Attributes question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attributes question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cervid
09-24-07, 05:09 PM What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes? Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet).
TwiddleStootch
09-24-07, 05:53 PM Well there are two main ways:
Point Buy and Rolling.

There is great debate over which is better, and there does not seem to be one true winner.
It really comes down to what kind of game you want to run.

However, I do not believe character creation rules like Abiltiy score generation are OGL, so I can not post them, but in essence:

Point Buy: You have a number of points to spend as you see fit, giving you control your your stats.

Rolling: You roll to decide your abilities.
There are many methods which result in a variety of averages and allow a range of freedom in assigning score.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 05:57 PM Can't post specifics here because of the CoC.

There are three methods:

Roll dice
Every one rolls dice for each ability. This adds randomness to the game. Can make some powerful characters, some wimpy.

point-buy
Everyone gets the same number of points. They spend them on the different abilities as they see fit. Higher ability scores cost more points. This ensures all players start with equal footing.

standard array
The most restrictive. Similar to point-buy. The players get the same values but they can arrange them they way they want. All players have equal scores but can't customize.

I generally prefer point-buy as it you won't have a player with an unfair advantage (compared to other players) simply because he rolled really well. It seems really dangerous to base all scores that are used for the rest of the campaign on a mere handful of rolls.
mvincent
09-24-07, 06:38 PM What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes?32 pt. point buy from the DMG.

Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet).That would be breaking forum rules, but it's on page 169 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide v.3.5.
DM Zoc
09-24-07, 06:52 PM I believe both Nonelite and Elite arrays are open content. Nonelite is generally used by NPCs and typical monsters, while the Elite array is used for PCs and exceptional NPCs.

The Elite array is {15,14,13,12,10,8} and the Nonelite array is {13,12,11,10,9,8}; in either case, the character is created by assigning these ability scores as you or the player sees fit.

I've always been a fan of rolling 3d6 for each stat, and not assigning those values to taste (i.e. the first 3d6 is your Strength, the second 3d6 is your Dex, etc.) but this method can create vastly different power levels among characters.
deathbane
09-24-07, 07:56 PM What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes? Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet).

I think point buy is better because it takes away excuses for having a weak character, and you don't have to worry about someone getting 18's across the board. How many points you give them is up to you. I like a high powered game so I start all stats at zero and give them 80-90 points on a 1-to-1 basis. but most people that I have talked to use 25 or 32 point buy with stats starting at 8.
DwarvenArcher
09-24-07, 09:50 PM Various Rolling Methods
Pros: Adds an element of chance and variability to your character. Some players love this.
Cons: The power level of the PC's relative to each other is now random, so whining is very common. Cheating becomes a concern, too. I once had a player bring me a PC that he rolled up at home with all 18's for stats...

Point Buy
Pros: About as fair as you can get as far as relative PC power levels. Impossible to cheat unless you can't add.
Cons: Really dumb players may need help adding, bring a calculator for them(I'm serious). Takes away an exciting part of character creation.

Arrays
Pros: Same as point buys but faster.
Cons: Pretty boring.
mvincent
09-25-07, 12:18 PM I think point buy is better because it takes away excuses for having a weak character, and you don't have to worry about someone getting 18's across the board. Another big advantage of point buy is that players can generate characters without needing someone else to observe their rolls.
Tequila_Sunrise
09-25-07, 12:33 PM This is a method that I recently yoinked from someone:

Card-based Stat Generation:
1. Remove two of each of the following cards from a deck of playing cards: 4 through 9. This gives you a total of 12 cards.
2. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out in pairs.
3. Turn each pair over and add them up. This gives you 6 scores, ranging from 8 to 18.

This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math!
Some_call_me_Tim
09-25-07, 01:52 PM This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math!I don't know if I would call it 'fair.' Sure if you add up the abilities scores every one has the same total, but higher ability scores are 'worth' more; also even ability scores give the same bonus as odd scores do, so if you have lots of odd scores you have a lot of wasted potential.

Rolling 3d6 is 'fair' in the sense that all players have the same chance of rolling all 18's. But since each set of results is not equal it is also 'unfair.'

For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players.
Stev Beren
09-25-07, 01:57 PM I don't know if I would call it 'fair.' Sure if you add up the abilities scores every one has the same total, but higher ability scores are 'worth' more; also even ability scores give the same bonus as odd scores do, so if you have lots of odd scores you have a lot of wasted potential.

Rolling 3d6 is 'fair' in the sense that all players have the same chance of rolling all 18's. But since each set of results is not equal it is also 'unfair.'

For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players.

No. If you have an odd ability score it means you can up your bonus in that ability at fourth level rather than eight. Why is that factor always ignored?
Some_call_me_Tim
09-25-07, 02:39 PM No. If you have an odd ability score it means you can up your bonus in that ability at fourth level rather than eight. Why is that factor always ignored?OK, if you are planning on increasing it, but if you have six odd values and you upgrade one at fourth, a second at eighth, third at twelfth, fourth at sixteenth, fifth at twenty; you better hope you are playing until well into epic. Which I serious doubt if you start with all 13's and make them all 14's.

One or two odd scores that you plan on increasing aren't the problem. It's having a lot of odd scores that you don't plan on increasing. Save for the odd prerequisite, there is almost zero reason to have an odd ability score that you don't plan on upgrading.
Escef
09-25-07, 02:54 PM This is a method that I recently yoinked from someone:

Card-based Stat Generation:
1. Remove two of each of the following cards from a deck of playing cards: 4 through 9. This gives you a total of 12 cards.
2. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out in pairs.
3. Turn each pair over and add them up. This gives you 6 scores, ranging from 8 to 18.

This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math!

That's nifty, I might try that sometime.
Tequila_Sunrise
09-25-07, 07:12 PM I don't know if I would call it 'fair.'

True, it isn't 100% fair, but it's pretty dam close. To be accurate, it is exactly 97.53% fair.
Salla
09-25-07, 07:18 PM I always use 28 points, but at player discretion, I'll bust out the Three Dragon Ante pseudorandomizing system from Dragon Magazine that makes sure you still have 28 points, but distributes them.

I personally prefer 28 point buy over just about anything else, simply because I decide what kind of character I want to play (typically during a conference with the other players to ensure our bases are covered and no toes are stepped on), then arrange points appropriately, rather than flop points and see what I get.
Crimson_Concerto
09-25-07, 07:33 PM I typically have my players use a 26 point buy. They thought it was low at first, since they had before been used to 40 point buys and 5D6 rolls (dropping both lowest after re-rolling 1s), but they agreed and got used to it very easily. I decided on Point Buy instead of rolling so that people could make their characters on their own, and I wouldn't have to remember everybody's rolls for them in case they forgot.

However, despite what some people might tell you, they don't know what the "best" way for your players to determine their starting attributes are. Only you and your players can determine what's "best" for you.
LCD2YOU
09-25-07, 07:48 PM One disadvantage of Point Buy is that even with "everyone having the same amount of points", some classes are better for it than others.

At 25 points, I can make a Human Wizard whose DCs for any one type of spell, Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion, etc., is 16 + Spell Level. They also have a lot more spells.

At 28 points, I make a Paladin who lacks either in their Mental Stats or skimps big time on their physical stats. (Don't tell me that 1st level Paladins start with Plate Armor, they don't in most games).

But for those just starting, Point Buy works well. As for the disparity in rolled stats between people, just have them roll in front of you. If one rolls well all the time, that's the game. Once the game starts, people are going to roll good, bad or indifferently all the time. They should be able to deal with it.
LefferDP
09-26-07, 04:18 AM For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players.

Really just to pick your nit here... Your first array of all 13s would be equal to a 30 point buy, already above average. Your second array would be equal to a 38 point buy. So, clearly better assuming the people who made up the point buy system. An array of 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8 would be more appropriate.
LCD2YOU
09-26-07, 06:28 AM Really just to pick your nit here... Your first array of all 13s would be equal to a 30 point buy, already above average. Your second array would be equal to a 38 point buy. So, clearly better assuming the people who made up the point buy system. An array of 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8 would be more appropriate.With that array, better hope they are a Sorcerer or a Wizard.
Stev Beren
09-26-07, 07:31 PM With that array, better hope they are a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

. . they have a bonus in all but one stat.

Geez.
LCD2YOU
09-26-07, 08:52 PM . . they have a bonus in all but one stat.

Geez.When compared to 13-13-13-13-13-13? That's a no brainer.

Even still, besides Dex and maybe Con, what else does a Wizard need? Desire is own thing but need? They have plenty of skill points, they get bonuses quickly for extra spells, their Save DC starts at +4 plus Spell Level.

Up until he reaches 11th level, he'll have one more of his highest spells to cast over a mage who starts with a 16 Int (who stops getting those extra spells at 7th level.

Granted such a mage has one role to fill, but they do it all so well.
LefferDP
09-26-07, 09:07 PM . . they have a bonus in all but one stat.

Geez.

People get used to 32 point buys and rolling 5d6 drop two so they generally don't think of the fact that positive stats mean the character is above average.

If we tried to get an 18 with the standard 25 point buy, then tried to keep all our stats afloat, we get 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9... Thus a lot of people like the 26 point buy so they can all be 10. Going the path of least optimization, we wind up with an array more like: 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12. While positive, they're still pretty mediocre. You're slightly above average in a lot of areas, and looky, you can take power attack or dodge or expertise. More optimally, we wind up with arrays like such: 14, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8.
Maerlyn
09-26-07, 10:52 PM Sorry if this is already posted but my group worked this out and it was great for all involved.

We rolled 8d6 keeping the 3 highest for the primary attribute
then 7d6 for the secondary
then 6d6 for the third
and so forth to 3d6 for the last attribute.

We got together and made decisions on what was the primary and so forth before rolling any characters up. If anyone would like our list feel free to PM me.

Please keep in mind the only characters we created them for was the ones allowed in my game so not every character class may be in the list.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cervid 09-24-07, 05:09 PM	What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes? Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet).
TwiddleStootch 09-24-07, 05:53 PM	Well there are two main ways: Point Buy and Rolling. There is great debate over which is better, and there does not seem to be one true winner. It really comes down to what kind of game you want to run. However, I do not believe character creation rules like Abiltiy score generation are OGL, so I can not post them, but in essence: Point Buy: You have a number of points to spend as you see fit, giving you control your your stats. Rolling: You roll to decide your abilities. There are many methods which result in a variety of averages and allow a range of freedom in assigning score.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 05:57 PM	Can't post specifics here because of the CoC. There are three methods: Roll dice Every one rolls dice for each ability. This adds randomness to the game. Can make some powerful characters, some wimpy. point-buy Everyone gets the same number of points. They spend them on the different abilities as they see fit. Higher ability scores cost more points. This ensures all players start with equal footing. standard array The most restrictive. Similar to point-buy. The players get the same values but they can arrange them they way they want. All players have equal scores but can't customize. I generally prefer point-buy as it you won't have a player with an unfair advantage (compared to other players) simply because he rolled really well. It seems really dangerous to base all scores that are used for the rest of the campaign on a mere handful of rolls.
mvincent 09-24-07, 06:38 PM	What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes?32 pt. point buy from the DMG. Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet).That would be breaking forum rules, but it's on page 169 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide v.3.5.
DM Zoc 09-24-07, 06:52 PM	I believe both Nonelite and Elite arrays are open content. Nonelite is generally used by NPCs and typical monsters, while the Elite array is used for PCs and exceptional NPCs. The Elite array is {15,14,13,12,10,8} and the Nonelite array is {13,12,11,10,9,8}; in either case, the character is created by assigning these ability scores as you or the player sees fit. I've always been a fan of rolling 3d6 for each stat, and not assigning those values to taste (i.e. the first 3d6 is your Strength, the second 3d6 is your Dex, etc.) but this method can create vastly different power levels among characters.
deathbane 09-24-07, 07:56 PM	What is the best way to have players determine their starting attributes? Can someone explain how each method works (I plan to buy the DM guide soon but haven't yet). I think point buy is better because it takes away excuses for having a weak character, and you don't have to worry about someone getting 18's across the board. How many points you give them is up to you. I like a high powered game so I start all stats at zero and give them 80-90 points on a 1-to-1 basis. but most people that I have talked to use 25 or 32 point buy with stats starting at 8.
DwarvenArcher 09-24-07, 09:50 PM	Various Rolling Methods Pros: Adds an element of chance and variability to your character. Some players love this. Cons: The power level of the PC's relative to each other is now random, so whining is very common. Cheating becomes a concern, too. I once had a player bring me a PC that he rolled up at home with all 18's for stats... Point Buy Pros: About as fair as you can get as far as relative PC power levels. Impossible to cheat unless you can't add. Cons: Really dumb players may need help adding, bring a calculator for them(I'm serious). Takes away an exciting part of character creation. Arrays Pros: Same as point buys but faster. Cons: Pretty boring.
mvincent 09-25-07, 12:18 PM	I think point buy is better because it takes away excuses for having a weak character, and you don't have to worry about someone getting 18's across the board. Another big advantage of point buy is that players can generate characters without needing someone else to observe their rolls.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-25-07, 12:33 PM	This is a method that I recently yoinked from someone: Card-based Stat Generation: 1. Remove two of each of the following cards from a deck of playing cards: 4 through 9. This gives you a total of 12 cards. 2. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out in pairs. 3. Turn each pair over and add them up. This gives you 6 scores, ranging from 8 to 18. This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math!
Some_call_me_Tim 09-25-07, 01:52 PM	This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math!I don't know if I would call it 'fair.' Sure if you add up the abilities scores every one has the same total, but higher ability scores are 'worth' more; also even ability scores give the same bonus as odd scores do, so if you have lots of odd scores you have a lot of wasted potential. Rolling 3d6 is 'fair' in the sense that all players have the same chance of rolling all 18's. But since each set of results is not equal it is also 'unfair.' For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players.
Stev Beren 09-25-07, 01:57 PM	I don't know if I would call it 'fair.' Sure if you add up the abilities scores every one has the same total, but higher ability scores are 'worth' more; also even ability scores give the same bonus as odd scores do, so if you have lots of odd scores you have a lot of wasted potential. Rolling 3d6 is 'fair' in the sense that all players have the same chance of rolling all 18's. But since each set of results is not equal it is also 'unfair.' For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players. No. If you have an odd ability score it means you can up your bonus in that ability at fourth level rather than eight. Why is that factor always ignored?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-25-07, 02:39 PM	No. If you have an odd ability score it means you can up your bonus in that ability at fourth level rather than eight. Why is that factor always ignored?OK, if you are planning on increasing it, but if you have six odd values and you upgrade one at fourth, a second at eighth, third at twelfth, fourth at sixteenth, fifth at twenty; you better hope you are playing until well into epic. Which I serious doubt if you start with all 13's and make them all 14's. One or two odd scores that you plan on increasing aren't the problem. It's having a lot of odd scores that you don't plan on increasing. Save for the odd prerequisite, there is almost zero reason to have an odd ability score that you don't plan on upgrading.
Escef 09-25-07, 02:54 PM	This is a method that I recently yoinked from someone: Card-based Stat Generation: 1. Remove two of each of the following cards from a deck of playing cards: 4 through 9. This gives you a total of 12 cards. 2. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out in pairs. 3. Turn each pair over and add them up. This gives you 6 scores, ranging from 8 to 18. This is the first and only compromise between rolling and point buy that I have ever liked. It combines the excitement of chance with the certainty of 100% fairness. And to top it all off, it requires almost no math! That's nifty, I might try that sometime.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-25-07, 07:12 PM	I don't know if I would call it 'fair.' True, it isn't 100% fair, but it's pretty dam close. To be accurate, it is exactly 97.53% fair.
Salla 09-25-07, 07:18 PM	I always use 28 points, but at player discretion, I'll bust out the Three Dragon Ante pseudorandomizing system from Dragon Magazine that makes sure you still have 28 points, but distributes them. I personally prefer 28 point buy over just about anything else, simply because I decide what kind of character I want to play (typically during a conference with the other players to ensure our bases are covered and no toes are stepped on), then arrange points appropriately, rather than flop points and see what I get.
Crimson_Concerto 09-25-07, 07:33 PM	I typically have my players use a 26 point buy. They thought it was low at first, since they had before been used to 40 point buys and 5D6 rolls (dropping both lowest after re-rolling 1s), but they agreed and got used to it very easily. I decided on Point Buy instead of rolling so that people could make their characters on their own, and I wouldn't have to remember everybody's rolls for them in case they forgot. However, despite what some people might tell you, they don't know what the "best" way for your players to determine their starting attributes are. Only you and your players can determine what's "best" for you.
LCD2YOU 09-25-07, 07:48 PM	One disadvantage of Point Buy is that even with "everyone having the same amount of points", some classes are better for it than others. At 25 points, I can make a Human Wizard whose DCs for any one type of spell, Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion, etc., is 16 + Spell Level. They also have a lot more spells. At 28 points, I make a Paladin who lacks either in their Mental Stats or skimps big time on their physical stats. (Don't tell me that 1st level Paladins start with Plate Armor, they don't in most games). But for those just starting, Point Buy works well. As for the disparity in rolled stats between people, just have them roll in front of you. If one rolls well all the time, that's the game. Once the game starts, people are going to roll good, bad or indifferently all the time. They should be able to deal with it.
LefferDP 09-26-07, 04:18 AM	For example, one player could get all 13's, a mere +1 to each stat. The character is pretty mediocre. Another could get 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. While they have a low stat they also have a great stat. Since most classes only require two or three really good stats this is very good character. I know if I had a choice between the two I would definitely go for the second character, as would probably 95% or more of players. Really just to pick your nit here... Your first array of all 13s would be equal to a 30 point buy, already above average. Your second array would be equal to a 38 point buy. So, clearly better assuming the people who made up the point buy system. An array of 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8 would be more appropriate.
LCD2YOU 09-26-07, 06:28 AM	Really just to pick your nit here... Your first array of all 13s would be equal to a 30 point buy, already above average. Your second array would be equal to a 38 point buy. So, clearly better assuming the people who made up the point buy system. An array of 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8 would be more appropriate.With that array, better hope they are a Sorcerer or a Wizard.
Stev Beren 09-26-07, 07:31 PM	With that array, better hope they are a Sorcerer or a Wizard. . . they have a bonus in all but one stat. Geez.
LCD2YOU 09-26-07, 08:52 PM	. . they have a bonus in all but one stat. Geez.When compared to 13-13-13-13-13-13? That's a no brainer. Even still, besides Dex and maybe Con, what else does a Wizard need? Desire is own thing but need? They have plenty of skill points, they get bonuses quickly for extra spells, their Save DC starts at +4 plus Spell Level. Up until he reaches 11th level, he'll have one more of his highest spells to cast over a mage who starts with a 16 Int (who stops getting those extra spells at 7th level. Granted such a mage has one role to fill, but they do it all so well.
LefferDP 09-26-07, 09:07 PM	. . they have a bonus in all but one stat. Geez. People get used to 32 point buys and rolling 5d6 drop two so they generally don't think of the fact that positive stats mean the character is above average. If we tried to get an 18 with the standard 25 point buy, then tried to keep all our stats afloat, we get 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 9... Thus a lot of people like the 26 point buy so they can all be 10. Going the path of least optimization, we wind up with an array more like: 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12. While positive, they're still pretty mediocre. You're slightly above average in a lot of areas, and looky, you can take power attack or dodge or expertise. More optimally, we wind up with arrays like such: 14, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8.
Maerlyn 09-26-07, 10:52 PM	Sorry if this is already posted but my group worked this out and it was great for all involved. We rolled 8d6 keeping the 3 highest for the primary attribute then 7d6 for the secondary then 6d6 for the third and so forth to 3d6 for the last attribute. We got together and made decisions on what was the primary and so forth before rolling any characters up. If anyone would like our list feel free to PM me. Please keep in mind the only characters we created them for was the ones allowed in my game so not every character class may be in the list.