Average army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Average army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
allenchan
05-08-04, 05:38 AM What would you DMs consider the average size of an army, and the levels of the people in it?
Tenzhi
05-08-04, 07:04 AM The average army for what size city/country?

A good-sized mountain stronghold like, say, the Outlaws of Liangshan Marsh had might be able to muster up a force 10,000 or more strong at a moment's notice.

A good guestimate might be that a given town could usually muster an immediate force equal to 10-20% of its population. Given more time, as many as 50-70% might be likely.
allenchan
05-08-04, 11:17 PM Ah, thats a good way to go about it. *Thinks* I was wondering about a char who has about 46,000 followers (Leadership), and what they'd be able to take over.
trapspringer
05-09-04, 03:46 PM The DMG covers this. It points out that most of the foot soldiers have half spears and padded armor, and will pretend to day after taking any amount of damage. They have three hit points, if I remember correctly.
PSchirf
05-09-04, 07:50 PM "Average" is a hard term to define. The Roman army of the 4th century was about 500,000 strong and a volunteer force. Then again, there are legal records of the appropriate period indicating that any force over 20 armed men should be considered an army. A good way to decide on army size is to check the number of men who fought in historical battles. 2,000 to 5,000 per side make for a battle of note.
Asta Kask
05-10-04, 05:55 AM This depends very much on what kind of world you live in. If you have a strong, centralized government, you can easily run up to five zeroes. The largest army fielded by the romans was the one that was annihiliated at Cannae, consisting of eight double legions, or 88 000 men. The Chinese regularly used armies consisting of hundreds of thousands of people (the chronicles say millions, but I suspect that this includes both non-combatants and poetic license.) Armies of this size requires a good logistics service, or the army will starve.

On the other hand, during the feudal era an army of 2 000 people was considered large. And the Swedish army under Banér and Torstensson during the 30-years war rarely exceeded 40 000 people. So it really depends on what kind of campaign you're playing in.

If it's a generic High Middle Age Fantasy thingy, I'd say that an army of 46 000 easily dwarfs the armies of most medium countries. Militia will probably be commoners with spears and padded armor. Professional armies will be warriors with better equipment. Elite units could well include PC classes (mostly Fighters, but Rangers for scouting units, and a few Paladins for religious orders).

You'll also have to remember the presence of magic. Tight formations are horribly vulnerable to spells such as fireball and lightning bolt. Scrying spells removes much of the "fog of war" that makes warfare such a guessing game. Clerical magic means that problems with food and disease can be reduced (although probably not eliminated).
Autosponge
05-10-04, 01:54 PM I think the number of logistic and non-combatant personel it takes to support a soldier is about 8:1. This means there are 8 farmers, crafters, bureaucrats, apothecaries, etc. for each soldier (since soldiers do not produce anything, they only consume and they tend to consume more than the average person). Anything less and either the people or the soldiers go without (soldiers starve if they good, they let the people starve if they are evil). If one goes without long enough there is attrition. So while an army may be able to support itself with 50k strong for a few months, eventually too many die, dessert, or fall ill and the army is reduced closer to its natural size.

If the populace does not support the military, you should inflate the ratio slightly to find it's natural size to demonstrate how many citizens protest and refuse to pay taxes, turn over their foor stuffs, or work in the service of the military and/or its government (populace slightly discontent = 9:1, populace majority opposed maybe as high as 15:1).
UZI
05-10-04, 02:41 PM In ancient republican Rome, Roman Legions typically were about 6000 men. Three of them would make a consular army (IIRC). Add in that the cavalry from the nobility, and other auxiliary troops and you'd probably be around 7000 (tops) for a legion, and about 20000 for an army.

There is a limit in the non-magical classical world on how large an army could be supported by foraging for food off the cultivated land. Presumably these limited are waived in the magical world of D&D with Create Food and Drink spells.

Army size is important, but not as important as what it consists of, how it is tactically positioned, who leads them, and the political environment of where it is operating.

The English with roughly a gross (about 144) of soldiers (mostly archers) destroyed an army or French knights nearly 100 times their size (about 10,000) during the reign of Henry V.

The Greeks (Spartans usually) would defend passes in the hilly uplands of Greece against larger armies with only a handful of soldiers.

Hannibal spent 12 years marching around Italy, but could never challenge Rome directly with his Army of 20,000 he brought over the Alps. He would terrorize, ingratiate himself, or subdue allied cities in Italy (pre-imperial times) and winter his troops there, he would even get reinforcements from the locals. He once parked his army outside Rome and tried to goad them into fighting him openly. However Rome was too big, and the Romans wanted to use their army to punish a city that had allied with him, so they sent an army out by another gate, completely ignoring Hannibal. he had to end his "seige" because even with 20,000 men, he couldn't lay seige to a city of a quarter of a million (which Rome was in that day).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
allenchan 05-08-04, 05:38 AM	What would you DMs consider the average size of an army, and the levels of the people in it?
Tenzhi 05-08-04, 07:04 AM	The average army for what size city/country? A good-sized mountain stronghold like, say, the Outlaws of Liangshan Marsh had might be able to muster up a force 10,000 or more strong at a moment's notice. A good guestimate might be that a given town could usually muster an immediate force equal to 10-20% of its population. Given more time, as many as 50-70% might be likely.
allenchan 05-08-04, 11:17 PM	Ah, thats a good way to go about it. Thinks I was wondering about a char who has about 46,000 followers (Leadership), and what they'd be able to take over.
trapspringer 05-09-04, 03:46 PM	The DMG covers this. It points out that most of the foot soldiers have half spears and padded armor, and will pretend to day after taking any amount of damage. They have three hit points, if I remember correctly.
PSchirf 05-09-04, 07:50 PM	"Average" is a hard term to define. The Roman army of the 4th century was about 500,000 strong and a volunteer force. Then again, there are legal records of the appropriate period indicating that any force over 20 armed men should be considered an army. A good way to decide on army size is to check the number of men who fought in historical battles. 2,000 to 5,000 per side make for a battle of note.
Asta Kask 05-10-04, 05:55 AM	This depends very much on what kind of world you live in. If you have a strong, centralized government, you can easily run up to five zeroes. The largest army fielded by the romans was the one that was annihiliated at Cannae, consisting of eight double legions, or 88 000 men. The Chinese regularly used armies consisting of hundreds of thousands of people (the chronicles say millions, but I suspect that this includes both non-combatants and poetic license.) Armies of this size requires a good logistics service, or the army will starve. On the other hand, during the feudal era an army of 2 000 people was considered large. And the Swedish army under Banér and Torstensson during the 30-years war rarely exceeded 40 000 people. So it really depends on what kind of campaign you're playing in. If it's a generic High Middle Age Fantasy thingy, I'd say that an army of 46 000 easily dwarfs the armies of most medium countries. Militia will probably be commoners with spears and padded armor. Professional armies will be warriors with better equipment. Elite units could well include PC classes (mostly Fighters, but Rangers for scouting units, and a few Paladins for religious orders). You'll also have to remember the presence of magic. Tight formations are horribly vulnerable to spells such as fireball and lightning bolt. Scrying spells removes much of the "fog of war" that makes warfare such a guessing game. Clerical magic means that problems with food and disease can be reduced (although probably not eliminated).
Autosponge 05-10-04, 01:54 PM	I think the number of logistic and non-combatant personel it takes to support a soldier is about 8:1. This means there are 8 farmers, crafters, bureaucrats, apothecaries, etc. for each soldier (since soldiers do not produce anything, they only consume and they tend to consume more than the average person). Anything less and either the people or the soldiers go without (soldiers starve if they good, they let the people starve if they are evil). If one goes without long enough there is attrition. So while an army may be able to support itself with 50k strong for a few months, eventually too many die, dessert, or fall ill and the army is reduced closer to its natural size. If the populace does not support the military, you should inflate the ratio slightly to find it's natural size to demonstrate how many citizens protest and refuse to pay taxes, turn over their foor stuffs, or work in the service of the military and/or its government (populace slightly discontent = 9:1, populace majority opposed maybe as high as 15:1).
UZI 05-10-04, 02:41 PM	In ancient republican Rome, Roman Legions typically were about 6000 men. Three of them would make a consular army (IIRC). Add in that the cavalry from the nobility, and other auxiliary troops and you'd probably be around 7000 (tops) for a legion, and about 20000 for an army. There is a limit in the non-magical classical world on how large an army could be supported by foraging for food off the cultivated land. Presumably these limited are waived in the magical world of D&D with Create Food and Drink spells. Army size is important, but not as important as what it consists of, how it is tactically positioned, who leads them, and the political environment of where it is operating. The English with roughly a gross (about 144) of soldiers (mostly archers) destroyed an army or French knights nearly 100 times their size (about 10,000) during the reign of Henry V. The Greeks (Spartans usually) would defend passes in the hilly uplands of Greece against larger armies with only a handful of soldiers. Hannibal spent 12 years marching around Italy, but could never challenge Rome directly with his Army of 20,000 he brought over the Alps. He would terrorize, ingratiate himself, or subdue allied cities in Italy (pre-imperial times) and winter his troops there, he would even get reinforcements from the locals. He once parked his army outside Rome and tried to goad them into fighting him openly. However Rome was too big, and the Romans wanted to use their army to punish a city that had allied with him, so they sent an army out by another gate, completely ignoring Hannibal. he had to end his "seige" because even with 20,000 men, he couldn't lay seige to a city of a quarter of a million (which Rome was in that day).