Post/Author/DateTime	Post
orionm42 08-10-05, 04:43 PM	Don’t ask me why, because I have no idea, but a player in my group wants pure gold full plate armor (perhaps I have been handing out too much treasure lately :D ). I initially explained to him that pure gold is soft (so it wouldn’t provide much protection) and dense (so it would be heavier than standard armor), but he insists on it. So, I am putting together some stats for pure gold full plate. However, I’m an accountant (i.e. a numbers geek) and I’m long removed from my high school chemistry and physics classes. So I figured I would turn to more scholarly DMs for advice. Here is what I’m thinking. First, from the limited research I have done, pure gold is approximately 2.5 times as dense as standard iron or steel (which, I assume, is what the armor in Chapter 7 of the PHB is made of). As such, pure gold full plate armor of the same thickness as standard armor would weigh 125 lbs. (this guy only has a strength score of 18, so I have no idea why he would want to encumber himself like that, but that is another story). Second, again from preliminary research, pure gold has a harness on the Vickers scale of 25 versus a hardness of 98 for cold drawn low carbon steel (note that pure iron has a Vickers hardness of 150). Table 9-9 in the PHB assigns a hardness of 10 to iron or steel. As such, I would estimate pure gold armor would have a hardness between 2 and 3; i.e. similar to leather or hide. As such, I was going to go with a hardness of 2, an armor bonus of +3, and 15 hit points (per table 9-8). Because pure gold full plate is so heavy and restricting, I was going to assign a maximum dexterity bonus of 0, an armor check penalty of -8, and an arcane spell failure chance of 45%. Speed would be reduced to 20 feet (from the PC’s standard movement rate of 30 ft.), and he could only run at triple his normal speed. With respect to cost, I am assuming he is going to hire someone to melt down some gold coins to make the armor. As there are 50 gold pieces per pound (PHB page 112), and as his armor would weigh 125 lbs., cost would be a minimum of 6250 gp based on weight alone. However, he is looking for pure gold, so I would say a craftsman would need to melt twice as many ordinary coins to obtain the desired quantity of pure gold. So now we are at about 12,500 gp, without labor. With labor, I’m thinking a cost of about 13,000 gold pieces would be about right. Also, I am wondering if I should assign some bonus or penalty to certain types of damage say, for example, from electricity. However, I have no idea how well or poorly gold conducts electricity, so I need a little help here. Also, as gold doesn’t rust, I’ll grant 100% resistance to spells like rusting grasp. Anything else you can think of? Any changes? Thanks for your help!!
clarkvalentine 08-10-05, 04:51 PM	Gold is an excellent conductor, which means the armor (if designed properly) it could acta as a faraday cage, which would protect the wearer from electricity. Maybe. EDIT: Of course, steel armor also conducts, and it doesn't act to protect the wearer from electricity in-game, so take that with a grain of salt. In reality, gold would make miserable armor. Terrible. Atrocious. But, this is a game. Consider letting him have his way, as long as he's willing to have it enchanted (equivalent to a +1 or +2, maybe) to make it light enough and hard enough to be functional.
Ravenseye 08-10-05, 04:59 PM	Sounds like you've done your homework. I would definately add penalties for electrical and anything heat based like fire. Gold is a very very good conductor which is one reason that it's used in electronics frequently. Also as far as the gold content you're lining up the coins as 12 carat. I guess it depends on what your world is like. By the middle ages in Europe gold coins were about 6 carats, though when introduced in Rome they were about 22 carats. What your world is, where it is, where the player is....I think would make a difference. Not all gold coins have the same amount of gold. Also think about smelting costs. Material costs of the gold is one thing, but it woudl cost additional money to smelt it down and refine it to pure gold and then bang it out. Security expenses as well to protect all the gold in one place, etc. Definately a penalty against electircal and heat based attacks.
20goingon1232 08-10-05, 05:02 PM	Sounds like you've done your homework. I would definately add penalties for electrical and anything heat based like fire. Gold is a very very good conductor which is one reason that it's used in electronics frequently. Also as far as the gold content you're lining up the coins as 12 carat. I guess it depends on what your world is like. By the middle ages in Europe gold coins were about 6 carats, though when introduced in Rome they were about 22 carats. What your world is, where it is, where the player is....I think would make a difference. Not all gold coins have the same amount of gold. Also think about smelting costs. Material costs of the gold is one thing, but it woudl cost additional money to smelt it down and refine it to pure gold and then bang it out. Security expenses as well to protect all the gold in one place, etc. Definately a penalty against electircal and heat based attacks. Heat yes, electricity no. If anything, it would give him a BONUS vs electricity. A good conductor that is touching the ground or water will conduct that electricity AWAY from you.
He Who Lurks 08-10-05, 05:08 PM	Instead of re-inventing the wheel, why not just offer your character a way to make armor that looks like it's gold, but actually is made of standard old-fashioned steel or whatever? After all, what possible reason could a person have for wanting gold armor other than vanity? It would absolutely suck as armor in every conceivable way. It would weigh a ton and a butter-knife wielded by an angry 10-year-old could penetrate it. A new material (call it Aurum or something, yes I know that's just Latin) that has all the normal properties of steel but looks like gold and costs a bit more would work well here.
Draktaven 08-10-05, 05:12 PM	I find this all very funny. Golden armor, way back in history was considered oppulance on the battle field and looked down apon. When he dies...you should use this qoute from the Iliad, but you know change the names around so it fits your setting. "Nomions flambyant son. Nastes strolled to battle decked in gold like a girl, The fool! None of his trappings kept off grisly death- down he went, crushed by racing Achilles hands, destroyed at the ford where battle hard Achilles stripped his gold away" seriously change Achilles to who ever killed him and change Nastes to your players name...it will be funny.
john53704 08-10-05, 05:18 PM	I would say, handle the electrical resistance / susceptibility the same as with other metal armor. Granted, gold is a better conductor than steel - but both will conduct electricity. The game handles electrical damage, concerning special bonuses or penalties based on whether the material is a conductor (metal) or an insulator (leather). The shades of difference between an excellent conductor (gold), or a moderate conductor (iron) are negligible compared to an insulator (leather). While you might be able to find some gray areas based on special materials within the game, you have to factor your research time into the effort. I would say that you have already done the homework necessary to base you game mechanics decisions, and applaud your efforts. One other thing, with gold being so soft, unless he has it magically treated in some fashion, keep in mind that after one or two battles the armor should be quite comparable in function and appearance to a crushed aluminum can.
Pyritefoolsgold 08-10-05, 05:22 PM	Did you offer to let him have maybe gold PLATED armor instead? All the style, none of the crap! There's also the fact that if anyone ever attacks him with a lot of fire, he gets melted alive in a suit of gold.
Kes Alanadel 08-10-05, 06:03 PM	In "Magic of Faerun" on pg 179 is a listing for gold armor, that must be magically refined and treated which means that your player would/may have to find a wizard with the craft magic arms and armor feat :D Magically treated gold armor has the following properites: Grants acid and fire resistance 2 Gold armor is one category heavier than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations (ie:barb fast movement) Spell failure for armor and shields increase by 10% Max. dex. is decreased by 2 (which may bring it below zero) Armor check penalties are increased by 3 market price for armour is +5000 gp The book also has stats for weapons, but you asked about armor :)
Duration_10_Rounds 08-10-05, 08:15 PM	"Hardness" is not a good measure of how well it would protect flesh. Playdo is soft, glass is hard... put a sheet of each on the palm of your hand(one after the other) and hit them with a hammer... which do you feel less?... Or if you dont want to get glass in your hand put a biscuit tin on your head and hit it with a hammer.. then take a chunk of playdo, place on your head and repeat. Yes Gold will "give" under a mace blow but that is much better than it holding its form and having the mace spikes punch through and hit soft flesh. If your still alive..... look into why some cars are built to stratigicaly crumple on high speed impact ... The collapse takes kinetic energy away from the soft little you inside the car. If the car had a solid carbon steel frame the force of a 120 mph crash would wash over you like you where the middle ball in a newtons cradle, and mess your soft insides up... Soft armour is good vs impact but you need hardness vs slashing... but gold is dense enough to also resists slashing..... but its sooooo heavy you just couldnt use it. OK at 18 str he can carry half a ton or whatever but remember on a hot day during a long walk he can dump his backpack, take a breather, and carry on.... full plate is not somthing you can just shrugg off and take a breather. If he REALLY wants it make it +14 & DR 2/Magical, Give him a -20ft on his movement & Swim, -10 on his ref and armor check (on all but swimming), his strenght is temporary lowered by 2 as he expends so much force to move in his huge n heavy armour and its so soft he needs to do expensive repairs at the end of each adventure..... then be happy he wont be asking for any more stupid crap any time soon. He will proabably have left it on the other side of a river, at the bottom of a rope, top of a tower, etc before he gets through one adventure in it. :D
YRM 08-11-05, 07:30 AM	Attention physics and chemistry geeks :o ) ...help needed! You game to a D&D Gaming board to find geeks? I'm insulted.
High Octane 08-11-05, 08:30 AM	You game to a D&D Gaming board to find geeks? I'm insulted. We're not geeks, we're NERDS damn it! Seriously, Your friend is asking for the worst kind of armor ever made. Unless you made aror out of tissue paper, but even then at least you wouldnt have such obscene armor check penalties. If the player wanted it for show though, say for a diplomatic reason, then might I suggest white gold? Its not as heavy.
The Philosopher King 08-11-05, 08:56 AM	Heh. I'm put in mind of the Second Samnite War, when those crazy Samnites marched out against Rome in gold and silver armour, only to realise that Romans in iron (maybe even steel by then, can't remember) were a) more effective and b) laughing at them. They also had lots of pretty gold and silver armour to hang on their temple walls when they got back to Rome (and washed the blood off) I'd let him have it, with pretty much the stats you've got, and then have every thief and even mildly greedy person in a mile radius start to hone in. I mean, sure magical stuff might be worth more, but it may not look it, and even if it does, people will think twice before trying to rob the guy with the glowing helm and flaming sword. The guy with so much money he's made ineffective armour out of it on the other hand...
Morka 08-11-05, 09:20 AM	The Gold Armor from Magic of Faerun is summarized in Crystal Keep, 3.0 equipment section (see link in my sig), as well as many other special construction. I find the drawbacks really heavy for the benefit it gives (only +2 Resistance fire and acid). Unless you add some circumstance bonus to Charisma checks vs nobles... But also check for a golden magically tempered weapon, there is much more benefit. The weapon damage increase by one category (d4 -> d6, etc), the weapon size increase by one category. However, you need to spend an Exotic Weapon proeficiency, and you can't use Weapon Finesse on a Golden Weapon. The price is +1500 gp for a d3 weapon, +2500 gp for a d4 % d6 weapon, or +7000 gp for a larger weapon.
Serielle 08-11-05, 10:28 AM	I wouldn't give a penalty to heat or electric attacks in gold plate. A naked person takes as much damage from a fireball as someone in iron plate, so it doesn't make sense to make a distinction between iron and gold when one doesn't exist between anything else you're wearing.
orionm42 08-11-05, 10:40 AM	We're not geeks, we're NERDS damn it!... Speak for yourself..I'm a geek and proud of it!! :D Thanks to everyone for their input. I wasn't aware of the Magic of Faerun description of gold armor, but it sounds like I was on the right track (special thanks to Kes Alanadel and Morka for the reference). I assume this would be for standard gold armor. I think I will increase the cost a bit for making it out of pure gold. Also, as I thought about it a little more last night, I may want to provide some benefit for a highly polished finish (possibly a dazzling or mild reflecting effect). Again, I can't imagine why he wants it. I agree it would not be worth the expenditure, but it might in fact only be for show. Otherwise, he may want to do some form of "bonding ritual" with it per DMG II (I think that's what it's called). Thanks again. And Draktaven, I'm definitely saving that quote!! :evillaugh
UltimateReality 08-11-05, 02:51 PM	Seriously, Your friend is asking for the worst kind of armor ever made. Unless you made aror out of tissue paper, but even then at least you wouldnt have such obscene armor check penalties.Gnome twistcloth armor, baby. :cool:
Sinaz 08-11-05, 03:39 PM	Offer him a helmet made out of a fine Waterford Crystal goblet as an accessory!
orionm42 08-11-05, 03:48 PM	Offer him a helmet made out of a fine Waterford Crystal goblet as an accessory! I'm just waiting for him to buy the matching tower shield. When he does, I'll make sure all my bbegs know ray of enfeeblement. :smirk:
Palin the Wizard 08-11-05, 03:58 PM	Pure gold offers about as much protection as putting on an armor made of clay. Nothing. Any sort of force will cause it to break.
Sinaz 08-11-05, 04:08 PM	Pure gold offers about as much protection as putting on an armor made of clay. Nothing. Any sort of force will cause it to break. Fresh clay or baked clay? Would it be glazed? ... :P
Sapp 08-11-05, 04:22 PM	If you really wanted to get technical, there is a possibility that gold WILL give a penalty against fire and electrical attacks. 1. A fireball will do more damage to a man in gold armor than a naked man because skin is not a good conductor of heat compared to gold. Why does this matter? Heat from the fireball won't store as quickly into flesh as it will into gold. The heat will blister the flesh or cook it, offering even more protection against the heat. The heat will pass immediately after the fireball spell has been cast. End of that. Gold on the other hand will soak up the heat like a tissue soaking up water. The heat will stay until ALL of it is absorbed by the flesh, long after the effects of the fireball have been diminished. 2. Anyone who's an electrical engineer who has had a chance to compare weak and strong resistors will know that there's no comparison. Materials with low resistance fire up faster than *****es in heat. For example, given a rubber suit of armor, electrical attacks won't even pass through. No heat increase in the resistor. Iron ore? Slightly better, but won't heat up as much as gold. The current from electrical attacks will pass through the gold very quickly, and probably won't shock the individual (that would be the same with nearly ANY armor, because flesh is not a great conductor compared to most metals) BUT the electricity might pass through gold armor so quickly that it heats the Gold up to the point that it melts onto the skin, burning the wearer of the armor. So despite the common opinion of the posters of this thread, there's a good chance gold armor would give penalties against fire and electricity attacks.
clarkvalentine 08-11-05, 04:35 PM	Gold on the other hand will soak up the heat like a tissue soaking up water. The heat will stay until ALL of it is absorbed by the flesh, long after the effects of the fireball have been diminished. No, much of it will be re-radiated and convected off the external surface. And besides, even if not, it won't matter if its temperature just doesn't get high enough to burn - gold has a high thermal capacitance, meaning it takes a lot of energy to warm it up. Thought experiment: If you were standing in n front of a blast furnace, would you prefer to have a sheet of metal between you and it, or just your naked skin? For example, given a rubber suit of armor, electrical attacks won't even pass through. Not sure I buy that. Lightning strikes electrical resistors too - in fact it's generally more attracted to them, as they build up an attractive cahrge better. And if you get hit, you want that faraday cage around you, not a big insulator that will just redirect the charge into your nice saltwater body. That being said, this is fantasy physics we're talking about, so I'm just talking out of my proverbial @$!!. In-game, go with what strains suspension of disbelief the least or matches genre conventions the best.
Sapp 08-11-05, 04:46 PM	No, much of it will be re-radiated and convected off the external surface. And besides, even if not, it won't matter if its temperature just doesn't get high enough to burn - gold has a high thermal capacitance, meaning it takes a lot of energy to warm it up. Thought experiment: If you were standing in n front of a blast furnace, would you prefer to have a sheet of metal between you and it, or just your naked skin? That's true. It does have a high thermal capacitance due to its mass. But I don't buy the thought experiment. There's a difference between having a sheet of metal between you and a blast of heat. Mind you, this is not an explosion. No sonic damage. Just a quick burst of heat. Perhaps some gases in the air ignited, but not enough for an explosion. Would you rather be struck with this quick burst of heat which might char your skin and do 6d6 damage? Or be stuck suffocating in skalding hot armor? Not sure I buy that. Lightning strikes electrical resistors too - in fact it's generally more attracted to them, as they build up an attractive cahrge better. And if you get hit, you want that faraday cage around you, not a big insulator that will just redirect the charge into your nice saltwater body. Please don't confuse the others. Electrical charge doesn't hurt ANYONE unless you're talking about millions of volts of potential above the norm, to the point that the atoms in your body are all ionized and turn radical. It's the electrical current that kills. (EDIT: Because it's the current, not the charge, that generates heat. Well... actually to be honest, it's not really the heat that kills either... but hey... it's fantasy, and we really don't need to get into medical reasons why electricity affects the heart. Haha.) That being said, this is fantasy physics we're talking about, so I'm just talking out of my proverbial @$!!. In-game, go with what strains suspension of disbelief the least or matches genre conventions the best. Yes, true... but the OP wanted to incorporate more science in to his game. So more power to him. Haha.
clarkvalentine 08-11-05, 05:06 PM	Or be stuck suffocating in skalding hot armor? I guess this is what I'm disputing - I'm not certain I buy that it WILL be scalding hot. Toasty warm, maybe, but it takes a lot of energy to heat up a dense metal like gold. It's the electrical current that kills. Right, I'm aware of that. And I think you'd want the faraday cage - the conductor surrounding your body, providing the current a nice low-resistance path to ground that doesn't pass through roastable flesh and delicate nerves. This is why you're generally safe from lightning in a car (it has nothing to do with the rubber tires, despite the urban legend) - the steel frame directs current around you, not through you.
Tevish Szat 08-11-05, 05:10 PM	There are rules for gold armor and weapons in Magic of Faerun.
Sapp 08-11-05, 05:20 PM	I guess this is what I'm disputing - I'm not certain I buy that it WILL be scalding hot. Toasty warm, maybe, but it takes a lot of energy to heat up a dense metal like gold. Right, I'm aware of that. And I think you'd want the faraday cage - the conductor surrounding your body, providing the current a nice low-resistance path to ground that doesn't pass through roastable flesh and delicate nerves. This is why you're generally safe from lightning in a car (it has nothing to do with the rubber tires, despite the urban legend) - the steel frame directs current around you, not through you. Isn't that the same with iron armor though? Either way, the current won't be passing through your body. With gold, however, I think there would be more initial heat, because the current would be greater... but perhaps, as you say, not enough to warm such a dense metal. Anyway, I guess one of us must be over- or under-estimating the amount of energy from a lightning bolt or fireball. If either of these spells can overcome the thermal capacitance (even partially), I'd say the wearer is screwed (even more so than if he wasn't wearing any armor at all). If not, then maybe it will merely be just "toasty warm" as you say. Either way, it's hard to argue without the exact numbers. Haha.
AntiDjinn 08-11-05, 05:22 PM	You are almost certainly going to have to use magic or some fantasy alloy to make gold armor workable. Real world gold would be a disaster as full plate mail. Gold is very heavy, if you have ever tried walking in steel platemail, imagine multiplying the weight by 2.5-3X. You will be hit by shots that could have missed if you had not been so encumbered. Don't fall into water because you are going straight to the bottom. Don't try to carry much treasure or other gear because the weigth of your plate probably uses of most of your carrying capacity. Gold is soft. Anyone have a 24 carat ring that they have worn for year? Notice that is isn't perfectly circular anymore? It has comformed to the shape of your finger and also probably has some scratches from day to day wear, and we aren't even talking about weapon hits. Gold is maleable enough that once smelted it can be worked even by cold hammering. A gold breast plate that takes a hit from a mace is going to cave in easily, but unlike aluminum the dent wont just pop back out on its own; this is going to be a problem when you try to inhale again.
LCD2YOU 08-11-05, 05:42 PM	You game to a D&D Gaming board to find geeks? I'm insulted.Darn tooten there bud! I'm a N.E.R.D. not a geek. Speak for yourself..I'm a geek and proud of it!! :D Network Emergency Repair Dude
orionm42 08-11-05, 06:13 PM	Network Emergency Repair Dude You wouldn't happen to work for geeksquad, would you? :D Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously, though, I hope you and YRM weren't really offended by the title of this thread. It wasn't in any way intended to be insulting and I apologize if it was.
Aurotuli 08-11-05, 08:27 PM	One idea I've played with is that Mithril is a "truer" silver, a more perfect silver. Perhaps, if that is true, there is also an equivalent for gold. Have your PC - who is likely being laughed at by every honest* armorsmith he tries to petition for the project - hear a rumor about a gold-like substance similar to mithril, but a little heavier (say only half as much weight reduction as mithril) and a little bit harder. However, the substance is remarkably rarer. The last time it was seen in this part of the world was centuries ago. But there are rumors that is is a little more common in the west (east, south, whatever). That could be the start of an interesting quest. * (Dishonest ones might like the idea of working with that much gold, alone, for long periods of time, etc.)
YRM 08-11-05, 08:55 PM	You wouldn't happen to work for geeksquad, would you? :D Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously, though, I hope you and YRM weren't really offended by the title of this thread. It wasn't in any way intended to be insulting and I apologize if it was. There was no need to say that. I'm very hard to offend. I'm also a geek but not geeky enough to help you with your question. Your post was not offensive at all, and I was kidding. I was also relieved that, at least in this thread, people realized I was joking. Phew. Great post.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-11-05, 10:14 PM	One idea I've played with is that Mithril is a "truer" silver, a more perfect silver. Perhaps, if that is true, there is also an equivalent for gold. Have your PC - who is likely being laughed at by every honest* armorsmith he tries to petition for the project - hear a rumor about a gold-like substance similar to mithril, but a little heavier (say only half as much weight reduction as mithril) and a little bit harder. However, the substance is remarkably rarer. The last time it was seen in this part of the world was centuries ago. But there are rumors that is is a little more common in the west (east, south, whatever). That could be the start of an interesting quest. * (Dishonest ones might like the idea of working with that much gold, alone, for long periods of time, etc.) Best reply yet! it provides a plot hook for an enitre adventure and it panders to a characters annoying demands :D And when he gets his true gold... rob him and there's another adventure rught there ;)
Sapp 08-11-05, 10:31 PM	His demands may seem annoying... but I kind of like the demand. It shows an interest in his character beyond "stats". He obviously doesn't care about combat efficiency (he's not a munchkin), and actually cares about his appearance. That's more than I can say for many players I know who don't bother with their descriptions and appearance. "What are you wearing?" --- "Breastplate." "That only covers your upper body..." --- "Yeah... so?" "So what are you wearing underneath?" --- "If I had the gold for that, I'd be wearing full-plate wouldn't I?" ...