Attention-craving player [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attention-craving player [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MortalPlague
11-07-04, 04:11 AM I'll apologize in advance if this turns into a rant, but I'll try to stay objective.

My brother is becoming a real problem player.

It started several months ago in the middle of a campaign. He started to complain about how he got less experience. So I leaned towards rewarding and noticing his efforts a little more, and eventually, he passed the others. A mistake on my part, to let his complaints influence my DM'ing, but it was by no means grievous. His character wound up ahead by about 500 at level 8, and the party regularly fought tough things that gave ample chances for them to catch up.

He started to roll his dice on the floor, on a particularly bouncy ledge. I asked him not to roll there, and he threw a fit about it. The entire session ground to a halt because he would not stop rolling his dice there, and when I told him his rolls defaulted to ones, he wouldn't stop whining long enough for me to DM.

I confronted him about it later, and he told me that he was frustrated because one of the other players was getting much more attention that him. I told him it was because of in character reasons- the player had killed the BBEG's father, and was the one with the price on his head, but he refused to listen. He was ****** off that the campaign seemed to be revolving around that player.

This ugly side of him rears up every now and then during play, and it's very disruptive. Every time his character ends up in trouble, or gets some sort of penalty, he complains. He whines and whines, grinding gameplay to a halt.

To give you an idea, this last session, he was fighting a gnoll with PC levels. The party was a part of a camp in the woodlands, and they'd fought some gnolls earlier. The party: one L2 wizard, one L1 barbarian (with the worst luck with dice I've ever seen; he'd just been created that session, critically missed his first attack and was critically hit on the first attack against him, fell into negatives three times, and finally managed his first hit in his third combat), and my brother, with a L2 wizard Evoker specialist, with the Spellgifted trait from the Unearthed Arcana (casts evocation spells one level higher, all other spells one level lower). Basically, they had killed off some regular gnolls, and there was one gnoll carrying an orcish double-axe 120 feet off in the woods. The barbarian decides to advance, despite having 3 hit points (by that point he had pretty much given up on his character). My brother's wizard decides to follow.

About 120 feet away from any help, the wizard and barbarian engage the gnoll, who, as it turns out, is blind. At least, he has a bloody bandage across his eyes. He engages the barbarian, manages to hit him, and drop him to negatives. The wizard decides to try and take him out on his own. :mymy:

He casts burning hands, and I rolled the save in the open. The DC was 16, and the NPC rolls an 11. He'd already demonstrated a +2 for his dexterity on the initiative roll, so an additional +3 reflex for class levels isn't even remotely far-fetched. But he gawks, and stops the entire game for two minutes, whining that the gnoll saved on an 11.

The gnoll steps up, hits him for 7 damage, nearly killing him. The wizard makes a full round retreat, complaining the whole time. The gnoll takes the poor barbarian's head (Puts the poor character out of his misery), and then made good his retreat. Shouting out that he'll return with more levels, the wizard decides to try and kill the NPC gnoll with some magic missiles. The gnoll had taken a total of 7 damage from everything thus far, so it was truly a waste of a spell. But he did it anyway. This wouldn't bother me other than the abject metagaming. I tried to tell him not to metagame, but he just denied the claim.

He then returns, and I handed out equal xp to him and the other wizard, who'd spotted the threat, and hidden for most of the combat, other than putting one of the gnolls to sleep. The reason? Smart tactical thinking. He sent for backup, took cover, and used a full round to try and find all the enemies, and then pointed them out to his allies. Even though the other used more spells and took more risks, he just wasn't very smart or effective in his combat.

Well, my brother complained about this, and I warned him several times that I was going to kill his character if he didn't stop whining. We had a long argument about things, where he complained that the other wizard had more to do during the down time, and I explained to him that it was because the other player bothered to rp and make friends and connections. My brother complained that he didn't want to rp, so I told him that if he wasn't going to rp, he shouldn't expect his character to have much to do in downtime. I warned him on three seperate occasions that I'd kill off his character. He didn't stop, so I had Gregor, a powerul bard and commander of the camp have a vision of my brother being the key to his enemy's victory, so he drove him from his camp.

Normally, I really hate to let out of character stuff influence in character actions, but my brother was being so disruptive that it was ruining the game for everyone. I still don't like the situation- I resent having to do this, but it's been several months, where nearly every game he spends whining. At the slightest penalty applied to his roll for circumstances, or the fact that an NPC hits him, or the fact that an NPC makes a save, or the fact that anyone gets treasure or experience where he doesn't, he'll go into a fit of whining. I really don't know what to do with him, because I really can't seem to get him to just sit and play anymore. He's been a part of our group for so long that it would be impossible to simply ban him from games, and he's actually been a good player some of the time. It's just that when things aren't centered on him, he just becomes a total arse.

Wow... probably the longest post I've ever made on these boards. Anyways, I hope you don't think I'm being a tyrant as a DM, but I do give him chances, I really do. He has his moments of glory, but if he doesn't care to rp, he's not going to get the benefits associated with it.
DivineHammer
11-07-04, 08:09 AM This is simple.
Either a) kick his *** and tell him to quit whining. or b) tell him to get lost because he's ruining the fun of the game.

Just because he's your brother doesn't mean you have to put up with his crap.
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-07-04, 08:35 AM We all had players like this...so your not alone. Some people just whine and cry, that's the way they are.

BT
tompulsar
11-07-04, 08:37 AM Stomp a mudhole in the punk...show him who's the boss. ;)
Oompa
11-07-04, 09:08 AM Indeed.. make sure he understands that he stops whining or you'll quit or kick his arse out.. or turn the table... talk to the other player(s) that you are going to do.. and when he does anything you whine to him.. when he ask's what's up, tell him that this acting is how he is... show him how he his..
Neerie
11-07-04, 09:29 AM Tell him that he should play video games instead, the ones you can save and reload after screwing up :noway:
twoDtwenty
11-07-04, 10:26 AM You need a wooden cutout of Elminster (or another appropriately overpowered magic using NPC) displaying one of those "You must display this level of maturity to ride this ride" signs. It looks to me like your brother could use some serious growing up and development of some interpersonal skills before he tries to tackle any more multiplayer games. If the concept of growing up throws him into a temper tantrum as well, you could always gag him and leave him in a closet until the game is over. If hes as disruptive as it looks none of the other players will mind losing his character, or playing it in proxy for a few sessions.
MortalPlague
11-07-04, 11:28 AM It's a very frustrating thing, though. In previous campaigns, he's demonstrated some very good play- one where he played a bard in 2nd Ed was a great campaign, in a large part, due to his efforts. Also, in one of my other campaigns, when I was DM'ing him 1 on 1 initially, he was playing very well. Is there any way I could encourage him to bring his playstyle over into regular gameplay as well?
Jell_Moo
11-07-04, 11:34 AM First things first, no matter how immature he may act, do not threten to kill his character. That won't solve anything. All that will do is inspire him to create another character that's even more disruptive.

There are a few questions that may be relevant.

1) How old is your brother? For that matter, how old are you and the rest of the group?

2) What kind of experience do you, your brother, and the rest of the group have when it comes to D&D?

3) Do you and your brother have serious issues outside of gaming?

From what I can tell from your post, your brother seems to have 2 big problems.

1) He does not respect you or your authority as DM.

2) He feels the need to be the center of attention at all times.

Both are serious issues that are generally found in either young gamers, or new gamers. Either way, that sort of behavior is not acceptable. However, correcting this behavior as DM can be quite tricky. Threatening the player with character death, xp loss, treasure loss or anything of the sort is a bad idea. That will just cause more resentment, escalate the problem, and make the situation worse.

If I were you, this is what I'd do. Talk to him out of game. Explain to him that he has to tone it down. He is disrupting the game, and ruining the fun for everybody else. Explain that he cannot always be the center of attention, and that other party members have to have their moments to shine as well. Just because he doesn't shine in the social situations does not give him free reign to disrupt that part of the game.

Also explain that things aren't always going to go his way. BAd things will happen to his character, and so will good. Being belligerent and disrupting play every time something unfortunate happens is not fair to the rest of the group (who I assume do not do the same thing), and if they can deal with such things with a good level of maturity, then your brother should have the decency to do the same.

If he is not receptive to you, then you have to talk to the rest of the group about the situation. Find out how they feel, and see how bothered they are by this. Do not gang up on your brother with the group, that is a bad idea, just gauge the group to see how bothered they are by your brother's actions. It may be that they don't see the problem as being as big as you do. Ask the group to be a little more inclusive when it comes to social role playing, and try to include your brother in it a little more. Also, see if they can ask his character for advice, and try and make him feel useful.

Also, offer your brother the opportunity to change his character. It is possible he is being disruptive simply because he does not like the character he's playing. It happens to everybody. Offer him a new character of equal level and XP, and equal value of treasure. Maybe the wizard isn't working ou the way he wanted it to, and it's frustrating him. Don't penalize him for this, just allow him the opportunity to make a switch if he wants.

And finally, I would recommend one thing to you. Do not award XP in front of the players. If your brother is going to take exception to other players recieving XP for intelligent play, then it's not worth the fight. After the session is over, pass around slips of paper with the XP for the character on it. Or better yet, send an email to everybody telling the what XP they recieved. It may be that your brother is competitive in this are (I've seen that before), so trying to remove the competition can help.

Just try and take it easy, don't do anything rash, and you should be able to avoid hurt feelings and bruised egos. Do not cater to your brother's every whim, or allow him to think he's running the show, but try and find a nice middle ground. Don't be a jerk, but be firm on what sort of behavior you'll tolerate when you're running the show. Hoprfully, you guys can come to a nice resolution, and I wish you the best of luck.
Chronomodra
11-07-04, 02:47 PM As someone else said before, do not reward experience in front of players. All it accomplishes is make them wonder 'how come THEY got more than *I* did?'

And also, as someone else said, never threaten to punish the person in-game for their out of character actions. Instead, give exp bonuses to those players which get along and never complain about what happens. If your brother complains about favoritism towards those players, then you can simply respond, "Wouldn't you show favoritism to those that make your life easier instead of harder?"

The main thing that struck me was your brother saying 'I don't really feel like RPing'. People who don't want to RP just want to play the game for the game itself, the stats and rolls. Which means they are trying to 'win' the game, which isn't something you do in a role playing game. This is why when I start my campaigns, I always say beforehand that I'm looking for roleplayers, not roll-players.

That's the primary thing you could've done to prevent this: lay out your ground rules when the campaign starts to say that roleplaying will be encouraged, whining and trying to 'win' will not.

But it's too late for that, so we have to come up with solutions that will help you now. If you want to go the ironic route, you can have a session where it seems like his character is going to be the focus of the session, and then start whining every time one of your lowly monsters gets killed too quickly. Show him how much it delays the game to have someone complain about things not going their way (especially the DM.) If you want, have the other players join in too. But this solution will have just as much a chance of angering him as it does teaching him something.

If you want a solution that will encourage him but still not make everything go his way, give him the attention he seeks: but make it bad attention. Perhaps he is captured, and he has to escape on his own. Or maybe someone sends assassins to kill him. Whatever the reasoning behind it, he'll soon realize that 'attention' is not all it's cracked up to be. If he complians about it, tell him, "Well you weren't happy when I was picking on the player with a price on his head."

The main thing is to get him to realize that you're all there to have fun, and his complaining isn't making it fun. In fact, ask him what you could to allow him to have more fun. If he brings up the things he's whining about (not getting attention and being penalized for things), then ask him if he'd have fun if someone else was getting all the attention and not being penalized for things. No, he wouldn't, it would be favoritism.

Then the question for him to think about becomes: Why, then, does he ask you to show favoritism towards him?
MortalPlague
11-07-04, 04:28 PM I'm 19, turning 20 this month, and he just turned 18. We've been playing D&D for about 7 years, so it's a good long time; during that period, we actually started with a copy of first edition found at the local church fall fair (how's that for irony?), moved on to second edition, and upgraded to third edition when it came out (and 3.5, subsequently). Most of the other players are between 16 and 18. We've all been gaming for quite a while, and this problem has only manifested itself recently... the entire group, to be honest, is very xp competitive, and even if I give it out in secret, they try and find out how much the others have. :rolleyes:

As far as out of game, well, we're the two oldest brothers. It does tend to get abrasive at times, so that could be it. He usually does respect me as a DM, partly because I'm the only one in the group who's all that good at it and willing to do it, but lately, it's been slipping. I have talked with him out of game, but when he's being disruptive in-game, it's really an issue. He's done it as a fighter, as a ranger, and as a wizard. Playing the ranger, he was fine right up till he became a part of the group, and then the whole whining issue started up. Even though his character is more or less the primary character in that group, he still gets at it (though not as much as with the wizard).
Dungeon Master
11-07-04, 05:01 PM He's 18? :eek:

I thought you were going to say 12 or 13. Whining and complaining is no way for an adult to act and you should tell him that.
Talanall
11-07-04, 05:04 PM You could just award all of them the same XP each session. That's what the game assumes will happen, anyway, and if your players are so immature as to compete for XP, it will probably make your life as a DM a lot easier.
nekrolog
11-07-04, 05:13 PM He's 18? :eek:

I thought you were going to say 12 or 13. Whining and complaining is no way for an adult to act and you should tell him that.

But let's be realistic... adults whine and complain all the time. We just make it sound like rational arguing.
MortalPlague
11-07-04, 05:42 PM You could just award all of them the same XP each session. That's what the game assumes will happen, anyway, and if your players are so immature as to compete for XP, it will probably make your life as a DM a lot easier.

It's true, but I hate to just reward everyone equally when certain players and characters deserve much more. If one character spends the session making gutsy plans, landing several critical hits, and laying their life on the line while another just sits and cowers behind rocks, I don't think they deserve the same amount of experience.
Talanall
11-07-04, 05:46 PM It'll probably even out over the long run. Especially if you situate XP awards in a context along the lines of, "You want more XP? Learn to work together so you can handle the sorts of creatures that will earn you more XP."

From the little sketch you've shown us of how your players operate right now, I can confidently say that they'd be unlikely to last through a single combat encounter in my own campaigns. It sounds as if all of them tend to do their own thing in combat, rather than try to present a cohesive front to the enemy. Your brother just sounds like he's the worst of the lot with regard to refusing to watch out for anything but his own character.
MortalPlague
11-07-04, 06:15 PM True, they do their own thing, though they have enough of a mind for strategic thinking when it comes down to it. Particularly the player who decided to hang back. The barbarian player had pretty well given up on his character, and was throwing him into a daring combat as a sort of suicide. I don't know what my brother was doing though... :P
MageofMyth
11-08-04, 01:15 PM the entire group, to be honest, is very xp competitive, and even if I give it out in secret, they try and find out how much the others have. :rolleyes:

I have found that it is best to give everyone at a session the same amount of exp. This way they stay at the same level [except for death] and they don't act like twits to get more exp. They can't argue that player x received more than they did if everyone receives the same. Yes some times a particular player does more, but it evens out over the long run.

It sounds like you have become very frustrated with him, and perhaps should take a few weeks away from the game to calm down. If talking to him out of the game and away from wherever you play doesn't work then quit playing with him.
Ma'ElKoth
11-08-04, 09:17 PM Can you maybe convince him that getting the crap kicked out of his character is fun? DnD is about heroes, and for the most part no hero waltzes through to the end of the film or book without taking some hurting. I dunno... I always thought that taking the most damage was a badge of pride (I still don't like dying much though.) Have him watch Fight Club or something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MortalPlague 11-07-04, 04:11 AM	I'll apologize in advance if this turns into a rant, but I'll try to stay objective. My brother is becoming a real problem player. It started several months ago in the middle of a campaign. He started to complain about how he got less experience. So I leaned towards rewarding and noticing his efforts a little more, and eventually, he passed the others. A mistake on my part, to let his complaints influence my DM'ing, but it was by no means grievous. His character wound up ahead by about 500 at level 8, and the party regularly fought tough things that gave ample chances for them to catch up. He started to roll his dice on the floor, on a particularly bouncy ledge. I asked him not to roll there, and he threw a fit about it. The entire session ground to a halt because he would not stop rolling his dice there, and when I told him his rolls defaulted to ones, he wouldn't stop whining long enough for me to DM. I confronted him about it later, and he told me that he was frustrated because one of the other players was getting much more attention that him. I told him it was because of in character reasons- the player had killed the BBEG's father, and was the one with the price on his head, but he refused to listen. He was ****** off that the campaign seemed to be revolving around that player. This ugly side of him rears up every now and then during play, and it's very disruptive. Every time his character ends up in trouble, or gets some sort of penalty, he complains. He whines and whines, grinding gameplay to a halt. To give you an idea, this last session, he was fighting a gnoll with PC levels. The party was a part of a camp in the woodlands, and they'd fought some gnolls earlier. The party: one L2 wizard, one L1 barbarian (with the worst luck with dice I've ever seen; he'd just been created that session, critically missed his first attack and was critically hit on the first attack against him, fell into negatives three times, and finally managed his first hit in his third combat), and my brother, with a L2 wizard Evoker specialist, with the Spellgifted trait from the Unearthed Arcana (casts evocation spells one level higher, all other spells one level lower). Basically, they had killed off some regular gnolls, and there was one gnoll carrying an orcish double-axe 120 feet off in the woods. The barbarian decides to advance, despite having 3 hit points (by that point he had pretty much given up on his character). My brother's wizard decides to follow. About 120 feet away from any help, the wizard and barbarian engage the gnoll, who, as it turns out, is blind. At least, he has a bloody bandage across his eyes. He engages the barbarian, manages to hit him, and drop him to negatives. The wizard decides to try and take him out on his own. :mymy: He casts burning hands, and I rolled the save in the open. The DC was 16, and the NPC rolls an 11. He'd already demonstrated a +2 for his dexterity on the initiative roll, so an additional +3 reflex for class levels isn't even remotely far-fetched. But he gawks, and stops the entire game for two minutes, whining that the gnoll saved on an 11. The gnoll steps up, hits him for 7 damage, nearly killing him. The wizard makes a full round retreat, complaining the whole time. The gnoll takes the poor barbarian's head (Puts the poor character out of his misery), and then made good his retreat. Shouting out that he'll return with more levels, the wizard decides to try and kill the NPC gnoll with some magic missiles. The gnoll had taken a total of 7 damage from everything thus far, so it was truly a waste of a spell. But he did it anyway. This wouldn't bother me other than the abject metagaming. I tried to tell him not to metagame, but he just denied the claim. He then returns, and I handed out equal xp to him and the other wizard, who'd spotted the threat, and hidden for most of the combat, other than putting one of the gnolls to sleep. The reason? Smart tactical thinking. He sent for backup, took cover, and used a full round to try and find all the enemies, and then pointed them out to his allies. Even though the other used more spells and took more risks, he just wasn't very smart or effective in his combat. Well, my brother complained about this, and I warned him several times that I was going to kill his character if he didn't stop whining. We had a long argument about things, where he complained that the other wizard had more to do during the down time, and I explained to him that it was because the other player bothered to rp and make friends and connections. My brother complained that he didn't want to rp, so I told him that if he wasn't going to rp, he shouldn't expect his character to have much to do in downtime. I warned him on three seperate occasions that I'd kill off his character. He didn't stop, so I had Gregor, a powerul bard and commander of the camp have a vision of my brother being the key to his enemy's victory, so he drove him from his camp. Normally, I really hate to let out of character stuff influence in character actions, but my brother was being so disruptive that it was ruining the game for everyone. I still don't like the situation- I resent having to do this, but it's been several months, where nearly every game he spends whining. At the slightest penalty applied to his roll for circumstances, or the fact that an NPC hits him, or the fact that an NPC makes a save, or the fact that anyone gets treasure or experience where he doesn't, he'll go into a fit of whining. I really don't know what to do with him, because I really can't seem to get him to just sit and play anymore. He's been a part of our group for so long that it would be impossible to simply ban him from games, and he's actually been a good player some of the time. It's just that when things aren't centered on him, he just becomes a total arse. Wow... probably the longest post I've ever made on these boards. Anyways, I hope you don't think I'm being a tyrant as a DM, but I do give him chances, I really do. He has his moments of glory, but if he doesn't care to rp, he's not going to get the benefits associated with it.
DivineHammer 11-07-04, 08:09 AM	This is simple. Either a) kick his *** and tell him to quit whining. or b) tell him to get lost because he's ruining the fun of the game. Just because he's your brother doesn't mean you have to put up with his crap.
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-07-04, 08:35 AM	We all had players like this...so your not alone. Some people just whine and cry, that's the way they are. BT
tompulsar 11-07-04, 08:37 AM	Stomp a mudhole in the punk...show him who's the boss. ;)
Oompa 11-07-04, 09:08 AM	Indeed.. make sure he understands that he stops whining or you'll quit or kick his arse out.. or turn the table... talk to the other player(s) that you are going to do.. and when he does anything you whine to him.. when he ask's what's up, tell him that this acting is how he is... show him how he his..
Neerie 11-07-04, 09:29 AM	Tell him that he should play video games instead, the ones you can save and reload after screwing up :noway:
twoDtwenty 11-07-04, 10:26 AM	You need a wooden cutout of Elminster (or another appropriately overpowered magic using NPC) displaying one of those "You must display this level of maturity to ride this ride" signs. It looks to me like your brother could use some serious growing up and development of some interpersonal skills before he tries to tackle any more multiplayer games. If the concept of growing up throws him into a temper tantrum as well, you could always gag him and leave him in a closet until the game is over. If hes as disruptive as it looks none of the other players will mind losing his character, or playing it in proxy for a few sessions.
MortalPlague 11-07-04, 11:28 AM	It's a very frustrating thing, though. In previous campaigns, he's demonstrated some very good play- one where he played a bard in 2nd Ed was a great campaign, in a large part, due to his efforts. Also, in one of my other campaigns, when I was DM'ing him 1 on 1 initially, he was playing very well. Is there any way I could encourage him to bring his playstyle over into regular gameplay as well?
Jell_Moo 11-07-04, 11:34 AM	First things first, no matter how immature he may act, do not threten to kill his character. That won't solve anything. All that will do is inspire him to create another character that's even more disruptive. There are a few questions that may be relevant. 1) How old is your brother? For that matter, how old are you and the rest of the group? 2) What kind of experience do you, your brother, and the rest of the group have when it comes to D&D? 3) Do you and your brother have serious issues outside of gaming? From what I can tell from your post, your brother seems to have 2 big problems. 1) He does not respect you or your authority as DM. 2) He feels the need to be the center of attention at all times. Both are serious issues that are generally found in either young gamers, or new gamers. Either way, that sort of behavior is not acceptable. However, correcting this behavior as DM can be quite tricky. Threatening the player with character death, xp loss, treasure loss or anything of the sort is a bad idea. That will just cause more resentment, escalate the problem, and make the situation worse. If I were you, this is what I'd do. Talk to him out of game. Explain to him that he has to tone it down. He is disrupting the game, and ruining the fun for everybody else. Explain that he cannot always be the center of attention, and that other party members have to have their moments to shine as well. Just because he doesn't shine in the social situations does not give him free reign to disrupt that part of the game. Also explain that things aren't always going to go his way. BAd things will happen to his character, and so will good. Being belligerent and disrupting play every time something unfortunate happens is not fair to the rest of the group (who I assume do not do the same thing), and if they can deal with such things with a good level of maturity, then your brother should have the decency to do the same. If he is not receptive to you, then you have to talk to the rest of the group about the situation. Find out how they feel, and see how bothered they are by this. Do not gang up on your brother with the group, that is a bad idea, just gauge the group to see how bothered they are by your brother's actions. It may be that they don't see the problem as being as big as you do. Ask the group to be a little more inclusive when it comes to social role playing, and try to include your brother in it a little more. Also, see if they can ask his character for advice, and try and make him feel useful. Also, offer your brother the opportunity to change his character. It is possible he is being disruptive simply because he does not like the character he's playing. It happens to everybody. Offer him a new character of equal level and XP, and equal value of treasure. Maybe the wizard isn't working ou the way he wanted it to, and it's frustrating him. Don't penalize him for this, just allow him the opportunity to make a switch if he wants. And finally, I would recommend one thing to you. Do not award XP in front of the players. If your brother is going to take exception to other players recieving XP for intelligent play, then it's not worth the fight. After the session is over, pass around slips of paper with the XP for the character on it. Or better yet, send an email to everybody telling the what XP they recieved. It may be that your brother is competitive in this are (I've seen that before), so trying to remove the competition can help. Just try and take it easy, don't do anything rash, and you should be able to avoid hurt feelings and bruised egos. Do not cater to your brother's every whim, or allow him to think he's running the show, but try and find a nice middle ground. Don't be a jerk, but be firm on what sort of behavior you'll tolerate when you're running the show. Hoprfully, you guys can come to a nice resolution, and I wish you the best of luck.
Chronomodra 11-07-04, 02:47 PM	As someone else said before, do not reward experience in front of players. All it accomplishes is make them wonder 'how come THEY got more than I did?' And also, as someone else said, never threaten to punish the person in-game for their out of character actions. Instead, give exp bonuses to those players which get along and never complain about what happens. If your brother complains about favoritism towards those players, then you can simply respond, "Wouldn't you show favoritism to those that make your life easier instead of harder?" The main thing that struck me was your brother saying 'I don't really feel like RPing'. People who don't want to RP just want to play the game for the game itself, the stats and rolls. Which means they are trying to 'win' the game, which isn't something you do in a role playing game. This is why when I start my campaigns, I always say beforehand that I'm looking for roleplayers, not roll-players. That's the primary thing you could've done to prevent this: lay out your ground rules when the campaign starts to say that roleplaying will be encouraged, whining and trying to 'win' will not. But it's too late for that, so we have to come up with solutions that will help you now. If you want to go the ironic route, you can have a session where it seems like his character is going to be the focus of the session, and then start whining every time one of your lowly monsters gets killed too quickly. Show him how much it delays the game to have someone complain about things not going their way (especially the DM.) If you want, have the other players join in too. But this solution will have just as much a chance of angering him as it does teaching him something. If you want a solution that will encourage him but still not make everything go his way, give him the attention he seeks: but make it bad attention. Perhaps he is captured, and he has to escape on his own. Or maybe someone sends assassins to kill him. Whatever the reasoning behind it, he'll soon realize that 'attention' is not all it's cracked up to be. If he complians about it, tell him, "Well you weren't happy when I was picking on the player with a price on his head." The main thing is to get him to realize that you're all there to have fun, and his complaining isn't making it fun. In fact, ask him what you could to allow him to have more fun. If he brings up the things he's whining about (not getting attention and being penalized for things), then ask him if he'd have fun if someone else was getting all the attention and not being penalized for things. No, he wouldn't, it would be favoritism. Then the question for him to think about becomes: Why, then, does he ask you to show favoritism towards him?
MortalPlague 11-07-04, 04:28 PM	I'm 19, turning 20 this month, and he just turned 18. We've been playing D&D for about 7 years, so it's a good long time; during that period, we actually started with a copy of first edition found at the local church fall fair (how's that for irony?), moved on to second edition, and upgraded to third edition when it came out (and 3.5, subsequently). Most of the other players are between 16 and 18. We've all been gaming for quite a while, and this problem has only manifested itself recently... the entire group, to be honest, is very xp competitive, and even if I give it out in secret, they try and find out how much the others have. :rolleyes: As far as out of game, well, we're the two oldest brothers. It does tend to get abrasive at times, so that could be it. He usually does respect me as a DM, partly because I'm the only one in the group who's all that good at it and willing to do it, but lately, it's been slipping. I have talked with him out of game, but when he's being disruptive in-game, it's really an issue. He's done it as a fighter, as a ranger, and as a wizard. Playing the ranger, he was fine right up till he became a part of the group, and then the whole whining issue started up. Even though his character is more or less the primary character in that group, he still gets at it (though not as much as with the wizard).
Dungeon Master 11-07-04, 05:01 PM	He's 18? :eek: I thought you were going to say 12 or 13. Whining and complaining is no way for an adult to act and you should tell him that.
Talanall 11-07-04, 05:04 PM	You could just award all of them the same XP each session. That's what the game assumes will happen, anyway, and if your players are so immature as to compete for XP, it will probably make your life as a DM a lot easier.
nekrolog 11-07-04, 05:13 PM	He's 18? :eek: I thought you were going to say 12 or 13. Whining and complaining is no way for an adult to act and you should tell him that. But let's be realistic... adults whine and complain all the time. We just make it sound like rational arguing.
MortalPlague 11-07-04, 05:42 PM	You could just award all of them the same XP each session. That's what the game assumes will happen, anyway, and if your players are so immature as to compete for XP, it will probably make your life as a DM a lot easier. It's true, but I hate to just reward everyone equally when certain players and characters deserve much more. If one character spends the session making gutsy plans, landing several critical hits, and laying their life on the line while another just sits and cowers behind rocks, I don't think they deserve the same amount of experience.
Talanall 11-07-04, 05:46 PM	It'll probably even out over the long run. Especially if you situate XP awards in a context along the lines of, "You want more XP? Learn to work together so you can handle the sorts of creatures that will earn you more XP." From the little sketch you've shown us of how your players operate right now, I can confidently say that they'd be unlikely to last through a single combat encounter in my own campaigns. It sounds as if all of them tend to do their own thing in combat, rather than try to present a cohesive front to the enemy. Your brother just sounds like he's the worst of the lot with regard to refusing to watch out for anything but his own character.
MortalPlague 11-07-04, 06:15 PM	True, they do their own thing, though they have enough of a mind for strategic thinking when it comes down to it. Particularly the player who decided to hang back. The barbarian player had pretty well given up on his character, and was throwing him into a daring combat as a sort of suicide. I don't know what my brother was doing though... :P
MageofMyth 11-08-04, 01:15 PM	the entire group, to be honest, is very xp competitive, and even if I give it out in secret, they try and find out how much the others have. :rolleyes: I have found that it is best to give everyone at a session the same amount of exp. This way they stay at the same level [except for death] and they don't act like twits to get more exp. They can't argue that player x received more than they did if everyone receives the same. Yes some times a particular player does more, but it evens out over the long run. It sounds like you have become very frustrated with him, and perhaps should take a few weeks away from the game to calm down. If talking to him out of the game and away from wherever you play doesn't work then quit playing with him.
Ma'ElKoth 11-08-04, 09:17 PM	Can you maybe convince him that getting the crap kicked out of his character is fun? DnD is about heroes, and for the most part no hero waltzes through to the end of the film or book without taking some hurting. I dunno... I always thought that taking the most damage was a badge of pride (I still don't like dying much though.) Have him watch Fight Club or something.