Automatic Secret Door checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Automatic Secret Door checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Decepticons
01-20-04, 01:42 AM Hopefully someone can give me some information here, because I can't find any.

Is there a rule that govorns races that get automatic secret door search checks as far as the number of checks they get per door? For example, does an elf get an automatic search roll every time they walk past a particular secret door, or only the first time?
Xalxika
01-20-04, 01:49 AM I rule that they only get it once, unless new circumstance arise, such as a riddle that leads to the secret door, a map showing where they are, someone telling them its whereabouts, etc. I'm not sure if there's a given rule about this, but that's the way I've always ruled it. One thing that may give a second shot at finding the secret door is light. I usually rule that if it's dark the first time they come by the door, they get a second shot if they come by with light via Daylight, torchlight, sunlight (if applicable), etc.. Hope that helps.

Xal
Mitchell
01-20-04, 03:10 AM As DM, it is ultimately your call, but consider this. How many times have you found something (car keys or what have you) in a place that you have already looked? How many times have you been somewhere, and noticed something that you haven't noticed before? Logic seems to say that every time that they pass the door, or for every turn that they are near enough the door (barring combat or some such), that they would get a check.
Decepticons
01-20-04, 03:30 AM Thanks for the ideas you two. It doesn't look like there is an official rule on this, so I guess I'll have to come up with a home-grown.
Lewin
01-20-04, 11:16 AM Well, since humans can decide to sit down and do 5 search checks in a room, and aren't penalized for having looked around previously, I'd say that the elf should be given their automatic search check each time they approach the hidden item/door.

You could consider the search check to be kinda like a "free action" that the elf is continually taking together with move actions.
Tressym_FR
01-20-04, 01:25 PM Hello, everyone. *s*

Most of my own players have their spot skill maxed out, while their search skill has minimal--if any points--in it. Based on this, should elves get a search check--as though actively searching, as the book says? Or should I give my elf PC a spot check on everything, since that's the higher skill? How do I TRULY differentiate between the two during game play? After all, it seems strange to me that one can spot things so easily, but if actively looking for it, they see almost nothing.

Thanks!
Lewin
01-20-04, 04:55 PM spot = find creatures
search = find items/doors
pres_man
01-20-04, 05:30 PM This isn't really all that much on topic, but is there somewhere that I could look for secret door DC's? I couldn't find it in the DMG, but I might have been looking at the wrong place. Mainly it would be nice if there was kind of scale as to how well it was done, sort of like the locked/stuck door table.
Xalxika
01-20-04, 11:52 PM pres_man I don't think there is a set DC for secret doors. I think the DC to find the door is the same as the Craft check that made it. So if a Dwarf has 10 ranks in craft, 2 Int bonus, +2 circumstance (if it's stone) and rolls a 7, then the DC to find the door is 21. I don't know for sure if this is the way to do it, but I haven't come across this problem as I usually don't have too many secret doors. But that's the way I would rule it. Hope that helps.

Xal
Edymnion
01-21-04, 11:15 AM The automatic secret door checking abilities pretty much clearly say they work as if the character were actively searching every time they walk by one. If the character walks back and forth by a door 10 times, they get 10 search checks to try and spot the door.

However, I'd suggest that you roll these checks behind the DM screen so you don't tip off the player with "Roll a Search Check" every time they walk down the same stretch of "empty" hallway.
Tressym_FR
01-21-04, 12:07 PM Originally posted by Lewin
spot = find creatures
search = find items/doors

Hello, again.

Please forgive me--I am at work and don't have access to the books at the moment. Is that stated somewhere specifically in the PHB, DMG or ? My players are rules lawyers so anytime I can point to the book and say "See? Right here." is always a bonus for me.

Thanks!
dantedarkstar
01-21-04, 12:07 PM Personally I thrown all "automatic" checks like that out of the window.

If you search, you search, if you don't you don't.

It doesn't change balance that much, and makes GM'ing far easier.

One idea to not tip off players at all, is to roll let's say 20 checks before session, then just look up next result plus character's relevant modifier and you have it. No need to roll. (players are notorious metagamers, and if you roll dice suddently, they will probably try to search more careful, first finding some IC excuse).

You could even roll separately for each char and skill.

Like having 10 rolls for Search, Listen and Spot for each character (optionally even saves if there will be some... poisons or things like that which require save without knowing it).
LostDM
01-21-04, 12:37 PM Well unless they are in combat why don't you just take a 10 for them, that way multiple checks won't matter. By the same token, if they pass by 20 times or stand there 2 minutes let them take a twenty.

You could get really percise with this if you wanted. Like if they need to roll a fifteen to see the door, let them see it on the 15th time or after a minute and thirty seconds.

You could work all this out before hand saveing time in game.
olshanski
01-21-04, 01:17 PM If you don't have the PHB, you can always look at the on-line SRD: this is the "System Resource Document" which lists almost all rules you would care about. These are official D&D rules published by WOTC. For the most part, these are directly taken from the PHB, although some color text has been removed.

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35

Here is what it says under SEARCH:

EXAMPLES OF SEARCHING:
Ransack a chest of junk to find a map: DC 10
Find a ordinary secret door: DC 20
Find a difficult nonmagic trap: DC 21+
Find a magical trap: DC25+[spell level]
Find a well-hidden secret door: DC 30

Here is what it says under SPOT
Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Tressym_FR
01-21-04, 02:00 PM Thanks for the info. I've often heard reference to "SRD", but never actually knew what it meant, or where to find it.

*s* Thanks again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Decepticons 01-20-04, 01:42 AM	Hopefully someone can give me some information here, because I can't find any. Is there a rule that govorns races that get automatic secret door search checks as far as the number of checks they get per door? For example, does an elf get an automatic search roll every time they walk past a particular secret door, or only the first time?
Xalxika 01-20-04, 01:49 AM	I rule that they only get it once, unless new circumstance arise, such as a riddle that leads to the secret door, a map showing where they are, someone telling them its whereabouts, etc. I'm not sure if there's a given rule about this, but that's the way I've always ruled it. One thing that may give a second shot at finding the secret door is light. I usually rule that if it's dark the first time they come by the door, they get a second shot if they come by with light via Daylight, torchlight, sunlight (if applicable), etc.. Hope that helps. Xal
Mitchell 01-20-04, 03:10 AM	As DM, it is ultimately your call, but consider this. How many times have you found something (car keys or what have you) in a place that you have already looked? How many times have you been somewhere, and noticed something that you haven't noticed before? Logic seems to say that every time that they pass the door, or for every turn that they are near enough the door (barring combat or some such), that they would get a check.
Decepticons 01-20-04, 03:30 AM	Thanks for the ideas you two. It doesn't look like there is an official rule on this, so I guess I'll have to come up with a home-grown.
Lewin 01-20-04, 11:16 AM	Well, since humans can decide to sit down and do 5 search checks in a room, and aren't penalized for having looked around previously, I'd say that the elf should be given their automatic search check each time they approach the hidden item/door. You could consider the search check to be kinda like a "free action" that the elf is continually taking together with move actions.
Tressym_FR 01-20-04, 01:25 PM	Hello, everyone. s Most of my own players have their spot skill maxed out, while their search skill has minimal--if any points--in it. Based on this, should elves get a search check--as though actively searching, as the book says? Or should I give my elf PC a spot check on everything, since that's the higher skill? How do I TRULY differentiate between the two during game play? After all, it seems strange to me that one can spot things so easily, but if actively looking for it, they see almost nothing. Thanks!
Lewin 01-20-04, 04:55 PM	spot = find creatures search = find items/doors
pres_man 01-20-04, 05:30 PM	This isn't really all that much on topic, but is there somewhere that I could look for secret door DC's? I couldn't find it in the DMG, but I might have been looking at the wrong place. Mainly it would be nice if there was kind of scale as to how well it was done, sort of like the locked/stuck door table.
Xalxika 01-20-04, 11:52 PM	pres_man I don't think there is a set DC for secret doors. I think the DC to find the door is the same as the Craft check that made it. So if a Dwarf has 10 ranks in craft, 2 Int bonus, +2 circumstance (if it's stone) and rolls a 7, then the DC to find the door is 21. I don't know for sure if this is the way to do it, but I haven't come across this problem as I usually don't have too many secret doors. But that's the way I would rule it. Hope that helps. Xal
Edymnion 01-21-04, 11:15 AM	The automatic secret door checking abilities pretty much clearly say they work as if the character were actively searching every time they walk by one. If the character walks back and forth by a door 10 times, they get 10 search checks to try and spot the door. However, I'd suggest that you roll these checks behind the DM screen so you don't tip off the player with "Roll a Search Check" every time they walk down the same stretch of "empty" hallway.
Tressym_FR 01-21-04, 12:07 PM	Originally posted by Lewin spot = find creatures search = find items/doors Hello, again. Please forgive me--I am at work and don't have access to the books at the moment. Is that stated somewhere specifically in the PHB, DMG or ? My players are rules lawyers so anytime I can point to the book and say "See? Right here." is always a bonus for me. Thanks!
dantedarkstar 01-21-04, 12:07 PM	Personally I thrown all "automatic" checks like that out of the window. If you search, you search, if you don't you don't. It doesn't change balance that much, and makes GM'ing far easier. One idea to not tip off players at all, is to roll let's say 20 checks before session, then just look up next result plus character's relevant modifier and you have it. No need to roll. (players are notorious metagamers, and if you roll dice suddently, they will probably try to search more careful, first finding some IC excuse). You could even roll separately for each char and skill. Like having 10 rolls for Search, Listen and Spot for each character (optionally even saves if there will be some... poisons or things like that which require save without knowing it).
LostDM 01-21-04, 12:37 PM	Well unless they are in combat why don't you just take a 10 for them, that way multiple checks won't matter. By the same token, if they pass by 20 times or stand there 2 minutes let them take a twenty. You could get really percise with this if you wanted. Like if they need to roll a fifteen to see the door, let them see it on the 15th time or after a minute and thirty seconds. You could work all this out before hand saveing time in game.
olshanski 01-21-04, 01:17 PM	If you don't have the PHB, you can always look at the on-line SRD: this is the "System Resource Document" which lists almost all rules you would care about. These are official D&D rules published by WOTC. For the most part, these are directly taken from the PHB, although some color text has been removed. http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35 Here is what it says under SEARCH: EXAMPLES OF SEARCHING: Ransack a chest of junk to find a map: DC 10 Find a ordinary secret door: DC 20 Find a difficult nonmagic trap: DC 21+ Find a magical trap: DC25+[spell level] Find a well-hidden secret door: DC 30 Here is what it says under SPOT Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it. A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Tressym_FR 01-21-04, 02:00 PM	Thanks for the info. I've often heard reference to "SRD", but never actually knew what it meant, or where to find it. s Thanks again!