just have a chance of actually getting through enemy defenses.

Melee: When you're in melee combat, you're swinging your sword more times than you're rolling the dice. You're not swinging once and then standing there for 6 seconds until your next turn. it's a constant barrage of attacks, feints, parries, blocks, etc. In DnD terms, you "Threaten" the area around you. As you get better, you have a better chance of landing more hits (high bab = more attacks per round). BUT...if an opponent does something stupid right in front of you (like drink a potion) that attack that normally wouldn't have gotten through his defenses now has a good chance of doing so (extra attack at your highest BAB). It's not an "extra" attack flavor wise.

This is why AoOs don't make sense for ranged attacks. Your BAB (+ feats like rapid shot) represent the actual number of attacks you are making. You roll for 2 shots with your bow, you lose 2 arrows from your quiver. This represent the fastest that your character can get retrieve an arrow, knock it, aim at something and loose it. It makes no sense that you can suddenly get faster and shoot more arrows because someone 30 ft away sheathed their sword. Therefore, no AoO with a ranged weapon.

Heh..combine that with combat reflexes (and archers usually have high dex) and it would get stupid silly. Any lvl 1 joe schmoe can do a circus act.

"Watch as the amazing Joe archer fires 5 accurate shots from his bow in 6 seconds." But for some reason you can only do it if Bob stands 20 feet away and drinks a beer, Carl throws knives at a target, right next to you Jane stands up from prone, etc...
David777
11-15-03, 06:46 AM doesn't using a ranged weapon provoke an attack of opportuinity?

and if so doesn't that mean that 2 archers shooting at each other from across the room would get opportuinity attacks?

now thats just silly
David777
11-15-03, 06:57 AM from the players handbook. page 122
Threatened Area: You threaten the area into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not you action. Generally, that's everything within 5 feet of you in any direction. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
ksbsnowowl
11-15-03, 06:08 PM Originally posted by Inigo Carmine
This is why AoOs don't make sense for ranged attacks. Your BAB (+ feats like rapid shot) represent the actual number of attacks you are making. You roll for 2 shots with your bow, you lose 2 arrows from your quiver. This represent the fastest that your character can get retrieve an arrow, knock it, aim at something and loose it. It makes no sense that you can suddenly get faster and shoot more arrows because someone 30 ft away sheathed their sword. Therefore, no AoO with a ranged weapon.

Heh..combine that with combat reflexes (and archers usually have high dex) and it would get stupid silly. Any lvl 1 joe schmoe can do a circus act. Funny thing is, there is a character that can do exactly that. The Peerless Archer PrC from 'Silver Marches' (a FR campaign accessory) grants the ability to treat your bow as a 10' reach weapon for the puroses of AoO. However, the soonest that one can get to the PrC's 8th level in order to get that ability is at 15th character level.

Under 3.0 rules, an archer that has 6 levels of Order of the Bow Initiate and 8 levels of Peer Arch with a dex of 24 could theoretically fire off 18 arrows in one round (with the help of Haste). Of course, only 11 of them could be aimed at one opponent. The other 7 would have to be aimed at 7 other enemies who happen to provoke AoO's.
D4rkchylde
11-15-03, 08:50 PM Wow, I've learned a lot here and to think thi is my first question combat. I have much to learn, I've only Dmed three sessions so far and all of are new to DnD... this is a bit daunting. Thanks again though I really appreciate and need the help.
Fixxxer
11-16-03, 01:12 AM Originally posted by David777
doesn't using a ranged weapon provoke an attack of opportuinity?

and if so doesn't that mean that 2 archers shooting at each other from across the room would get opportuinity attacks?

No, using a ranged weapon does not provoke an AoO. Using a ranged weapon while you're standing in melee range of an opponent who has the means to attack you provokes an AoO, but only from him.

In addition, you cannot make an AoO with a ranged weapon (excepting for some very special PrCs).

Lastly, if I remember correctly, you cannot provoke an AoO by doing something that provokes an AoO. For instance, if your opponent tries to trip you, it provokes an AoO. You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs. As a result, I believe that the ruling is that if used as an AoO, an attack that provokes an AoO under normal circumstances doesn't provoke an AoO. I can't find a location for this information, so it's possible that I'm incorrect, but I don't think I am.
Whaledawg
11-16-03, 04:09 PM You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs. As a result, I believe that the ruling is that if used as an AoO, an attack that provokes an AoO under normal circumstances doesn't provoke an AoO

That's wrong. I used the same argument in a thread last year, I believe about punching someone with an AoO and someone pulled out the SRD on me. However that was 3.0, so they might have fixed it now.

Now I just call them case by case. I'll let a PC trip with an AoO but not grapple, etc. It's so much easier then trying to figure out what they intended with the rules in the middle of combat.
Blue Knight1982
11-16-03, 05:22 PM The closest thing I could find about not being able to make attack of opportunities is just in the case of unarmed attacks, but I think it makes sense for all attacks of opportunity...

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before you attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, as shooting a bow does, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. You provoke the attack of opportunity because you have to bring your body close to your opponent.

Though if it was during one of my games, they could use their bow as a melee weapon and thump them over the head with it.
the_heart
11-17-03, 11:03 AM Originally posted by Fixxxer
Lastly, if I remember correctly, you cannot provoke an AoO by doing something that provokes an AoO. For instance, if your opponent tries to trip you, it provokes an AoO. You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs.

stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO?
Fixxxer
11-17-03, 04:33 PM Originally posted by the_heart
stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO?

As I understand it, any attack action that can be used as a normal attack and does not involve any movement can be used as an AoO. Rules guys, this is correct, correct?
Inigo Carmine
11-17-03, 05:53 PM Originally posted by the_heart
stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO?

There's a chart in the combat chapter with all the different actions you can take (page 128 in 3.0, not sure what it is in 3.5). At the very bottom of that chart it has disarm, grapple and trip, all with a little superscript. The superscript reads something to the effect of "May be done multiple times in a full attack action, or even as an AoO".

The table from the SRD doesn't copy well, so I won't try and post it here, but you're welcome to look it up yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf) The relevant part of the chart is at the top of page 6.
the_heart
11-18-03, 04:07 AM Originally posted by Inigo Carmine
There's a chart in the combat chapter with all the different actions you can take (page 128 in 3.0, not sure what it is in 3.5). At the very bottom of that chart it has disarm, grapple and trip, all with a little superscript. The superscript reads something to the effect of "May be done multiple times in a full attack action, or even as an AoO".

The table from the SRD doesn't copy well, so I won't try and post it here, but you're welcome to look it up yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf) The relevant part of the chart is at the top of page 6.

many thanks. never looked to closely at that before.

opens up many nasty new options :smirk:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
D4rkchylde 11-14-03, 09:32 PM	What are the rules on Attacks of Opportunity and ranged weapons, e.g. if a character A has a ranged weapon and character B provokes an attack of opportunity within the weapons range, can character A take a pop shot at character B? Or does character A need to have a melee weapon in order to attack character B if character B is in melee attack range?
Vradin 11-14-03, 09:44 PM	Yes, the character has to have a melee weapon in hand to take an attack of opportunity. Vradin
D4rkchylde 11-14-03, 09:59 PM	Ok thank you.
Fixxxer 11-14-03, 09:59 PM	Technically speaking, character B isn't provoking an AoO at all. If character A has a bow in his hand and character B is standing 5ft away, drops his pants, does a little dance and quaffs a Potion of Evergrowing Phallus(tm), he is technically not provoking an attack of opportunity. I realize that it seems like it's just semantics, but by the very definition of AoO, the opponent must have a weapon which can make an AoO for you to provoke one. This splitting of hairs really doesn't mean much at almost any time, but there's occasionally going to be one PrC or one crafty rules lawyer that will try to devise a way for him to drop his bow and draw his sword in enough time for him to capitalize on that AoO. At that time, it's important that you know that the offending opponent didn't provoke an AoO at all. However, to put things very simply, unless the attacker has levels in a PrC or a feat that allows him to use a ranged weapon to make AoO, he cannot make one without a melee weapon.
green_yawgmoth 11-14-03, 10:03 PM	It's spelled "Phallus". :D
D4rkchylde 11-14-03, 10:12 PM	The reason I asked is because a few bandits ran screaming towards my PCs who all had Boys (stinking elves) and they wanted to know if they got AoO's since they were running in range of the missile weapons, similar to running within five feet of a longsword wielding Man. I just started DnD and I'm not yet familiar with the rules so I said I'd check it out here. Likewise a bandit spellcaster was casting a spell within Longbow range and they wanted to know if he provoke an AoO as well. But I see what you mean about Semantics now. Thanks
Fixxxer 11-14-03, 10:32 PM	In that case, bare in mind, also, that you don't provoke an AoO against someone who is using a spell UNLESS the spell itself is a weapon and it already active. What I mean by this is that if you already have Shocking Grasp active, you can make an AoO on anyone who provokes you. However, if someone walks through what would normally be your melee threat range, you can't whip out a Burning Hands spell on them. Note also that I don't believe you can make at AoO unarmed when you're using a weapon. I can't locate the source I got this from (right now), but I'm pretty sure that if you're holding a bow, you can't cry foul and make an AoO by kicking someone as they walk by (however, that's perfectly acceptible if you're fighting unarmed). As I said, I can't locate the source for this right now, but I know I've seen it.
Inigo Carmine 11-14-03, 10:44 PM	AoOs aren't "free" attacks just because someone let their gaurd down, they're attacks that were going on behind the scenes anyways, but now they just have a chance of actually getting through enemy defenses. Melee: When you're in melee combat, you're swinging your sword more times than you're rolling the dice. You're not swinging once and then standing there for 6 seconds until your next turn. it's a constant barrage of attacks, feints, parries, blocks, etc. In DnD terms, you "Threaten" the area around you. As you get better, you have a better chance of landing more hits (high bab = more attacks per round). BUT...if an opponent does something stupid right in front of you (like drink a potion) that attack that normally wouldn't have gotten through his defenses now has a good chance of doing so (extra attack at your highest BAB). It's not an "extra" attack flavor wise. This is why AoOs don't make sense for ranged attacks. Your BAB (+ feats like rapid shot) represent the actual number of attacks you are making. You roll for 2 shots with your bow, you lose 2 arrows from your quiver. This represent the fastest that your character can get retrieve an arrow, knock it, aim at something and loose it. It makes no sense that you can suddenly get faster and shoot more arrows because someone 30 ft away sheathed their sword. Therefore, no AoO with a ranged weapon. Heh..combine that with combat reflexes (and archers usually have high dex) and it would get stupid silly. Any lvl 1 joe schmoe can do a circus act. "Watch as the amazing Joe archer fires 5 accurate shots from his bow in 6 seconds." But for some reason you can only do it if Bob stands 20 feet away and drinks a beer, Carl throws knives at a target, right next to you Jane stands up from prone, etc...
David777 11-15-03, 06:46 AM	doesn't using a ranged weapon provoke an attack of opportuinity? and if so doesn't that mean that 2 archers shooting at each other from across the room would get opportuinity attacks? now thats just silly
David777 11-15-03, 06:57 AM	from the players handbook. page 122 Threatened Area: You threaten the area into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not you action. Generally, that's everything within 5 feet of you in any direction. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
ksbsnowowl 11-15-03, 06:08 PM	Originally posted by Inigo Carmine This is why AoOs don't make sense for ranged attacks. Your BAB (+ feats like rapid shot) represent the actual number of attacks you are making. You roll for 2 shots with your bow, you lose 2 arrows from your quiver. This represent the fastest that your character can get retrieve an arrow, knock it, aim at something and loose it. It makes no sense that you can suddenly get faster and shoot more arrows because someone 30 ft away sheathed their sword. Therefore, no AoO with a ranged weapon. Heh..combine that with combat reflexes (and archers usually have high dex) and it would get stupid silly. Any lvl 1 joe schmoe can do a circus act. Funny thing is, there is a character that can do exactly that. The Peerless Archer PrC from 'Silver Marches' (a FR campaign accessory) grants the ability to treat your bow as a 10' reach weapon for the puroses of AoO. However, the soonest that one can get to the PrC's 8th level in order to get that ability is at 15th character level. Under 3.0 rules, an archer that has 6 levels of Order of the Bow Initiate and 8 levels of Peer Arch with a dex of 24 could theoretically fire off 18 arrows in one round (with the help of Haste). Of course, only 11 of them could be aimed at one opponent. The other 7 would have to be aimed at 7 other enemies who happen to provoke AoO's.
D4rkchylde 11-15-03, 08:50 PM	Wow, I've learned a lot here and to think thi is my first question combat. I have much to learn, I've only Dmed three sessions so far and all of are new to DnD... this is a bit daunting. Thanks again though I really appreciate and need the help.
Fixxxer 11-16-03, 01:12 AM	Originally posted by David777 doesn't using a ranged weapon provoke an attack of opportuinity? and if so doesn't that mean that 2 archers shooting at each other from across the room would get opportuinity attacks? No, using a ranged weapon does not provoke an AoO. Using a ranged weapon while you're standing in melee range of an opponent who has the means to attack you provokes an AoO, but only from him. In addition, you cannot make an AoO with a ranged weapon (excepting for some very special PrCs). Lastly, if I remember correctly, you cannot provoke an AoO by doing something that provokes an AoO. For instance, if your opponent tries to trip you, it provokes an AoO. You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs. As a result, I believe that the ruling is that if used as an AoO, an attack that provokes an AoO under normal circumstances doesn't provoke an AoO. I can't find a location for this information, so it's possible that I'm incorrect, but I don't think I am.
Whaledawg 11-16-03, 04:09 PM	You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs. As a result, I believe that the ruling is that if used as an AoO, an attack that provokes an AoO under normal circumstances doesn't provoke an AoO That's wrong. I used the same argument in a thread last year, I believe about punching someone with an AoO and someone pulled out the SRD on me. However that was 3.0, so they might have fixed it now. Now I just call them case by case. I'll let a PC trip with an AoO but not grapple, etc. It's so much easier then trying to figure out what they intended with the rules in the middle of combat.
Blue Knight1982 11-16-03, 05:22 PM	The closest thing I could find about not being able to make attack of opportunities is just in the case of unarmed attacks, but I think it makes sense for all attacks of opportunity... Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before you attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, as shooting a bow does, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. You provoke the attack of opportunity because you have to bring your body close to your opponent. Though if it was during one of my games, they could use their bow as a melee weapon and thump them over the head with it.
the_heart 11-17-03, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Lastly, if I remember correctly, you cannot provoke an AoO by doing something that provokes an AoO. For instance, if your opponent tries to trip you, it provokes an AoO. You decide to use a trip attack for your AoO, but that would provoke an AoO, which could possibly result in an infinate amount of AoOs. stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO?
Fixxxer 11-17-03, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by the_heart stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO? As I understand it, any attack action that can be used as a normal attack and does not involve any movement can be used as an AoO. Rules guys, this is correct, correct?
Inigo Carmine 11-17-03, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by the_heart stupid question, i thought AoO provoked an attack, and only an attack. can you really choose to use a special maneuver like trip as an AoO? There's a chart in the combat chapter with all the different actions you can take (page 128 in 3.0, not sure what it is in 3.5). At the very bottom of that chart it has disarm, grapple and trip, all with a little superscript. The superscript reads something to the effect of "May be done multiple times in a full attack action, or even as an AoO". The table from the SRD doesn't copy well, so I won't try and post it here, but you're welcome to look it up yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf) The relevant part of the chart is at the top of page 6.
the_heart 11-18-03, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Inigo Carmine There's a chart in the combat chapter with all the different actions you can take (page 128 in 3.0, not sure what it is in 3.5). At the very bottom of that chart it has disarm, grapple and trip, all with a little superscript. The superscript reads something to the effect of "May be done multiple times in a full attack action, or even as an AoO". The table from the SRD doesn't copy well, so I won't try and post it here, but you're welcome to look it up yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf) The relevant part of the chart is at the top of page 6. many thanks. never looked to closely at that before. opens up many nasty new options :smirk: