Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-17-05, 11:49 AM	I was just wondering for those that go though character creation the first game session how long does it take your players to crank out their 1st level, random attribute, strait from the PHB characters? Is the process fairly quick and painless, or is it drug out like a Russian novel. Does everyone but one person get done quickly while he/she hems and haws and approaches every facet of the process like its a life and death decision with nations hanging in the balance.
Draco Strang 03-17-05, 11:54 AM	I have my characters bring their sheets to the play session pre-made, and I peruse them. Unless it's a new guy, and then we sit down. However, I've gotten to the point that if I don't roll stats (use elite array, or point buy) I can crank someone out, from BAB to equipment list in about 15 minutes. Of course, backstory and little details take about a week of thinking in my off moments (i.e. shower, in the car, and during boring class periods).
Hero of Sshamath 03-17-05, 11:56 AM	I've found that players that have greater experience tend to finish more quickly, in general, I devote the whole first session to PC creation and tweaks, backstory and whatnot. But, usually everyone is finished within a few hours (3-4)....As a side-note: I usually require a full and detailed backstory on characters, because it helps the PC flesh them out and decide what skills/feats/classes/race to choose. But, typically I let the players help one another once they have finished, that can help the process happen more quickly.
Serious Games Only 03-17-05, 12:03 PM	My players are incompotent when it comes to character creation, I need to walk them through it every time we do it, each player at a time. I like to have them come to my house indivdually at some point before the session to make it but its not always possable.
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-17-05, 12:15 PM	It depends on how much time you give them. People will react to a strong leader. I require at least a general character idea before they show up. If the don't have a backstory and a sheet done, they can start when they arrive. I start running as soon as one character has a backstory and a sheet ready. The unprepared and fence sitters (those who debate whether to take improved bull rush or improved overrun for 4 hours) quickly realize that their indecision is being punished by a late start in the game. The other PCs are building contacts, discovering plot, and earning xp while they contort their minds to min/max every detail. One player stalled so long the rest of the party hit 2nd level (4 or 5 hours!) and then insisted I let him start at 2nd like everyone else. I pointed out that everyone else started at first level and almost five hours ago. He's come with a fully fleshed out character concept and (usually) a sheet ever since.
CzarGarrett 03-17-05, 12:29 PM	By myself, I can get a character made with all the info necessary and a fairly comprehensive backstory in about 30 minutes. In a group as a player, it'll be about 45 minutes without much of a backstory.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-17-05, 12:41 PM	The reason I'm asking is because I'm looking for a fair amount of time to give. I'm considering giving 300 xp bonus to everyone handing in a legible, correct, complete character within 1 hour of attribute rollup. That's the carrot... should there be a stick? A penalty for the guy who takes 6 hours or longer? IMO I don't think so. I hate playing the heavy.
Razoreface 03-17-05, 12:45 PM	I'm about like Czar. If I have to do the concept too, it's about a half hour. Purely the numbers take me about 10 minutes.
clarkvalentine 03-17-05, 12:46 PM	That's the carrot... should there be a stick? A penalty for the guy who takes 6 hours or longer? IMO I don't think so. I hate playing the heavy. Almost universally, no, punishing your players is almost always a bad idea. Creating characters takes a long time often because players know they'll be stuck with them, so they want to do it right. A good way to speed things up is to houserule that players can make changes to anything at their first level up - players aren't as likely to agonize for 45 minutes over Point Blank Shot vs. Power Attack if they know they can correct a what turns out to be poor choice later.
sandgriffin 03-17-05, 12:51 PM	only about 15-20min for my players sense they avoid backstory like the plague
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-17-05, 12:54 PM	First, I want to apologize to the Op as I didn't answer your question in my first post. It takes me between 20 and 30 minutes to finish a sheet for a character whose concept I have already worked out. Creating characters takes a long time often because players know they'll be stuck with them, so they want to do it right. A good way to speed things up is to houserule that players can make changes to anything at their first level up - that way, the pressure to get it exactly optimized right off the bat isn't as great, so players aren't as likely to agonize for 45 minutes over Point Blank Shot vs. Power Attack. Nothing Clark said is patently wrong. Are players stuck with the first characters they make? That depends on the DM. I let you drop a character and take a one level under the party average penalty. That is rarely done, however. Get your players in the habit of working out the characters before the first session. If they want to take 12 hours to make a character, that's fine so long as they aren't keeping the rest of the group behind or wasting your time as a DM. If you need a few hours to work out a character for whatever reason, do it on your own time. As I normally don't have have much free time (this week is a bad example, I'm on break and can post all day if I want) I'd prefer to spend it actually running a game rather than staring at the walls while players make characters. They can take care of preparing for the game just like I spend time writing out the adventures.
Lord Ian Stark 03-17-05, 02:16 PM	Our gaming group is quite experienced so there is no character making session BS as it is hard enough to get together as is. Basically at the end of the prior game or whenever we are together prior to starting a new game we do the following... 1.) DM tells us what level we are starting at and what all the things we can't be or do. 2.) The group of characters get together and decide what type of character we are going to play so we have a rounded out party not all fighter types or such. 3.) The people that are going to roll there characters do so in front of the DM (and other characters trying to decide if they want to leave there fate up to the, 4D6 drop the lowest die, per stat or just make it easy and do the 28 point buy system.) If we roll we get a free racial feet (FR) so rolling can be good or bad. 4.) We all go home with the type of character we are all going to make and spend the next week (or whenever we can get together and game again) to flesh out your character by building him the way you want too using the WOTC books (Not just core :rolleyes: ). 5.) When we do get together on game night we roll are HD if we are starting above lvl 1 in front of the DM. He then looks at our sheets for a quick error check and writes down all the info he needs on whatever he wants to keep close by like saving throws, AC whatever. 6.) We game. Quite harmless actually and if there are any questions you can call/E-Mail the DM during the week to get clarification. Honestly, if we had to create our characters around everyone else at the same time we would never get them done.
BW0222 03-17-05, 02:21 PM	From RPGA events, no one has even made a character within 15 minutes of being at the table. It takes 5 minutes for an experienced person just to do a point-buy selection of stats. Race, class, skills, saves, equipment, weapons, familiar/animal companion, skills, spell selections, etc., etc. Most can't do it within an hour even with help. If folks show up without a character, they get a pre-gen or are asked to come back for the next slot (4-1/2 hours later) if they want to make up a character. For home games, who cares how long it takes? Typically, you come up with character creation rules, e-mail these around, and let them make up characters at home. Spending time at the table making characters, leveling-up, selecting spell lists, etc. is a complete waste of valuable gaming time. And forcing players to make up characters in a few minutes for a campaign which may last years is silly. Let them take their time. Far less chance that they won't like the concept or findout something doesn't work correctly.
Board_Rider 03-17-05, 02:30 PM	If I were you Chewy I would neither punish or reward players on the character creation process. Sure a small XP bonus is nice for well thought out backstories but, as many have already noted, different experiences and players bring differing character creation times. If you continue using "PHB only" character classes and Races only the expect the time to shorten as the players gain experiencew with this process. As a side note, remember that with the 3.x introduction to PrCs means that during the early stages of building a PC it is important to "map" out needs so that a the PrC pre-reqs can be met. This can be a pain. Usually the PC creation process varies for me from 15 minutes (Tank Builds) to close to an hour or more if I can't decide. Of course, between me and the other guys, we have a LOT of books and it may take a while to make a decision as we allow classes from the "Complete" books. You could try having the Players create two PCs during the first gaming session. That way if the current one dies there is a quick, pretty much made backup that needs to be leveld up only.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-17-05, 02:38 PM	Personally i can create a first level character in about 5 min. This does a ssume two things, one I am just making its stats a back story would take long, maybe say another ten min, and 2 that this is either piont buy and/or I already have my stats rolled determined. (rolling dice takes laong then piont buy) i however am the only one in my group with that kind of speed. I find for the most part it takes my party around 2-3 hours to make characters and maybe a weak to two weaks for my to start getting backstories. I find that the higher the level the longer it takes to create. This is true for me as well, but it still only takes me about 1/2 hour to create a 20th level wizard. For any one else in my party that 20th level wizard would take most likely 4-6 hours. What is the difference between me and my party? I DM. They do not. For every PC they make I'm going to be making 10-20 NPCs. Their characters are the stares of the show, my characters are they extras and side kicks and the helpful freinds. there is only one NPC that gets anywhere near the attention the PCs get and that is the BBEG, but he always dies. I as DM should be able to crank out NPCs like a factory that is really part of being a good DM. Let your players take them time they want for their characters, help them when they ask for it. And be understanding when they want to change their PCs around. Rember to be truly memorable those PCs have to be something the player will like and enjoying playing for extended periods of time. Its a game it is sapposed to be fun. never rush someones PC becuase then they feel rushed and that isn't fun.
Arrowhen 03-17-05, 03:03 PM	Typically, you come up with character creation rules, e-mail these around, and let them make up characters at home. Right. Because NOBODY EVER plays with people who don't have easy access to e-mail, are new to the game, are new to the system, don't have a PHB, have a 3.0 PHB when you're running 3.5, don't have one of the books you allow classes from, etc., etc. Spending time at the table making characters, leveling-up, selecting spell lists, etc. is a complete waste of valuable gaming time. Personally, I don't feel that any time spent with my fellow gamers is a "waste of valuable gaming time." I like to do character creation as a group because it makes it more likely that the party will be able to work together effectively--"Oh, you're taking feat X? I'll take feat Y, then, and together we can..." Yes, it means a bit of metagaming, but I'll take that over a party of five antisocial loners any day.
StormKnight 03-17-05, 04:01 PM	Err, 20 minutes to figure out your rolls and what you want, then maybe an hour and a half to look all the stats up and write everything down. One of biggest peeves about D&D is how fnerking long it takes to build a character :(
Kakerate 03-17-05, 04:42 PM	If you give them an hour I think they can get it done in that time, but having them work on it before will save time. I use notebook paper and take about 2 or 3 hours just choosing the feats and such that my character will use to best-fit the concept I think up. For instance, I wont take Ironwill unless I want to portray that in my characters personality. I do this part several times before the session inorder to be able to choose which character concept I want to play most. Then I make a general story about how my characters life has been up to this point for the character concept I decide to play as my PC. Once those things are done I add details to the story and try to make it interesting for others to read. I have many character concepts on paper complete with stats feats and the like, but I only spend time making story for the ones I really want to role play. I can play a notebook paper character at the drop of a hat, but I will want to incorporate a character with background story into the game later if it is a long game. A game that lasts 3 sessions isn't worth writing a story for. I think 1 hour is plenty for most people to choose stats and such, but I always want a concept. I like the concept to show in the characters stats, skills and feats. Thats why it takes me like 2-3 hours to come up with a character from scratch. I dont even roll for stats, I just give myself what I want and ask the DM if its ok. I've played using the commoner stats 11,11,11,10,10,10 and 13,12,11,10,9,8 and had plenty of fun. I have even had characters with stats lower than commoner because it fit the concept I came up with[ As an example an Orc - age 54 was one of my characters ]. Infact most of my characters are just slightly above commoner stat wise. A ranger is awsome with the 13,12,...ect commoner stat block because they get feats that require high dex and stuff without haveing to qualify for the feat to use it. And everyone trusts me when I make a character because I dont have 'questionable' stats. I dont think I have ever just given myself a 17 and an 18 on the same character ever, yet it is common to see that on the other players sheets, and sometimes they roll stats untill they get two high stats..for hours. I mean is power that important to them? Must be because none of them can roleplay to save their ass. Its sad when one of them exclaims they got 3 18s. Its like they think they have 'achieved' something. Do you think it makes the game better to have all 18s? If it does then why am I still having fun with commoner stats? I dont think having high stats makes the game more fun, but they must. The DM will just make the battles more difficult and give the monsters better stats if we all had 18s. All you accomplish is giving the DM more work to do when you make a character that is extremely powerfull so what is the point? 1 hour is plenty for a character with no real concept, and I suggest using the elite array for stats as letting them roll untill they get the stats they want creates more work for you. Make them write up character ideas before they come if possible, and I wouldn't use the exp bonus because it isn't neccessary. I often start the game at level 3 for my PC's because leveling up to levels 1-3 happens quickly and takes time out of the game, plus you can start with a better character concept when you get 3 starting levels to plan it out.
olshanski_home 03-17-05, 04:56 PM	20 minutes to 35 minutes. Most of that time is spent pondering the name.
Lord Ian Stark 03-17-05, 05:10 PM	20 minutes to 35 minutes. Most of that time is spent pondering the name. LOL the name does take a lot for me too sometimes. What is all this, "You have X minutes to complete your character. Upon completion of said time put your pencils down and pass your sheets to the right." People this is a friggen game not a test. Why limit the time your character has to expand his mind and come up with a great character that he will love, cherish and honor until death do them part. If I came to your game table and you acted like this I would just get up and move on. You people are forgeting about what it is to play this game. How much love can you have for a character you threw together in 10 min just to get the game going. Did your DM have this same time limit idea to make an adventure? If so don't expect anything to deep. Like I said about my group, we have at least a week to look at the books and watch movies, read books, whatever sparks your imagination to create a character you want to play with blood, sweat and tears. I like to look at a certain Prestige class thats ok with the DM and his world and build my character accordingly from stats to an RP background for it. How many people enter college and know what they want to do in life so they take the appropriate prereqs to qualify for that career. No differance here. Does everyone know what they want to do when they grow up or first create there character? No of course not, but for those who do it takes time and planning.
Callista 03-17-05, 05:21 PM	My first, 1st level character took me six hours to create; nowadays, I can do the mechanics in fifteen minutes, twenty if it's a spellcaster (starting spells to pick), thirty if it's a wizard. However, backstory, appearance and name will usually take an hour or so, depending on how involved I feel like being. Usually I think of these beforehand, but write them down after I'm done with the mechanics. Does everyone but one person get done quickly while he/she hems and haws and approaches every facet of the process like its a life and death decision with nations hanging in the balance. Actually? It is. :) For the game world, anyway. But the first level isn't so hard; there are basic feats and skills and items every character needs, just based on class. First level just involves picking out the basics for your character (spell and fighting styles, of course, also need to be decided at first level... you can't turn that 10 DEX first level fighter into an archer, after all.)
deduke 03-17-05, 05:32 PM	Hwat i do is have an initial meeting to discuss character concepts and discuss how the guys know each other or why thay are at a certain location at a given time. When everyone has a character concept which fits the party (so no assasins and paladins in the same party) they all go home and work on the concept, after a week or so we start playing. All of my players have the PHB and maybe some splatbooks but we see each other often enough to share them among the group so everyone can read every book they want. This way everyone has prepared his character for the next few lvl's and maybe taken the right pre-reqs for a prc, levelling up will not cost much time this way and everyone will be happy with thei char. If anyone needs any help they can always ask me. this method works very good for me, i like to take my time creating a character since i motsly will be playing it for over a year. regards deDuke
PurdueDave 03-17-05, 05:51 PM	As a group with not a good idea of what your making before you start, probably about an hour or two unless it's a really experienced group of players.
BW0222 03-17-05, 06:00 PM	>>Typically, you come up with character creation rules, e-mail these around, >>and let them make up characters at home. >Right. Because NOBODY EVER plays with people who don't have easy >access to e-mail, Then you print off the guidelines and give it to them over cofee, at school, or at the mall. Alternately, you phone them. Say, "Joe, it's a 28-point purchase system, we are in Greyhawk, just south of the Bandit Kingdoms, evil alignments aren't permitted, etc." >are new to the game, are new to the system, Then invite the new player for cofee a few days ahead of time and spend a couple of hours going through the character creation and developing a background. You can even do a simple one-on-one to introduce them to the setting and their background. >don't have a PHB, have a 3.0 PHB when you're running 3.5, Then they can borrow one, come over one night and use yours, make up a 3.0 characters and arrive early to talk about the adjustments, or you and your friends can each put in $5 for an early Xmas or birthday present. If a campaign is going to last even six months, you'll spend more than that on pizza and pop in the first month! >don't have one of the books you allow classes from, etc., etc. If you suspect that it is going to be an issue (i.e. your players don't have the books) then just say standard classes only. >>Spending time at the table making characters, leveling-up, selecting spell >>lists, etc. is a complete waste of valuable gaming time. >Personally, I don't feel that any time spent with my fellow gamers is >a "waste of valuable gaming time." I do. If players have taken the time each week to clear their schedules and come out to game, I owe it to them to be prepared. I want to get through the adventure and see what the DM has planned. If folks have rearranged dates, work, school, etc. to be there on Tuesday at 7pm to play, I'd be rather upset if folks arrive late or don't show (without warning), don't have their character sheets ready, spent time looking for spells, etc. After the age of about 16, it's almost impossible to get five or six folks in the same room for four hours each week for a year. Folks have lives outside of D&D. Work, school, girl friends, family, vacations, etc. are all going to take priority over gaming. Not making the best use of time is insulting to everyone else who judgled their time and who are ready to play. >I like to do character creation as a group >because it makes it more likely that the party will be able to work together >effectively--"Oh, you're taking feat X? I'll take feat Y, then, and together >we can..." In my current home campaign, I have five other players and I'm not even sure what classes and levels other players are (except our druid). I know one cleric-type can brew potions and the druid casts spells in animal form. I don't need to know and it is equally fun seeing cool things in game. I only know them by names and general abilities. >Yes, it means a bit of metagaming, but I'll take that over a party >of five antisocial loners any day. You can talk, joke, and have fun while playing. You can talk about non-game stuff during breaks, before or after the game, or if food is brought out. There are lots of social activities - bridge, many sports, scouts, church, etc., etc. However, showing up late or unprepared is just plain rude.
The Great Dugano 03-17-05, 06:10 PM	I've run LOTS of first sessions by now (I ended plenty cause I saw a problem around 5th or 9th level), and what I do at this point (with the same group over a 4 year period) is to tell everybody to show up at the same time. Then I give them the option to start in one to four towns away from where I plan on bringing the group together, telling them where they need to end up to form a party (but not how). While others are showing up and making characters, I run the quickest ones through character-building encounters. (There's a post on the "What's a DM to DO?" board about a questionairre for PCs that would give enlightening encounters, such as what to do when somebody obviously stronger than you drinks your ale). That way, the last person to finish should have a well-defined backstory worthy of giving an XP award. The others that didn't want to go thru the backstory stage got to actually roleplay a few encounters. Lastly at the end of the first two sessions I allow for changes to the base character (the decisions they made creating the character) ... if they argue for it well. One other thing, I like the idea of rolling randomly for stats, but I've ended up in too many games where one of the characters had a total of ... like 25 points according to the standard point buy system, most average to 32-37, and there is one player (who I swear, I need to take to Vegas), that consistently gets 60+ points worth of stats on his random rolls (that I watched him make). This is actually causing a huge problem in my campaign at the moment (one player with a 71 point character, that's right, I watched him roll 3 18s, 2 16s, and an 11). Randomness sucks for everyone...Use point buy methods in the DMG so everyone starts out at the same point. Intragroup conflict is resolved a lot earlier. Otherwise, you get a bunch of players yealling at the one that has 71 points at 9th level and sheets get ripped up....it stinks.
Nom 03-17-05, 06:26 PM	As a side note, remember that with the 3.x introduction to PrCs means that during the early stages of building a PC it is important to "map" out needs so that a the PrC pre-reqs can be met. This can be a pain.I typically ditch all that rubbish, except for requirements that are so obvious to the PrC that anyone interested will have taken them anyway. Essentially, those pre-reqs boil down to a level requirement. My players qualify for a PrC when they (1) satisfy the level requirement and (2) I let them. As for creation time, I can build a monster "character" in about 30 minutes, including the time to nicely format the HTML and any other notes I'll need to play them; I generally build classed opponents from scratch. For a PC, it can take days / weeks. The numbers are easy; most of the time is spent thinking about the character's style and feel and which mechanics fit this best.
Razoreface 03-17-05, 06:29 PM	From RPGA events, no one has even made a character within 15 minutes of being at the table. It takes 5 minutes for an experienced person just to do a point-buy selection of stats. Race, class, skills, saves, equipment, weapons, familiar/animal companion, skills, spell selections, etc., etc. Most can't do it within an hour even with help. To me that really sounds like people who go to RPGA events can't make characters, or can't shut up and make a character at least. But I'd tend to go with the first one, if they need help to make a d20 character. Even the slower guys in my group can make spellcasters in less than an hour. The fast guys who spend a few minutes humming and hawing about stats can put out a fighter in ten minutes.
Lord Ian Stark 03-17-05, 06:44 PM	The fast guys who spend a few minutes humming and hawing about stats can put out a fighter in ten minutes. I think it's a quality over quanity issue. I can crap any core class character out in a few minutes. If thats the way your group makes players than I would love to see how the DM makes games. :rolleyes: Like was said above, making a character is more than just putting numbers in the designated slots on your character sheet. I would hope the average gamer cares more about his character than just quickly filing in all the spots on his sheet so he can yell "Done!" first. But hey if you play your game where there is no RP or character development outside of feats and skills then so be it.
Board_Rider 03-17-05, 06:47 PM	I typically ditch all that rubbish, except for requirements that are so obvious to the PrC that anyone interested will have taken them anyway. Essentially, those pre-reqs boil down to a level requirement. My players qualify for a PrC when they (1) satisfy the level requirement and (2) I let them. Well, I agree. To some extent it does depend on level. However say if something requires 4 feats. Completely doable by 3rd level if a Human Fighter is taken. However if this "route" isn't taken it may take a quite a few more levels. But, yeah, it invariably boils down to DM permission.
allenchan 03-17-05, 06:49 PM	20 minutes, tops. 10+ minutes spent buying all the assorted junk like bedrolls, torches, etc, and figuring out weight, etc. A 20th level character that Ive made for the board contests normally takes me about three hours fine-tuning stuff (again, mostly equipment, everything else is just fill in the blank)
The Listener 03-17-05, 10:52 PM	It depends for me. I can make a character from blank sheet to fully fleshed out character in about 45 minutes if I'm careful and thoughtful and alone. If I am with friends, however, it quicky jumps up to 2 hours. I love bouncing ideas off of people and seeing what they are doing.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-17-05, 11:51 PM	Almost universally, no, punishing your players is almost always a bad idea. I agree. The whole carrot/stick idea was given to me by another DM. I grimace at the idea of "punishing" anyone. Just ask my kid. He gets away with murder :D . I like rewards though. The original idea as presented to me, was make it a contest; 1st guy gets 300xp, 2nd gets 150xp, and the 3rd-75xp. I rejected that thought outright. I didn't want to hose the guy wanting to be the wizard over the guy wanting to be the fighter.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-18-05, 12:09 AM	Err, 20 minutes to figure out your rolls and what you want, then maybe an hour and a half to look all the stats up and write everything down. One of biggest peeves about D&D is how fnerking long it takes to build a character :( I agree sometimes it makes me want to pull my eyes out, but then I'll get over it... just barely :D . I'll probably just bite the bullet, provide all the particular campaign creation rules, and let the players point buy at home (Did I mention I hate point buy. I like the random blessings and hosings the dice bestow). Besides point buy will let them have more control over the process.
LordHell 03-18-05, 12:15 AM	5 minutes tops with PCgen, a computer, and a printer. Rough background in 30 minutes, detailed 4 page + background submitted next week.
Razoreface 03-18-05, 04:58 AM	I think it's a quality over quanity issue. I can crap any core class character out in a few minutes. Pay attention to the question, and get an answer. How long does it take to do a level one core class character? Even at level one it doesn't matter how many class books you have, you can't use any of it... and even non-core, there really just isn't that much you can do at level one. For any even moderately experienced D&D player, the longest part of creating a character sheet should be the time it takes to write it out. You shouldn't have to look up every stat and skill, those are things you should know from playing. My very first d20 character didn't even take me an hour to fill the sheet, from dice rolls to profs. Characters aren't exactly complicated. If the average creation time for a d20 character is really into the hours, no wonder people thing that anything more involved is an impossibly hard system. Wizards are supposed to be the slowest to make... so seriously. How long does it seriously take you to roll out dice, and pick what, six or seven level one spells, a familiar, at most two feats and 28 skill points, and spend at most 25gp? We're not talking rocket science.
digoraccoon 03-18-05, 08:53 AM	I can probably make a good 1st level character in about 20-25 minutes, depending on what books are allowed (the more books, the longer time spent picking out stuff). Backgrounds take longer though, at least 2 hours for anything decent.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-18-05, 09:53 AM	Wizards are supposed to be the slowest to make... so seriously. How long does it seriously take you to roll out dice, and pick what, six or seven level one spells, a familiar, at most two feats and 28 skill points, and spend at most 25gp? We're not talking rocket science. It shouldn't, but I've seen it unbearable dragged out . "...should I put the 8 in cha or wis... should I take floating disk or magic missile... should keep this up till the DM wants to die or actually goes through with it and hangs himself with piano wire..." Perhaps I should have asked what are individual DM patient limits for making 1st level, out of PHB, random attribute characters? When should a DM say "Ok you've had enough time, let's wrap it up and play?"...3 hours, 6 hours, 2 days. Some players are like congress and money... the more you give them, the more they'll spend. I'm starting to think 2 hours is enough time, but like I said I'll go with character creation at home with a point buy.
Abulafia 03-18-05, 11:40 AM	As a player, I'm a bleeder. Every new character takes a loooooong time (like, hours). I agonize over everything -- name, background, motivations, etc. As a DM, it's pretty mechanical -- either 1) straight out of the DMG or MM (for grunts and nonimportant NPCs); 2) as 1, with minimal changes (for slightly more important NPCs); or 3) Fully-custom BBEG. 1's take essentially no time; 2's might take 5 min or so. BBEG's take longer, but tend to develop over the course of a campaign. I don't have to have him 100% ready from the get-go. Don't punish players for taking longer. Inexperienced players take a little longer. Dumber (sorry) players take longer. It's to be expected. As for more experienced players, I've seen good & bad players who develop characters quickly, but I've never seen a bad player who agonizes over character creation. Just make sure that the agony comes from character development, not min-max analysis.
Razoreface 03-18-05, 02:37 PM	Perhaps I should have asked what are individual DM patient limits for making 1st level, out of PHB, random attribute characters? Most games I've ever been in were the first two.. mostly because I prefer 1st level starts, so go for those kind of games, and non-PHB core classes are pretty rare, so the only non-core you really have to think of that early is feats, mostly ones you don't qualify for though. And yeah, one guy I played with for years would come to first sessions having forgot to make a character, and another forgot the point buy, so wouldn't have his sheet. But most of them would be more like "crap I just died. I have another concept already, I can have stats in a half hour."
MageofMyth 03-18-05, 03:20 PM	A few minutes to roll stats and decide on a class. Then 2 to 4 days to come up with a character background; typed 4 to 20, single-spaced pages. Another day to proofread the background and do the actual sheet. Let us say a week for good measure. I have made characters sheet first, but always loath them by about the second game. I must have a good background to enjoy and role-play a character. I have never used point buy, if used it would probably add at least a day, probably two so I could read how to use it and play with all the math combinations.
Titan W 03-18-05, 03:35 PM	I have a ton (Liek 40-50 character ideas in my head... so am always mkaign characters... and in this practice have nealy memorized the PHB... so can do it form memory in about 3 minutes... plus however long i takes me to write out the backstory... if I use more than one set of rolls it can take up to 5-6 mintues... that's about it... Then again I've also hand coppied the standarad character sheet about 15 times... Am I waht you might call eccentric?
trapspringer 03-18-05, 04:13 PM	From scratch to finish, a fully filled-out, well organized, and legible character takes me 15 minutes. My players require 45min -> 1 hour.
Cymraegmorgan 03-18-05, 05:29 PM	Personally, I don't feel that any time spent with my fellow gamers is a "waste of valuable gaming time." I like to do character creation as a group because it makes it more likely that the party will be able to work together effectively--"Oh, you're taking feat X? I'll take feat Y, then, and together we can..." Yes, it means a bit of metagaming, but I'll take that over a party of five antisocial loners any day. ABSOFLOGGINLUTELY!! My group of players make all creation decisions a group/social thing. Everyone weighs in on everyone else's character as each development takes place. Alignments are discussed in committee to see if everything fits. My four players usually take about five hours or more to create their party, but you can guarantee, from a roleplaying perspective, that they are tight.
Blairconz 03-18-05, 06:23 PM	Depends on the rolls and the party, but I can produce a character in 15 minutes but if I really want to do him justice, more like a week, deliberating on this, that and the other. Depends how quickly everyone wants things to happen.
Abulafia 03-18-05, 06:26 PM	I should probably add that many players enjoy making characters as much or more than actually playing. Another reason not to limit prep time.
Deflare 03-19-05, 01:54 AM	The amount of time depends on the player- mainly their experience and the character they're playing. If I'm creating a single PHB character- no fancy races, classes, or items- then it takes me 15-20 minutes. Some of my fellow players take about 30 minutes. Newbies can take an hour, mainly because of all the coaching and book-flipping they need. I I'm making and unconventional character (monstrous race, not 1st level, non-PHB classes, magic items, etc.) it can take me an hour or two. The process is greatly speeded for non-Epic, non-monstrous characters by my char. sheet generator. The main thing that delays character creation is book-flipping. The reason unconventional characters take me so long is because I'm flipping through 4+ books, looking for the stuff I need. However, with conventional characters, I have so much stuff memorized that I don't need to flip much; for example, I know the hit dice for all the PHB classes off the top of my head, and I can easily figure out ability modifiers. The thing that takes the longest for me is deciding the equipment loadout; I try to load as much gear onto my character as I can, so I get high Strength no matter what class I am. I'm another person that likes making characters. I just love the fact that no two characters are ever the same.
Tifus Artwin 03-19-05, 05:20 AM	i can put out a well rounded character in about 30 minutes with about a page or two of background, more detailed backgrounds take me time though, generaly around a week. Ever 5 lvls or so, add another 20-30 minutes. If i have a name or several names picked out, i can almost cut 20 minutes off of the creation time, as that for me atleast, is ALWAYS the hardest part of any character. My players on the other hand, the fastest one takes an hour to however long i give her, the other two, until i tell them "ok, you have had enough time, let me see what you got" (which is about 3 weeks after the first player is done). And on a side note, anyone that can figure out THAC0 can make a 3.x character in about 20 minutes flat with no probleme. beleive me, i know ive played with it, and the new system, and as much as i loved AD&D (what i was first brought into the game on) i dont think i could go back to that nightmare again. Tifus
Uberman 03-19-05, 05:27 AM	The hardest part is coming up with an interesting character concept that A) You want to play B) Works in the campaign setting, and C) You WANT to play. (yes, i said it twice.) Once that's done, most experienced players (At least the few dozen I know) can make a low level character in 20-30 minutes, including some personality/RP ideas. Heck, the number crunching/feat selection for most of us takes less time than the dreaded final touch.... The most important space on the character sheet... "Character name" On the other hand, give me time and I can spend litterally WEEKS tweaking out every last copper piece, skill point, feat, spell, etc, until my character is EXACTLY how I want.
astute1 03-19-05, 08:14 AM	It kinda depends, but doing the "crunch" stuff usually takes me just about 15 minutes for a first level guy that I care about. I use Irony Games online die roller (which simultaneously emails the rolls to you and your DM, so you can't cheat them.) Then, I have an excel spreadsheet that does all the chargen math and outputs a really good character sheet. Coming up with the background might take me an hour or so. I've always got 4 or 5 characters I'd like to play kinda fleshed out in my mind. For example, if I got into a new campaign today, my next character would be either a Valenar Elf Monk with Double Scimitar and Whirling Steel Strike, a Half-Elf Bard Con Artist who dresses like a pirate, a Dragonmarked Human Noble of House Orien who makes a living as a spy (that one assumes Eberron), or a Dwarf Fighter who tanks up as much as possible. OK, so, I have pretty good backgrounds for all those guys already. All I'd have to do is write them down.
Aricandor 03-19-05, 09:11 AM	Hm. Took me 20 minutes to yank out a 3rd level character with both name and backstory. Only played him for about an hour though... Geez, must've been the most worthlessly spent 20 minutes of my life... My players take forever though. One of my players is strictly unable to think up names. He's got 2-3 names which he cycles through unless I tell him "think of a new name!". Another just refuses to play un-templated. Two are useless with rules. The fifth must have a solid concept before even thinking about making a character. Pirate, frog-human hybrid, whatever..
Gnal 03-19-05, 10:09 AM	I was just wondering for those that go though character creation the first game session how long does it take your players to crank out their 1st level, random attribute, strait from the PHB characters? About 2 months before the end of one campaign and the start of another, I hand everyone a sheet and tell them that these are the character creation rules for the next campaign. Via email they decide who gets to choose what class, etc. and then they work on it. With 6 players, I require at least 1 Warrior(fighter preferred), 1 Divine, 1 Arcane, and 1 Sneaky. We usually end up with 1 - Arcane, 1 - Sneaky, 2 Clerics and 2 Warriors. *IF* there is a TPK, and we actually had one of those (the players were *REALLY* STUPID one session), I give them the sheet and we discuss at the table who is going to play what class and then at the next session we start playing. Sessions are every other Sunday for 6 hours.
Chewbacca's LightSaber 03-19-05, 10:53 AM	I use Irony Games online die roller (which simultaneously emails the rolls to you and your DM, so you can't cheat them.) Thank you so much astute1. I found that die roller and it's totally cool. I don't like point buy as I mentioned and this will let me verify attribute rolls made away from the table. I played around with it and it seems random enough for my likes. I wonder if my player who perpetually rolls at least one 5 or 6 for every character will continue to do so with this system :D .