Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LOE_Frey 01-10-08, 09:27 AM	I find myself in an interesting situation, likely because my DM'ing expereince is different then that of the new group I am involved with. Hoping to improve my own quality as a DM and potentially that of the DM in my new group. I have been playing with a new group for a very short period of time. Its your typical home game, a bit lax on rules but so be it. What I find..."annoying" is the players big box store shopping mentality. What I mean is this, they play a session then take their gold to spend as usual. They say "oh this town may not be big enough to have X items...." Great! so they just say they go to a bigger town because they have to wait for their armor to be fixed anyway and then nearly anything within the DMG price range (item availability is a function of the size, and thus gp max of the the town) is available for purchase. Lets buy 5 Ioun stones and some blah blah... Maybe I am a bit more limiting in what I believe a city might have available and therefore find myself saying..."if you want that it may take a month for the merchant to get ahold of one." Maybe I am a bit too harsh, please let me know if you think so it will only help me. But ultimately here is my question. If you think that my handling of item purchases, not everything that is in that price range is available right now attitude, is more accurate what advise would you give to approach the DM players as such? They have been playing together for some time so I don't want to be a jerk being new, but I also don't want to be able to see people just get anything they want anytime. My thought was simply starting off saying "do you think the shop would have that in stock at this time?" as a way of imparting my thought yet if the answer is yes all the time it may not be direct enough. Any suggestions? Maybe I can handle it when I DM a session and see how it goes over as well. Thanks for any suggestions.
KyoMamoru 01-10-08, 09:56 AM	Well, I play in a group where we essentially do the same as the group that you just talked about. More so, I'm a DM that allows it as well. It's mostly a matter of mindset in how you handle and enjoy adventuring. My groups mentality is the quest is over once you have acquired your loot, because they want to see the progression of their characters. They don't want to drag around twenty dungeons of 'junk rares' with them, before they have a chance to spend it. Once they have reached the respectable [insert large city here], the players only must wait a duration for an item if it is exceedingly complicated. Generic 'rares' such as +1, and +2s tend to be in stock all the time. Something wacky such as a gauntlet sword with a retractable blade [for piercing+blunt damage] obviously takes awhile to make. Custom fits normally take on business day, but most of the time this small amount of time is not going to cause them any grief [unless they were foolish enough to forget to look at the horizon. =p Now, at the same time I only allot for a few MAJOR cities whenever I make a campaign. This makes it easier to funnel plot hooks to the players, if they are always finding their way at [insert large city] which happens to have their favorite tavern. Now, if they are in the middle of a rural area, they are hard pressed to find a black smith that is capable of making anything more than horse shoes. Really, I think you're just being a tad hard on them. Give the idea a few secessions to grow on you. It really isn't too bad, since the acquisition of store bought gear will only take you so far in D&D. Now, finding that High level Wizard to make you....
LeeAlucard 01-10-08, 10:01 AM	It depends on the size of the city, of course. Here's an example: In a small peaceful community, they'll probably only have one, maybe two weaponsmiths. Chances are that the weaponsmith will be low in level. Thus, there would be a fairly low amount of weapons available for purchase in town, and if the players wanted to buy more than that (but still be within the town's gp limit), the weaponsmith would have to make more, and the players would have to wait for them. A larger community has higher-level NPC's, so you could say that they have more (though it might still be a good idea to limit the number to a degree that's reasonable). EDIT: Ack! Ninja'ed by KyoMamoru!
Jutter 01-10-08, 10:10 AM	I generally use the gp limit for towns, and I let them run off to a bigger one if they need a more expensive item. That's pretty much possible in seconds, since little random encounters will occur. My gamedays are scarce and I'd prefer to fill them with 'the story' instead of shopping and slaying random monsters. I do keep track of the time passed though. Especially humans and half-orcs reach middle age pretty fast if they keep travelling between towns for months and months every time they want to shop. And of course, the BBEG's scheme goes on. But right now I run a Dragonlance campaign. Me and two players recently read the novels, and we feel that Krynn is a low-magic world. (Now don't start that discussion. By all means, have your Krynn be high magic. Ours is low-magic.) So the entire group agreed magic items will be hard to come by and will by definition not be for sale. They'll need contacts or quests to get magic items. From your post I understand you're somewhere in between my two methods. I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. Two DM's applying different styles makes them different, not better or worse. In the end, the only benchmark of a good DM is the amount of fun the group has had.
Centor 01-10-08, 11:16 AM	On this note, does anyone know of a good generator for this type of thing? Say select city size/GP value/ PC Level and generate a list of avaliable items. thanks!
Dunsel 01-10-08, 11:55 AM	I would not allow the DMG shop for levels below 8. Then, even if the town is large, limit the type and quantity of items available. I have never allowed a magic shop to carry anything higher in value than 1000 gps. Everything else is a special order. This means the price is higher than that listed in the DMG and there is a wait of 2 times the normal amount of time for the item to be created to allow for other items waiting in line for creation. Also, bandits may steal the magic item shipment if that applies. PCs hate that one! It is also an excellent plot hook. The magic shop is too video game for me unless there are restrictions.
BENEVOLENT_DM 01-10-08, 12:03 PM	Every group does this differently, but is an assumption of 3.5 DnD that the players will be able to find item of x gp in x sized city. If this does not work for your campaign, change it, but make sure your players understand that you are changing it. My preference would be no shops for magic items. Just my opinion then.
HARLEYDUDE 01-10-08, 12:17 PM	I have played in both types of games. Yes I am a player not a DM. IN one campaign we lived in a large city and constantly came back home and had a lot of "down time" so stuff could be made or aquired with ease. In another game the DM definately wanted to hold back the amt of items like you are saying. So to do that he sent us to the underdark. NO towns NO stores. We had to use what we found. The only shopping we got to do was some traveling salesmen on a caravan. The DM had a preprinted list of what that guy had and the amt he would buy from us. He (DM) did do a good job of letting us "find" things that our chara could use. (He didn't give us a wizards staff when we didnt have a arcane spell user for instance, but he did give us a portable hole). We (players) did and didn't like this. It did make us think more about what we wanted to lug with us, and what to possibly hide and come back for. ie. problem solving. However starting basiclly low level and not being able to enchant our weapons and armor kind of stunk. To have a +1 sword at level 10 with enough sellable gear and gold to make it a +4 was a downer. Just for reference we were there to stop some cult summoning in some god so teleport type spells did not work. so no just hopping home for the store. So I guess I'm saying to make your game plot/goal for the chara be the limit on what they have access to. Instead of you just being a stickler DM Good Luck HD
UAMDB 01-10-08, 12:19 PM	The way i look at it is I do not want to have to keep track of what items are avaible in every magic shop in every town. I also do not want to have to RP every single purchase that the PC's make. I let them know the size of the town, and the max they can spend. If they want to buy higher than that, then they can RP them trying to special order something. Neither way is right no wrong. It is just how you want to run your game. I have been in both types before. My preference as both player and DM, is I like to just do shopping as a part of down time. Besides I have seen DM's use this against players.."Sorry I know you want to take levels in EWM but none of the shops carry that exotic weapon. Maybe you can find it in some loot. You know I roll random loot." That happened with me in 3.0 when I was building a Weapon Master out of Sword and Fist using a Mercuiral Greatsword. I was starting at 6th level with the group and the DM would not allow me to start with one and none of the shops carried one. Nevermind that the Preq for the PrC was I had to own the weapon inorder to enter. I played for about 4 sessions and left. Of course he had some real bad house rules.
LOE_Frey 01-10-08, 01:44 PM	Yes this may be more of an issue of how much loot etc. is give out. I joined the game at 3rd level finding +2 Mithral armor and +4 available that no one wanted and I could not use. I think that is just a bit overpowering to see from the get go and maybe it was the idea that selling it could get them very good equipment way to early and alot of items form the Magic Item Comp. that would at least to me be a bit more rare but I am still early into the group. Thanks for all the thoughts, I will go with the flow for a while.
nlentz88 01-10-08, 01:53 PM	If you decide to use magic item shops, you may want to determine what exactly is being offered for sale at a given time. This tool can be useful in such cases: http://www.bin.sh/gaming/tools/magic.cgi
ccerose 01-10-08, 03:00 PM	In my game, the players need to let me know what items they want. I let them know if its available for purchase and when. There are also items that simply won't find a buyer for a specific amount of time. I do this to monitor wealth by level. Once I figure they need a boost in income, they miraculously find a buyer for that mithral chain shirt they've been lugging around. I also make some items only available by quest. Want that uber sword? Go find it. Also, convince the rest of your party to help you. Will they do it for free? Does the wizard help with the return promise you assist them to track down an ancient scroll? Does the rogue come along with the promise of first choice of loot?
1 ton ghost 01-10-08, 03:13 PM	you are well w/in your right as DM to do whatever the Hell you want firstly. this is not an uncommon problem either. PCs automatically assume they can buy/sell w/ abandon as per the $ and city size... no. -i'm a big fan of Gather Info beyond the normal. this is primarilly to find unusual items that normally can't be bought. ie)there is never a surplus of +1 swords anywhere. not even in metropolises. now, you might find someone to forge you one, but ideally, you want to buy off the rack as it were. yes, you tend to have better odds in larger populations, but it wouldn't be impossible for your rogue to get lucky on a Gather in a smaller town to find some old retired knight that wishes to sell his trusty old blade to finance the building of his new keep. it's all relative. just adjust DC accordingly. this also works for selling or fencing. never assume a buyer is ready and willing. MagItmCmp has a pretty simple ruling for Gather Info concerning magic item acquistion. recommended for ease of play and realism. -societal variables: or DM's wildcard really. you probably have better odds of scoring an axe in a dwarven community or bows in an elven one. fluff i know, but there is something to be said for fantasy integrity much less willing suspecion of disbelief. also, you can probably get a better price...in a different local. selling rare metal goods in a desert environ is king, as mining is pretty much a no there. conversely, adamantite is probably a bit cheaper in the Underdark (it's source), it's just surviving the trip is the catch. -PC lvl: just cuz' they can afford it, doesn't mean they should. again, alot of DM's interpretation here. some Item Creationists can flex their own muscle too and say "yes" or "no" depending on religious affliation, socio-economics, etc. all and all most of this comes down to Rule Zero. if they give you any static, that's fine as they're the loyal opposition, but you can always say, "fine, you DM."
sblaxman 01-10-08, 03:16 PM	As a DM, i've always went by the rule that players should never ever see the DM guide... when you switch DMs, that's no an option, so we'll just say the do know what is in there. I prefer to control the level of power the players have in my game. I like them to have power, but in respect to their level (no +4 swords at level 10). I typically go by the best available per town is small -> masterwork medium -> +1 large -> +2 City -> +3 Anything higher than that will not be for sale, in my campaign powerful items are fairly rare and can only be found. As for item types, I'm pretty lenient, if a player is into using a rare weapon, I make it available to them. I also make sure the items they get are, for the most part, usable by the party and well split. If I got a warrior, a cleric, and a thief, I'll give a mix of appropriate items for them, with some random stuff mixed in. If a guy uses an exotic weapon, I make sure it pops up in random treasure. In general, I go by low to mid level magic items can be found for sale in large cities. Anything very powerful would be quite rare and will not be on the open market... I also don't let them make a shopping list for magic items, I make a list for what is available (most to all low level items, and a mix of mid level). It's not to hard to do, just make a list on your off time. the list changes from month to month, to give some dynamics to the market, but for the most part the players find their powerful items
CCS 01-10-08, 03:31 PM	Well, I play in a group where we essentially do the same as the group that you just talked about. More so, I'm a DM that allows it as well. It's mostly a matter of mindset in how you handle and enjoy adventuring. My groups mentality is the quest is over once you have acquired your loot, because they want to see the progression of their characters. They don't want to drag around twenty dungeons of 'junk rares' with them, before they have a chance to spend it. Once they have reached the respectable [insert large city here], the players only must wait a duration for an item if it is exceedingly complicated. Generic 'rares' such as +1, and +2s tend to be in stock all the time. Something wacky such as a gauntlet sword with a retractable blade [for piercing+blunt damage] obviously takes awhile to make. Custom fits normally take on business day, but most of the time this small amount of time is not going to cause them any grief [unless they were foolish enough to forget to look at the horizon. =p Now, at the same time I only allot for a few MAJOR cities whenever I make a campaign. This makes it easier to funnel plot hooks to the players, if they are always finding their way at [insert large city] which happens to have their favorite tavern. Now, if they are in the middle of a rural area, they are hard pressed to find a black smith that is capable of making anything more than horse shoes. Really, I think you're just being a tad hard on them. Give the idea a few secessions to grow on you. It really isn't too bad, since the acquisition of store bought gear will only take you so far in D&D. Now, finding that High level Wizard to make you.... HaH! I'm pretty much your exact oppisite. In my Wed. night game the players have a devil of a time finding even mater-work items for sale..... Let alone any type of magical gear. And I'm not running a low magic world either. It's just that magics not gennerally lying about for direct sale. If you want something you have to either seek out specific examples of it, or seek out someone capable of crafting it for you & convince them to go to the effort on your behalf. Either way, considerable risk/effort/expense involved - & some actual RP. Same with the MW stuff. It's uncommon, but it's there. And, like the magic items, it tends to be in use by various NPCs - who've either had it commissioned or recieved it as family heirlooms. But unlike with the magic, there's nothing really more involved than simply visiting the renowned weaponsmiths of ____, paying the cost, & getting thier own sword/dagger/etc made. They just haven't made any effort to do so yet - preffering instead to see if they can scrounge something up in the local markets. A tactic that's almost certain to fail - because those who have/use such items don't just up & sell them....
Loftower 01-10-08, 06:40 PM	To me, the most important part is that the players know what they are getting into when they start their characters. Some characters are more dependent on buying the perfect items for that character build. Other PCs can progress well on the kind of stuff that they find. If some of your players created characters that need special items, and others didn’t, you could have a balance problem before long. How do I do it? Well, I can’t remember anyone buying a magic item in my world over the last six years (that is, 2001-present, not game years). Even mundane items can be hard to come by. The deep inventories of special equipment stretch my suspension of disbelief, personally. I was a bit shocked by the idea that a “small, peaceful community” would have two weaponsmiths. Why would it have one at all? The total weapons market in town it about two per year, which is easily covered by the occasional traveling merchant. My players know what to expect and build their characters accordingly. Of course, to be fair I must bear the same thing in mind for the NPCs, especially the BBEG and related minions. If the PCs don’t get custom items, neither do the bad guys. The bottom line, as always, is: Is the group having fun?
Etarnon 01-11-08, 12:47 AM	Sounds like the OP has a good handle on it. I'd suggest rather than dig out the lists, make shopping / bargaining / getting new gear an adventure. And I advise, no magical shops other than perhaps for the more common potions.
AtmaWeapon 01-11-08, 01:03 AM	On a hilarious note, I once was a player in a game where the vast majority of players thought that this was acceptible. One time in a major town, the DM described the magic emporium, with longswords carefully lined up in a rack with little tags dangling off them that said things like "+2 Adamantine, guaranteed to bypass a good portion of damage reduction!". After that, the players started to realize how silly and foolish it was to expect to just be able to waltz into a store and find whatever they wanted to buy out of the DMG.
MoltenDm 01-11-08, 02:45 AM	I usually think that if he can afford it he can find it, if you want to go ahead an make their lives difficult thats fine thats about 90% of our job anyways (which makes that fun 10% that much sweeter ;) )
Kala2000 01-11-08, 03:35 AM	I recently thought about this and came to a conclusion that the magic items lists e.g. in the Dungeonmaster's guide isn't really a list of the magic items that are out there rather than a list of example magic items that *could* be out there. As for magic shops I usually, depending on the size of the town/level of the owner, include masterwork/+1/+2/etc of all types and then make a few rolls to see what staffs/rings/wondrous items he has. Ie. even though I'm running Forgotten Realms its still quite hard for the players to come by "non-mundane" magical items. Everything with +1 or +2 is still quite common, except for the more expensive stuff like ring of protection +2 (compared to other items with +2 bonus). And I wouldn't even dream on letting my players get a hang of a powerful/expensive (say more than 20,000gp or a litte more) "randomly" without it being somehow incorporated into the adventure and me having a say on what sort of item it is. Thus it would be loot from a powerful monster, a reward for a quest or something a wizard would sell them after they help him or something of that sort. But none of the "Oh we have around 70,000gp now lets walk into a magic store and buy all the munchkin items we can".