Average Rate of PK Rising... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Average Rate of PK Rising... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ImmortalBlueMage
03-29-04, 05:01 AM I recently resolved that I was too nice of a DM. I tend to fudge rolls and gives Player's lots of breaks. While there's nothing wrong with being accomodating, I decided that I wanted the new campaign to seem more dangerous, more hard-edged, so I started playing it straight, brutal, and merciless.

Long story short, I killed two PCs.

That doesn't sound like a huge deal, and it's not. But the issue is, when starting a new campaign, I'm looking it over, and I realize that I can probably expect to lose two more PCs on this one too. Call it gut instinct. There are a couple of key issues here:

-The PCs have low ACs for their level (party level 7, average AC only 15). No one wants to have heavy armor for fear of the check penalties. I could give them some magic armor, but I loaded them up with lots of cool gear already, too much more might stray into Monty Haul territory.

-The PCs have no divine spellcaster. Our Druid left the group when he moved to another city (additionally, the character died during his last session...which was not planned...). They come out of every combat gravely wounded with no way to heal except bedrest.

-The players like a lot of action and a lot of combat. I like a lot of action and a lot of combat. This is a good arragement nad makes for fun games, but it's starting to take it's toll. I need to tone the fights down in intensity, but how to do it without having it seem flat compared to the epic battles of the last two campaigns?

Long story short, if two of my players have to roll up new characters at the conclusion of every campaign, it's gonna get old fast. Does anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions? I'm open to anything.
Winsome
03-29-04, 08:34 AM If your players won't wear serious armour cos they're scared of the check penalties then it's their fault they die.

I've got a Ranger in my game who won't wear anything over light for exactly that reason. He's OK though when he's using his bow and thinking about the fight. When he gets overentheusiastic though and whips out the battleaxe he gets mauled.

No sympathy, no breaks. Maybe give them a couple of hints, suggest they think about cover and ranged weapons, but if they charge into combat with only a chainmail bikini then but them down without mercy. The message will get through eventually.
Arachest
03-29-04, 08:50 AM The only help I can think of with the ac is to point out how many times say a fighter uses the skills that are affected by the penalty and how many times the gain in ac would of helped. Cause at that level I bet most everything is hiting them, the only reason to use light armor is that you got a good dex or you los something if you wear something heavier.

As for the healing, have you looked in the complete warrior it has some good ideas. The other option is to make sure they find lots of curing potions.
Autosponge
03-29-04, 09:51 AM Just keep the CR of the encounters low until they catch on. They will get combat but they will just be fighting CR lower than themselves and XP will be slow.
Sarta
03-29-04, 10:27 PM Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage
Long story short, if two of my players have to roll up new characters at the conclusion of every campaign, it's gonna get old fast. Does anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions? I'm open to anything.

Perhaps the first characters rolled up will be a divine spellcaster and an ole' fashioned fighter in heavy armor. ;)

Depending on their levels, the feat leadership can possibly be all that is needed. If one or more of the characters in question decides to get a cleric for a cohort, that may solve many problems.

The other alternative is to allow the players' wishes to be fulfilled and drop tons of healing potions and magical light armor into their laps.

Personally, I prefer Autospongue's suggestion above.

Sarta
halzmar of geoff
03-29-04, 10:29 PM Check the unearthed arcana - has a section on page 109 to 110 on class defense bonuses.
Manic Man
03-29-04, 10:36 PM Use 68 point buy. Have temples hawking potions of healing. Should solve your problems.
Temmogen
03-29-04, 10:58 PM Being accused myself of being a "Killer DM", dont sweat the small stuff. It's thier own fault if they dont wear heavy armor. I just had a 6th level fighter with an AC of 22 charge a hill giant. One hit was all it took. It was a full attack on behalf og the giant, but the player in question was also a fellow DM and knew the risks. He had no qualms about rushing the giant, because he's the same way. They have the alternative to run, and they dont, add on top of that the fear of heavy armor, and you're bound to get a few as collateral damage.
Tell your guys straight, wear better armor or die alot.

:fight!: or :b:
Eck
03-30-04, 08:20 AM You mentioned that the party doesn't have a healer. If you don't want to tone down your encounters, then they'll need some form of healing. Either potions, items, or an npc adventurer.

Be careful not to make him a DM-PC. This is a trap that alot of DM's fall into. For some reason the DM-PC is the coolest of all the PC's with the coolest personalized loot, and the coolest attack rolls, etc.

Also don't let your players abuse him. (sending him down a potentially trapped hall) Not giving him any shares of treasure, etc. He's an NPC like any other and will stick up for his rights.

Later,
Eck
Salla
03-30-04, 08:43 AM Well, if the only reason the people aren't wearing heavy armor is the armor check penalty, something weird is going on ... now, if you have no Fighters, Paladins, or Clerics, then it's understandable since they're the only classes (that I remember off-hand) with Heavy Armor Proficiency.

A cleric cohort/follower/henchman/whatever you call 'em is probably a good idea. As suggested above, make sure he's subordinate to a party member (his boss), but not completely subservient. Give him a personality.

I don't know what to tell you about the armor ... maybe have a 'mirror-match'. Have them run into an NPC party (perhaps a low HD monstrous type like orcs or goblins) with the exact same class mix as the PCs but a level or two lower (depending on what encounter level you want), but armored more typically.
igronimus
03-30-04, 10:24 AM Chances are, part of your kill rate is due to your players being used to your old dming style, fudging rolls and cutting the players breaks. Once they get accustomed to the fact that you have no qualms about killing them, they will probably become a lot more cautious and survive more often.

You also need to take a close look and make sure you're not in the habit of making the encounters overly challenging for a non-fudging campaign.

Rolling up new characters is definitately a pain, especially if once an attachment has developed with the previous one. However, the increased intensity and fun of a more dangerous campaign greatly outweighs this in my oppinion. Not to mention, 2 player kills at level 7 really isn't that bad.
KAR 120 C
03-30-04, 10:33 AM I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what you should do is tone down the combats.

If your PCs don't want to wear heavy armour, this is a *good* thing, it implies that they're thinking in broader terms than just a string of fights. Wearing full plate all the time is just *stupid* unless you're a one dimensional combat goob, otherwise it just isn't practical to trek all over the place in armour.

You can still run plenty of action without hitting the PCs with monsters that are too tough for them. Indeed I'd argue that fights against weaker opponents are more dramatic, not less - if they're too tough you just get fights dragging on and on and getting kinda dull.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImmortalBlueMage 03-29-04, 05:01 AM	I recently resolved that I was too nice of a DM. I tend to fudge rolls and gives Player's lots of breaks. While there's nothing wrong with being accomodating, I decided that I wanted the new campaign to seem more dangerous, more hard-edged, so I started playing it straight, brutal, and merciless. Long story short, I killed two PCs. That doesn't sound like a huge deal, and it's not. But the issue is, when starting a new campaign, I'm looking it over, and I realize that I can probably expect to lose two more PCs on this one too. Call it gut instinct. There are a couple of key issues here: -The PCs have low ACs for their level (party level 7, average AC only 15). No one wants to have heavy armor for fear of the check penalties. I could give them some magic armor, but I loaded them up with lots of cool gear already, too much more might stray into Monty Haul territory. -The PCs have no divine spellcaster. Our Druid left the group when he moved to another city (additionally, the character died during his last session...which was not planned...). They come out of every combat gravely wounded with no way to heal except bedrest. -The players like a lot of action and a lot of combat. I like a lot of action and a lot of combat. This is a good arragement nad makes for fun games, but it's starting to take it's toll. I need to tone the fights down in intensity, but how to do it without having it seem flat compared to the epic battles of the last two campaigns? Long story short, if two of my players have to roll up new characters at the conclusion of every campaign, it's gonna get old fast. Does anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions? I'm open to anything.
Winsome 03-29-04, 08:34 AM	If your players won't wear serious armour cos they're scared of the check penalties then it's their fault they die. I've got a Ranger in my game who won't wear anything over light for exactly that reason. He's OK though when he's using his bow and thinking about the fight. When he gets overentheusiastic though and whips out the battleaxe he gets mauled. No sympathy, no breaks. Maybe give them a couple of hints, suggest they think about cover and ranged weapons, but if they charge into combat with only a chainmail bikini then but them down without mercy. The message will get through eventually.
Arachest 03-29-04, 08:50 AM	The only help I can think of with the ac is to point out how many times say a fighter uses the skills that are affected by the penalty and how many times the gain in ac would of helped. Cause at that level I bet most everything is hiting them, the only reason to use light armor is that you got a good dex or you los something if you wear something heavier. As for the healing, have you looked in the complete warrior it has some good ideas. The other option is to make sure they find lots of curing potions.
Autosponge 03-29-04, 09:51 AM	Just keep the CR of the encounters low until they catch on. They will get combat but they will just be fighting CR lower than themselves and XP will be slow.
Sarta 03-29-04, 10:27 PM	Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage Long story short, if two of my players have to roll up new characters at the conclusion of every campaign, it's gonna get old fast. Does anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions? I'm open to anything. Perhaps the first characters rolled up will be a divine spellcaster and an ole' fashioned fighter in heavy armor. ;) Depending on their levels, the feat leadership can possibly be all that is needed. If one or more of the characters in question decides to get a cleric for a cohort, that may solve many problems. The other alternative is to allow the players' wishes to be fulfilled and drop tons of healing potions and magical light armor into their laps. Personally, I prefer Autospongue's suggestion above. Sarta
halzmar of geoff 03-29-04, 10:29 PM	Check the unearthed arcana - has a section on page 109 to 110 on class defense bonuses.
Manic Man 03-29-04, 10:36 PM	Use 68 point buy. Have temples hawking potions of healing. Should solve your problems.
Temmogen 03-29-04, 10:58 PM	Being accused myself of being a "Killer DM", dont sweat the small stuff. It's thier own fault if they dont wear heavy armor. I just had a 6th level fighter with an AC of 22 charge a hill giant. One hit was all it took. It was a full attack on behalf og the giant, but the player in question was also a fellow DM and knew the risks. He had no qualms about rushing the giant, because he's the same way. They have the alternative to run, and they dont, add on top of that the fear of heavy armor, and you're bound to get a few as collateral damage. Tell your guys straight, wear better armor or die alot. :fight!: or :b:
Eck 03-30-04, 08:20 AM	You mentioned that the party doesn't have a healer. If you don't want to tone down your encounters, then they'll need some form of healing. Either potions, items, or an npc adventurer. Be careful not to make him a DM-PC. This is a trap that alot of DM's fall into. For some reason the DM-PC is the coolest of all the PC's with the coolest personalized loot, and the coolest attack rolls, etc. Also don't let your players abuse him. (sending him down a potentially trapped hall) Not giving him any shares of treasure, etc. He's an NPC like any other and will stick up for his rights. Later, Eck
Salla 03-30-04, 08:43 AM	Well, if the only reason the people aren't wearing heavy armor is the armor check penalty, something weird is going on ... now, if you have no Fighters, Paladins, or Clerics, then it's understandable since they're the only classes (that I remember off-hand) with Heavy Armor Proficiency. A cleric cohort/follower/henchman/whatever you call 'em is probably a good idea. As suggested above, make sure he's subordinate to a party member (his boss), but not completely subservient. Give him a personality. I don't know what to tell you about the armor ... maybe have a 'mirror-match'. Have them run into an NPC party (perhaps a low HD monstrous type like orcs or goblins) with the exact same class mix as the PCs but a level or two lower (depending on what encounter level you want), but armored more typically.
igronimus 03-30-04, 10:24 AM	Chances are, part of your kill rate is due to your players being used to your old dming style, fudging rolls and cutting the players breaks. Once they get accustomed to the fact that you have no qualms about killing them, they will probably become a lot more cautious and survive more often. You also need to take a close look and make sure you're not in the habit of making the encounters overly challenging for a non-fudging campaign. Rolling up new characters is definitately a pain, especially if once an attachment has developed with the previous one. However, the increased intensity and fun of a more dangerous campaign greatly outweighs this in my oppinion. Not to mention, 2 player kills at level 7 really isn't that bad.
KAR 120 C 03-30-04, 10:33 AM	I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what you should do is tone down the combats. If your PCs don't want to wear heavy armour, this is a good thing, it implies that they're thinking in broader terms than just a string of fights. Wearing full plate all the time is just stupid unless you're a one dimensional combat goob, otherwise it just isn't practical to trek all over the place in armour. You can still run plenty of action without hitting the PCs with monsters that are too tough for them. Indeed I'd argue that fights against weaker opponents are more dramatic, not less - if they're too tough you just get fights dragging on and on and getting kinda dull.