Average Party Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Average Party Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GoodmanForge
09-07-04, 09:34 PM Hey there,

Well, I was approached by a few friends and persuaded to run an online, IRC based campaign. Not that I am not interested, but I've been intimidated by the complexity of the rules, especially since I haven't had much actual PnP experience as a player. But circumstances led to this, so....

C'est la vie. My question is about the average party level, for determining EL and treasure rewards...

I'm running a Warcraft RPG campaign, with a party of 4 PCs. One Human, One Night Elf, and Two High Elves.

The Night Elf and the High Elves all have a Level Adjustment of +1. So, I believe the Human should start as a level 2 class right?

Also, since the group is effectively level 2, (Human Level 2 Barbarian, Night Elf level 1/healer level 1, High Elf level 1/runemaster level 1, High Elf level 1/Sorcerer level 1), does that mean the effective EL for a roughly equal level encounter should be 2 as well?

And as far as distributing treasure, should I use the 1st or 2nd level random treasure distribution?
Fixxxer
09-07-04, 09:40 PM Actually, I think you need to look at the ECL (Effective Character Level) of the race, not the LA. The ECL is the LA plus the number of racial hit dice that the race gets. Thus, a creature with an LA of +2 and 3d8+8 hit dice is an ECL 5 race...meaning that with no class levels, a member of this race is equal to a member of a "normal" race with 5 class levels.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, anyhow.
GoodmanForge
09-07-04, 09:52 PM Racial hit dice?

As far as I can tell, the hit dice for these characters is determined exactly as per the standard rules, based on class and level.

These PC races are similar to the Tiefling and other races described in the Forgotten Realms setting. They are not monsters or anything, just slightly more powerful PC races that receive a level adjustment to offset the bonuses they get.
Kobold Horde
09-07-04, 10:13 PM I'm running a Warcraft RPG campaign

Ummm...... than why the DnD boards? :confused:
GoodmanForge
09-08-04, 11:20 AM Because, though the Warcraft RPG is not published by WotC, it is a d20 product that uses DnD 3.5 rules. Also, if you look on the cover of the Warcraft RPG manual, it has that spiffy little design that quite clearly says, "Dungeons and Dragons."

Now, pardon me if I've completely misread any of that information, but I thought asking a DM pertinent question in a DM related discussion forum was the proper thing to do.

I apologize if I come across as snide, but rather then lance me for where I chose to post my question I'd really appreciate it if someone could actually try to help.
Melichor
09-08-04, 11:28 AM Ummm...... than why the DnD boards? :confused:
It's best to just ignore these little comments from people......

You've got it figured right.
Starting the Human at 2nd level keeps the party even and was a good idea.

I've had a couple of players ask about Warcraft, but I can't afford to invest in the books right now myself.
Phrennzy
09-08-04, 12:19 PM Not all races have racial hit dice. Fixxxer was just giving an example.

For instance, a hobgoblin does not have extra racial hit dice, but a bugbear does.

The LA for the PCs you describe sounds like it comes from special abilities, not HD, so you sound like you are on the right track.

Not that I am not interested

That concerns me. DMing is a lot of work - make sure you are up for the commitment, otherwise you aren't going to have fun.
Sildatorak
09-08-04, 01:57 PM Not that I am not interested

Double negative, Phrennzy, he is interested, he's just concerned about his grasp of the rules.

Okay, here is a rough breakdown of what LA does

Your elves have character level 1, ECL 2. Basically any game mechanic that is going to be employed by a PC or NPC, is part of a spell or feat, etc. will treat them as level 1 unless it specifically says that it is based on ECL (I don't even know if any of these exist).

For appropriate levels of wealth, figuring XP from encounters, deciding what challenge rating of creature to throw against them, or pretty much anything where you are acting as DM rather than through an NPC, they are going to be effectively 2. Be cautious with encounters, at least at first. It has been my experience that most LA races are not as powerful as a human who is the same ECL, especially at low levels (low HP is brutal).
GoodmanForge
09-08-04, 02:46 PM Ah, excellent. I appreciate all the help provided, but Sildatorak's post was particularly helpful. I'll try to take the advice to heart.

I'm in the process of fleshing out the rough outline I already created and I hit a roadblock generating encounters and treasure, for precisely the reason I asked my question. But since that has been answered...

I'm still somewhat concerned regarding the pacing of encounters... I don't want them to be too easy, nor too challenging. I imagine I'll have to get a feel for much of this stuff just through experience.

At the risk of oversimplifying, what I intend to do is provide a number of possible plot hooks they can seize on. The creatures, locations, and rewards will all differ of course, but the difficulty should remain, essentially, the same. I may toss a couple CR 1/2 creatures at them at the same time to see how they handle an encounter that is effectively EL 1. They should have little trouble with that group, and I'll try to gradually increase the difficulty, perhaps with a couple of EL 2 groups. If all still seems about right I'd like to cap off the first session with an EL 3... One CR 2 creature and two CR 1/2 creatures.

All of this sounds good, (to my admittedly novice ears), in theory. :\
Phrennzy
09-08-04, 04:35 PM Double negative, Phrennzy, he is interested

Your double negative is proof positive that I was not fully awake when I read the post. :zzz:
Seraph of Babel
09-09-04, 06:26 AM Basically, you got it right, but you could still start at level 1 if you want by building a racial advancement. (See web article on Savage Progression.) I think EL5 can still be handled by a party of 4 level 2 PCs. EL3 may be a bit too easy for a BBEG showdown.

As a side note, I'm wary of IRC campaign (I once did an IRC side quest for one of my PCs.). It can be very slow, esp. when the players drift off to visit other websites, etc. When they are physically present, it's easier to focus their attention. But give it a shot, it may work for you though.
Nom
09-09-04, 07:05 AM The guideline is that 4 level 2 characters (created using standard character creation) should be able to face about 4 EL 2 encounters before exhausting their resources (spells, hp, potions, ...).

An encounter where EL matches party level is not a fair fight (both sides have equal chance of winning). Instead, it is a fight that the PCs should win, but will have to work a bit to do so. If fully equipped, they are unlikely to suffer any casualties.

In general, random treasure tables are not a good idea. Instead, look up the tables for treasure value by EL (table 3-3) and provide the opponents with appropriate loot. Use table 3-5 (random treasure) as a guideline. Remember that any opponents with magic items should be ready and willing to use these items for their own benefit.

A good principle is "if you're not sure, be stingy". It's always easier to start too strict and then loosen up than to start too loose and then need to reign things back in.

Most important advice: read DMG chapters 1 & 2 (especially 2) thoroughly, back to front if necessary. You don't need to be able to quote them, but having a good idea about everything discussed therein is invaluable for running an effective D&D game. You don't even need to stick exactly to the rules as presented there, but it's always wiser to read what the designers recommended before improvising.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoodmanForge 09-07-04, 09:34 PM	Hey there, Well, I was approached by a few friends and persuaded to run an online, IRC based campaign. Not that I am not interested, but I've been intimidated by the complexity of the rules, especially since I haven't had much actual PnP experience as a player. But circumstances led to this, so.... C'est la vie. My question is about the average party level, for determining EL and treasure rewards... I'm running a Warcraft RPG campaign, with a party of 4 PCs. One Human, One Night Elf, and Two High Elves. The Night Elf and the High Elves all have a Level Adjustment of +1. So, I believe the Human should start as a level 2 class right? Also, since the group is effectively level 2, (Human Level 2 Barbarian, Night Elf level 1/healer level 1, High Elf level 1/runemaster level 1, High Elf level 1/Sorcerer level 1), does that mean the effective EL for a roughly equal level encounter should be 2 as well? And as far as distributing treasure, should I use the 1st or 2nd level random treasure distribution?
Fixxxer 09-07-04, 09:40 PM	Actually, I think you need to look at the ECL (Effective Character Level) of the race, not the LA. The ECL is the LA plus the number of racial hit dice that the race gets. Thus, a creature with an LA of +2 and 3d8+8 hit dice is an ECL 5 race...meaning that with no class levels, a member of this race is equal to a member of a "normal" race with 5 class levels. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, anyhow.
GoodmanForge 09-07-04, 09:52 PM	Racial hit dice? As far as I can tell, the hit dice for these characters is determined exactly as per the standard rules, based on class and level. These PC races are similar to the Tiefling and other races described in the Forgotten Realms setting. They are not monsters or anything, just slightly more powerful PC races that receive a level adjustment to offset the bonuses they get.
Kobold Horde 09-07-04, 10:13 PM	I'm running a Warcraft RPG campaign Ummm...... than why the DnD boards? :confused:
GoodmanForge 09-08-04, 11:20 AM	Because, though the Warcraft RPG is not published by WotC, it is a d20 product that uses DnD 3.5 rules. Also, if you look on the cover of the Warcraft RPG manual, it has that spiffy little design that quite clearly says, "Dungeons and Dragons." Now, pardon me if I've completely misread any of that information, but I thought asking a DM pertinent question in a DM related discussion forum was the proper thing to do. I apologize if I come across as snide, but rather then lance me for where I chose to post my question I'd really appreciate it if someone could actually try to help.
Melichor 09-08-04, 11:28 AM	Ummm...... than why the DnD boards? :confused: It's best to just ignore these little comments from people...... You've got it figured right. Starting the Human at 2nd level keeps the party even and was a good idea. I've had a couple of players ask about Warcraft, but I can't afford to invest in the books right now myself.
Phrennzy 09-08-04, 12:19 PM	Not all races have racial hit dice. Fixxxer was just giving an example. For instance, a hobgoblin does not have extra racial hit dice, but a bugbear does. The LA for the PCs you describe sounds like it comes from special abilities, not HD, so you sound like you are on the right track. Not that I am not interested That concerns me. DMing is a lot of work - make sure you are up for the commitment, otherwise you aren't going to have fun.
Sildatorak 09-08-04, 01:57 PM	Not that I am not interested Double negative, Phrennzy, he is interested, he's just concerned about his grasp of the rules. Okay, here is a rough breakdown of what LA does Your elves have character level 1, ECL 2. Basically any game mechanic that is going to be employed by a PC or NPC, is part of a spell or feat, etc. will treat them as level 1 unless it specifically says that it is based on ECL (I don't even know if any of these exist). For appropriate levels of wealth, figuring XP from encounters, deciding what challenge rating of creature to throw against them, or pretty much anything where you are acting as DM rather than through an NPC, they are going to be effectively 2. Be cautious with encounters, at least at first. It has been my experience that most LA races are not as powerful as a human who is the same ECL, especially at low levels (low HP is brutal).
GoodmanForge 09-08-04, 02:46 PM	Ah, excellent. I appreciate all the help provided, but Sildatorak's post was particularly helpful. I'll try to take the advice to heart. I'm in the process of fleshing out the rough outline I already created and I hit a roadblock generating encounters and treasure, for precisely the reason I asked my question. But since that has been answered... I'm still somewhat concerned regarding the pacing of encounters... I don't want them to be too easy, nor too challenging. I imagine I'll have to get a feel for much of this stuff just through experience. At the risk of oversimplifying, what I intend to do is provide a number of possible plot hooks they can seize on. The creatures, locations, and rewards will all differ of course, but the difficulty should remain, essentially, the same. I may toss a couple CR 1/2 creatures at them at the same time to see how they handle an encounter that is effectively EL 1. They should have little trouble with that group, and I'll try to gradually increase the difficulty, perhaps with a couple of EL 2 groups. If all still seems about right I'd like to cap off the first session with an EL 3... One CR 2 creature and two CR 1/2 creatures. All of this sounds good, (to my admittedly novice ears), in theory. :\
Phrennzy 09-08-04, 04:35 PM	Double negative, Phrennzy, he is interested Your double negative is proof positive that I was not fully awake when I read the post. :zzz:
Seraph of Babel 09-09-04, 06:26 AM	Basically, you got it right, but you could still start at level 1 if you want by building a racial advancement. (See web article on Savage Progression.) I think EL5 can still be handled by a party of 4 level 2 PCs. EL3 may be a bit too easy for a BBEG showdown. As a side note, I'm wary of IRC campaign (I once did an IRC side quest for one of my PCs.). It can be very slow, esp. when the players drift off to visit other websites, etc. When they are physically present, it's easier to focus their attention. But give it a shot, it may work for you though.
Nom 09-09-04, 07:05 AM	The guideline is that 4 level 2 characters (created using standard character creation) should be able to face about 4 EL 2 encounters before exhausting their resources (spells, hp, potions, ...). An encounter where EL matches party level is not a fair fight (both sides have equal chance of winning). Instead, it is a fight that the PCs should win, but will have to work a bit to do so. If fully equipped, they are unlikely to suffer any casualties. In general, random treasure tables are not a good idea. Instead, look up the tables for treasure value by EL (table 3-3) and provide the opponents with appropriate loot. Use table 3-5 (random treasure) as a guideline. Remember that any opponents with magic items should be ready and willing to use these items for their own benefit. A good principle is "if you're not sure, be stingy". It's always easier to start too strict and then loosen up than to start too loose and then need to reign things back in. Most important advice: read DMG chapters 1 & 2 (especially 2) thoroughly, back to front if necessary. You don't need to be able to quote them, but having a good idea about everything discussed therein is invaluable for running an effective D&D game. You don't even need to stick exactly to the rules as presented there, but it's always wiser to read what the designers recommended before improvising.