Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ced666 10-09-06, 02:58 PM	Hello ! When your players go for some 'shopping' in the town, how do you usually manage the objects that they can buy ? I suppose that standard items described in the PHB are always available. But what about masterwork objects ? And what about all the magical and specific objects (weapons, armors, wands, potions, ...) ? Thanks for any feedback
Kaligrad 10-09-06, 03:12 PM	Depends on how much you care about the economy. You can build each shop of each town the PC's visit individually, and pick out specific masterwork and magical items they'd have for sale. You can develop templates of shops, with vague gp limits on what items are carried. You can simply go by the gp caps in the DMG to determine what's available in any town, and say that any item under the cap can be bought there. Or, you can build a huge metropolis, say that anything is available for the right price, and ignore the whole thing.
Ced666 10-09-06, 03:36 PM	You can build each shop of each town the PC's visit individually, and pick out specific masterwork and magical items they'd have for sale. Wow, that's a lot of work :D. Mmh, maybe doing a little shop generator should be a nice little program, have to think about that ;). Anyway, that's just too much work to do it manually. You can simply go by the gp caps in the DMG to determine what's available in any town, and say that any item under the cap can be bought there. Mmmh, yes, I think this is a good alternative: not a lot of work and still you can tune it depending of the city. And for you, how do you manage it (just out of curiosity) ?
fatal error 10-09-06, 03:40 PM	I recommend not having "magic shops" as they can lead to not only ridiculous economies but also the old, "I want to steal from the shop" bit that ends up taking the entire session and ending with the DM making stuff up out of thin air to reason why he can't do it. Instead, let them contact arcane and divine casters and contract them to craft the item. Then, of course, the availability of magic items depends on the availability of a caster able to craft them, plus time.
Kaligrad 10-09-06, 03:43 PM	I don't really care about the economy, and neither do my players. I go with the metropolis and basically just hand them the DMG when it's time to go shopping. Re: robbing the magic store: it's amazing how much a few Symbols and an Alarm spell can help. "Give me all your magic!" "Good luck. Heh heh heh..."
konad 10-09-06, 03:52 PM	your in luck dude i just worked this out last night because im kind of in the same mindset as you. keep in mind its not perfect, think of it as beta release. all checks are made weekly and you should go by the gp limit that is based on the size of the community. magical item shops 25% to find a specific minor magic item per week 15% to find a specific medium magic item per week 5% to find a specific major magic item per week delivery in 1 week 75% of the time, 2 weeks the rest of the time. placing an order 65% to find a wizard willing to make a minor magic item 45% to find a wizard willing to make a medium magic item 25% to find a wizard willing to make a major magic item the npc will begin making the item in.. 1d2 weeks for a minor 1d3 weeks for a medium 1d4 weeks for a major delivery is when the item is completed using the standard guidlines. pc can place a rush order for 150% of market price, when this is done the item is started the next day. using the black market 15% to find a minor magic item 25% to find a medium magic item 30% to find a major magic item delivery is in 1d4 weeks all prices are ate 110% market price when using the black market pc can place a rush job on the item at 200% market price everytime a pc uses the black market to buy an item there is a 5% chance that the authorities learn of the purchase and attempt to bring them to justice. this part is the real killer on black market chance that the owner has marked the item in some way that allows a means of finding the item, exact method is up to you 5% minor magic item 10% medium magic item 15% major magic item if the check results in the item being marded then a second check should be made at the same percentage to determine if the item is equipped with a magic recall ability. if it is then the item will return to the owner in 1d3 months, the exact methods of how it returns is up to you. as i said i just created this last night, any advice on it from anyone is most welcome, if you need any clarification please feel free to ask. this can also be applied to other aspects of the black market, some may require minor tweaks but most shouldnt. (ex. poisons would require some tweaking imo)
dizfactor 10-09-06, 04:03 PM	I am firmly of the opinion that under normal circumstances in most D&D settings, permanent magical items of any kind should not be for sale with any regularity. There should be no "magic shops" at all. Perhaps a given NPC might have a specific magic item he or she might be willing to part with for a trade, or in return for services rendered, or extraordinarily large amounts of gold, but not permanent items like weapons or armor or anything of the like.
icnivad 10-09-06, 04:49 PM	Konad: suggestion for furthing your way of thinking. What about having, instead of random percentages, Gather Information checks. Something like: DC 10+sqrt(itemvalue/1000)*4 This means that a 10th level character with gather info maxed out (13pts) would have a 50% chance of finding an item worth 10500gp. And would at most be able to find an item worth 33000gp. At L20, these would be 33000gp and 115000gp. you could modify this DC by +5 for each size category the city is smaller than metropolis. Metropolis: +0 Large City: +5 Small City: +10 Large town: +15 Small Town: +20 Village: +25 Hamlet: +30 Thorp: +35 edit: this also assumes they are looking for items with a rarity pretty equal to it's value. you could change this in situations that the rarity would be different. Say, the characters are looking for a suit of magic elven chain mail in a dwarven town. ie, +4 dc to elven built items, -4 to dwarven built.
Kaligrad 10-09-06, 04:55 PM	Konad: suggestion for furthing your way of thinking. What about having, instead of random percentages, Gather Information checks. Something like: DC 10+sqrt(itemvalue/1000)*4 Adding algebra is overthinking it. Maybe if the bonuses you proposed were added to the percentages instead? Plus the black market % could be modified by the lawfulness of the town and how big the local thieve's guild is.
CryoSilver 10-09-06, 05:00 PM	I just have a fixed percentage for items to be available and roll for each item. Some items will be available more often than others: wands and potions of CLW are going to be mush more common than Wands of Melf's Acid Arrow, for example.
ccerose 10-09-06, 05:19 PM	Small towns and villages won't have any magic shops. There will be alchemists, herbalist, healers, and blacksmiths. The only magic for sale is low level, one-shot stuff; potions and scrolls. There might be a few NPCs who possess magic armor/weapons, but they generally aren't for sale. Larger cities and metroplises will have shops that deal in magic weapons and armor, but no more than +1. When players are seeking more powerful magic items, they can be found through quests either as treasure or as a reward.
seygas_theatear 10-09-06, 05:22 PM	as a dm google search the "3.5 town generator" generate till you get a town you like, items over the limit are unavailable... items under the limit roll a dice for yes or no has it when the player asks, but tell them it might take a day or so, because the shopkeeper knows somebody who has one... of course there might be a small increase in the price.... yada yada... whatever flavor you want on it.... but you should let the pc's buy whatever they can afford... unless its strictly against the regions policy to sell wands of fireballs to children under the age of 18.... About players stealing items? Where do you think all those cursed items go when people sell them? IN THE DISPLAY CASE OF COURSE DUH!! Or just use minor illusions and have the items in some super duper trapped locked guarded magical swarm infested vault of doom. anyone who has enough money to deal in items should be smart enough to protect them... let people rob the shop... the shopkeeper uses pays the local cleric to cast locate object and then they send the guard after them.... very easy. stupid thieves... hehe
icnivad 10-09-06, 05:37 PM	Adding algebra is overthinking it. Maybe if the bonuses you proposed were added to the percentages instead? Plus the black market % could be modified by the lawfulness of the town and how big the local thieve's guild is. Yeah, I think you're right, I always play with an excel spreadsheet open with common formulas I use precreated so I just have to enter a number, and get a response. The basic thinking is that item value goes up exponentially as they get more powerfull, so I was trying to account for that. Any linear formula is going to be too easy at low levels and too hard to get good items at high levels. AH HA! After looking through the DMG a little, I just thought of a much better idea: base it on the item's Caster Level, which the DMG states for all items listed. This makes more sense in game as it actually talks about how hard an item is to make and has the benefit of being easier for the DM to figure out. so: Gather info DC = 10 + item's CL - town size modifier That sound a little better?
icnivad 10-09-06, 05:43 PM	As far as preventing theft goes, I think that the items displayed should be the real items as most magic items are fairly unique and there wouldn't likely be a cursed identical version to display for them. Magical items, though, are pretty easy for most experienced Wizards to locate/scry, and think of who likely owns a magic shop? I would guess that stealing from a magic item shop is fairly easy, but would likely end up with a group of powerful wizards teleporting to the location of the theiving party the next day.
Dragonsblood 10-09-06, 05:47 PM	Play it by ear. Smaller towns will have any martial/simple weapon and armor (minus full plate) and a few masterwork. Medium towns will have all of the above and a few +1s and minor wonderous items/rings/rods/etc. Larger towns will have all of the above and a few +2s or +3s and moderate magic items. Anything greater requires contract work with a wizard. I don't like the idea of a magic mart, but I don't like low magic worlds either. I think this system is a fair comprimise. As for players wanting to steal from magic shops...that's really an out of game problem. If your players are mature enough, tell them that you're not going to side track the game. Especially when the only two outcomes are unbalancing the PC power level, or getting permanently thrown in jail. But if your players really want an adventure based on that, you can try to prepare something for next session that is balanced and revolves around more than the rogue.
75RD Drum Clip 10-09-06, 06:12 PM	In my campaigns, magic items are not generally for sale. Occasionally the PCs will find a few potions or scroll that can be bought. As a character survives and gains in experience they might well discover places or groups that do in fact have Magic Items for sale.
Salla 10-09-06, 07:18 PM	I recommend not having "magic shops" as they can lead to not only ridiculous economies but also the old, "I want to steal from the shop" bit that ends up taking the entire session and ending with the DM making stuff up out of thin air to reason why he can't do it. Instead, let them contact arcane and divine casters and contract them to craft the item. Then, of course, the availability of magic items depends on the availability of a caster able to craft them, plus time. That's what I do, though I also add 'willingness'. Some people may simply choose not to do so, based on their worldview. For instance, few dwarves are going to craft a Dwarfbane weapon unless he can be convinced it's for, say, Duergar hunting.
mlund 10-09-06, 07:32 PM	I'm a big fan of "dealers," "collectors," and "artifacers," rather than "Magic Shops." Generally, in a decent-sized town you could probably find a "guy-who-knows-a-guy" who could facilitate getting some sort of listing of what is available through the local trade networks - for a price. The likelihood of actually seeing a store that just happens to have +1 Great Axes and Rods of Lesser Metamagic Extend on display is basically nil. Perhaps a very well-defended guild or merchant of some sort could have a store like that in a huge city - but not in most towns or smaller cities PCs visit while on an adventure. Going to obtain a particularly valuable Magic Item could very well be a small Adventure in itself. - Marty Lund
tafkamhokie 10-09-06, 08:30 PM	I used to use the system of having very little for sale off the shelf and allowing magic items to be created on consignment, but that ends up taking so long it usually just annoys the players. Have you looked at how long it takes to craft a masterwork weapon or suit of armor? To get your +1 full plate (which, according to the random tables in the DMG is the most common magical armor available) takes almost a year. Most low-level adventurers who want +1 full plate will die before it is finally ready. The system I use now is actually somewhat amusing to me. I have set up part of the world where the evil organization the PC's are ultimately going against are the owners of all the magic shops. They have an extensive network of wizards and sorcerers and part of how they fund their operations is through the sale of magic items. Even the smaller towns will have a tiny magic shop that has a few of the more commons potions, wands, +1 items, and bags of holding (the staples that most adventurers will want). Then, if you want something that is not on the shelf, the shopkeeper taps into their vast crystal ball network to see if anyone else has it in stock. If so, they teleport around to bring it to you. If not, they put an order to have it crafted. Regardless, the evil organization now has more money to do evil things and the PC's get their prescious magic items in a timely manner. It has worked out splendidly so far. As for magic shop theft...that just does not happen. Between the hideous magical traps and their ability to unerringly hunt you down to the ends of the universe (read the Discern Location spell description), nobody has ever gotten away with stealing from a magic shop.
konad 10-09-06, 09:28 PM	wow, lots of responses. first off sorry about stealing your thread ced, i dont feel too bad though because the topic is still on point. i saw some good stuff and i think some explanation on my reasons behind a few things will help others on why i did what i did. this is likely to be somewhat long, my apologies if i lose your attention span. Konad: suggestion for furthing your way of thinking. What about having, instead of random percentages, Gather Information checks. Something like: DC 10+sqrt(itemvalue/1000)*4 This means that a 10th level character with gather info maxed out (13pts) would have a 50% chance of finding an item worth 10500gp. And would at most be able to find an item worth 33000gp. At L20, these would be 33000gp and 115000gp. you could modify this DC by +5 for each size category the city is smaller than metropolis. Metropolis: +0 Large City: +5 Small City: +10 Large town: +15 Small Town: +20 Village: +25 Hamlet: +30 Thorp: +35 edit: this also assumes they are looking for items with a rarity pretty equal to it's value. you could change this in situations that the rarity would be different. Say, the characters are looking for a suit of magic elven chain mail in a dwarven town. ie, +4 dc to elven built items, -4 to dwarven built. first off i like the idea of gather information checks, i will religate this to finding a black market however, some basic rules were givin in the savage tide adventure path for finding the local black market opperatives. as for going through normal channels i wouldnt and my explanation will come in my response to a later post. i chose the values i did and did not take into account town size because i am automatically assuming that the town is limited in item availability by two factors, the npc spellcasters in the town and the town's gp limit as described in the dmg. as well i am assuming that the crafting of magical items is going to be a way for wizards to make an income, seems reasonable to me at least. however as an npc becomes higher level their attention is going to become focused in other areas instead of making items to supplement their income. by a certain point they will have made investments, attained positions, etc. that provide the majority of their income. this is why high level items are not commonplace, as well as the fact of how much time it takes to make them which for high level items is a lot. lower level npcs are expected to make more items that are within their means but these items are also greedly sought out by adventures, thus the demand is a little bit greater then the available supply. Adding algebra is overthinking it. Maybe if the bonuses you proposed were added to the percentages instead? Plus the black market % could be modified by the lawfulness of the town and how big the local thieve's guild is. good idea, this will affect the gather information dc I'm a big fan of "dealers," "collectors," and "artifacers," rather than "Magic Shops." Generally, in a decent-sized town you could probably find a "guy-who-knows-a-guy" who could facilitate getting some sort of listing of what is available through the local trade networks - for a price. The likelihood of actually seeing a store that just happens to have +1 Great Axes and Rods of Lesser Metamagic Extend on display is basically nil. Perhaps a very well-defended guild or merchant of some sort could have a store like that in a huge city - but not in most towns or smaller cities PCs visit while on an adventure. Going to obtain a particularly valuable Magic Item could very well be a small Adventure in itself. - Marty Lund this is along the lines of what im thinking. purchasing magic items is not you go to the store and look at the magical items on display, you may occasionally find something you want on display but for the most part magic items are purchased through a magical shop(deals in spells components, crafting materials, etc.)that essentially is a broker for individuals. they have a list, this person has this item for sale, this list is constantly changing thus the weekly checks. this is also why i implemented the delivery time, the broker has to get the item from the npc and hand it over the PC's. this can be longer if the individual is away on other business, thus a long distance communication must be made, this is not common so it only occurs 25% of the time, if you are trying to sell an item you probably want to be in a situation to take advantage of the sell when it comes up but things happen. as for theft i will agree that its generally not gonna happen, if it does then its after some research and is done when an individual is away so the the theft is more untraceable. mostly magical item theft will come in the form of nuckle-head adventures who got too lose and someone lifted the item from them. i institued the percentages in reverse order for the black market because lesser items are more likely to be used by the theif. a thief who would no longer benefit from the lower level items is probably going to not get enough of a return on the time spent to aquire the item. hope that made sense, i plan on incorporating some stuff mentioned. keep em comin though the more advice the better. ild like to introduce a system that incorporates selling an item for more then its worth or getting shafted on a sale as well. appraise checks with opposed bluff and sense motives checks will come into play here. the world is full of unscrupulouse dealers.
dizfactor 10-10-06, 03:28 AM	I used to use the system of having very little for sale off the shelf and allowing magic items to be created on consignment, but that ends up taking so long it usually just annoys the players. This is an issue of managing expectations. How is it that they've come to expect that the items they want will be available for sale, or, to put it another way, why do your players feel entitled to have the magic items they want on demand? Have you looked at how long it takes to craft a masterwork weapon or suit of armor? To get your +1 full plate (which, according to the random tables in the DMG is the most common magical armor available) takes almost a year. Most low-level adventurers who want +1 full plate will die before it is finally ready. Then they best get used to not having +1 full plate, unless they should happen to find a suit somewhere that fits them.
Kaligrad 10-10-06, 01:21 PM	Have you looked at how long it takes to craft a masterwork weapon or suit of armor? To get your +1 full plate (which, according to the random tables in the DMG is the most common magical armor available) takes almost a year. Most low-level adventurers who want +1 full plate will die before it is finally ready. I will admit, building a suit of full plate armor would take nearly a year, but that's what buying a set is for. Refitting can be done in less than one week, and enchanting it is only a day.
mike_beavers 10-10-06, 06:04 PM	I have magic shops only in large cities and the inventory that they have is already set by me to begin with. players may come in and see what is available. If there is something available they will either try to buy or trade other items. the owners of such shops are picky about what they want. If the trade is consumated then the items go out of the inventory and the new items are put in the inventory. The inventory is then added to and subtracted representing other buyers for the next time the players may show up there. As for protection the shops are usually protected by a guild of either mages, sorcerers or priests who work in conjunction with the owners for fee or donation and sometimes the thieves guild gets in the act also. In general however if the players want a specific item they either would commission it or do research on where a possible thing might exist
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-10-06, 06:47 PM	Any town that could host a hardware store could have a mundane weapons, armor, or alchemical supply store. A city that would have a museum or High Quality jewelry would probably have low end magic items, the +1s and such, maybe a +2 occasionally. National Capitols and the like might go a step above this; +3 weapons and armor available for the very important people in the nation. Lastly, true planar metropoli, like Sigil, Dis, or Union have epic items--somewhere. Of course, the easy answer is just to check out the god of business and his massive and awesome collection of expensive items. If you can't immediately buy it, you can definitely order it from the mage crafters themselves.
Burgundy Lotus 10-10-06, 07:04 PM	I agree with Amon_WinterfallIV, the bigger the town the more powerful the magic found there, most towns will not have an actual store per se but if there is an adventurers guild or semi-retired wizard in the town then they have the means to get stuff made. Now all my PCs make sure they have the craft feats so that between them they can make almost anything for cheap if they got the time.
pres_man 10-10-06, 07:15 PM	Here is what I did in my most recent game. PC: Does the shop have item X (item X being a bit more expensive item)? DM: *rolls percentile 90% chance they do not* Nope, not on hand. But they will take a commission to craft it. PC: Dang, we are getting ready to set sail again in a couple of days. DM: They offer to take half payment and hold the item for up to one year. After one year of not being claimed it becomes their property. This the standard contract they make for most "adventurers". PC: I bet! They don't lose anything, and gain items to sell from dead adventurers. DM: :devil:
Jagd44 10-10-06, 07:21 PM	I use what I call the 2/3 rule. All my players are the same level, so it makes the rule rather consistant. I use the Character Wealth by Level Table in the DMG on page 135 and multiply the amount that corresponds with the party level by .67. No player may buy any one item that that exceeds that amount or modify an item that would exceed that amount. Naturally, the maximum amount increases as the characters level up. All mundane, masterwork, and magical items under the maximum amount may be purchased while in town.
Pandaemoni 10-10-06, 07:31 PM	Depends on how much you care about the economy. You can build each shop of each town the PC's visit individually, and pick out specific masterwork and magical items they'd have for sale. You can develop templates of shops, with vague gp limits on what items are carried. You can simply go by the gp caps in the DMG to determine what's available in any town, and say that any item under the cap can be bought there. Or, you can build a huge metropolis, say that anything is available for the right price, and ignore the whole thing. You forgot at least one option: You can not care about the economy and decide that anything below X gp (based on the size of the town) can be found easily and that anything above X must be specially crafted to order, and require that your PCs search for an appropriate crafter. Such a crafter may or may not exist in that place, at my option, and may or may not be willing to craft the item (let alone at the price the DMG says). You then roleplay trying to convince him to spend his hard earned XP and time in exchange for gold. For a major metropolis, I tend to set X at 10,000 gold. 10,001 and above, and I usually require the object be made to order (or found as treasure). (Except wands, wands are not all that commonly sold in my games, especially clerical wands.) The same goes for sales. You can easily sell any item that has a market price of up to 20,000 gold (so you get 10,000 gp, half-price), but greater than that you have to organize a special sale or auction.