Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alyssatuininga 05-01-04, 11:48 PM	OK I will start off by saying that I am DMing my first game and as such I am making lots of silly mistakes. Well I just put myself in a big pile of poo and I don't know how to get out of it. I spent a TON of time creating this journal that my party found on a zombie. I spent time creating languages and then translating the entries into different languages. (The zombie was a language expert in life and used the journal as a way to document a treasure map he was researching). Anyway I thought I had well placed the clues so that they could comprehend enough to get some ideas to get them started (threw in a few languages their characters would know) but then put in some VERY obscure languages that their characters would have to work hard to find out what they were and then get someone to translate for them. I wanted to use it to give them good reason to get them to travel across the land and interact with other races etc. Well tonight one of the players says oh when we get to town we will have to buy a comprehend languages scroll. I am thinking WHAT!!!!! So after the session (before they get to town) I read the spell and realize that I am screwed. All this work and now they just get to decipher it all with a simple scroll. I don't want them to but I don't know how to logically make it so they can't ----any ideas???? How I see it my options are 1. Make the spell not exist 2. Make the text magical (which for the person that had it makes NO sense) 3. Make the spell unavailable (doesn't make sense to me) I don't like any of them. Please help!!! Alyssa
Wayne 05-02-04, 12:19 AM	Interesting. Well, you could simply put clues in the writing to send the PCs to different places anyway-- most players are notorious for getting themselves into "quests," and the more important it seems the more seriously they're wont to take it. That's probably the easiest way out. Besides that.... 1) Have certain portions be protected by an Illusory Script spell, which the zombie had probably had a friend cast (it's only a 3rd-level spell). This would still allow the writer access to it, but keep anyone else from doing so. a) This has the added advantage of requiring True Sight-- a higher-level spell-- to actually read the message, since Dispel Magic will ruin the text. Make sure the PCs know this (low-DC Knowledge Arcane check) to discourage them from trying. 2) Invent a sort of alchemical ink, much like Disappearing Ink, that causes the text to vanish whenever any magic is cast on it, only to reappear when magical affects on it fade. Again, after this happens offer a Knowledge check so that those more learned will "know" not to tamper with it. b) This does go outside the books as far as I know, but has the advantage of being nonmagical and completely logical (the ink would work defensively, too; keeping text from being destroyed by Erase, for example). The fact that it keeps the PCs' easy way out from working... is a side effect. ;) Those are my ideas. You could simply say "the journal is enchanted" and leave it at that-- and if you made the zombie a Wizard (or Rogue with Use Magic Device; you mentioned it was for a treasure map) that's not too far-fetched.
DDRGasm 05-02-04, 01:36 AM	Don't feel bad, I feel your pain. When I was a new DM (as every DM was at first), I've made mistakes in planning adventures and adventure hooks that were defeated by a simple spell or a simple solution the players figured out. Remember, when designing an adventure, you're only 1 brain, while your players are 3-5 brains. Unless you're significantly smarter than your players, they're going to think of a lot of things you haven't. You'll make fewer and fewer mistakes like this as you gain experience in DMing, but they'll never go away completely. For your particular case, remember that this is a cooperative storytelling game. When my PC's come up with a clever way of overcoming a challenge, go with it! Pretend that's how you had always planned for it to work. You just gotta think on you're feet. You're lucky you have time to think it over between sessions this time. ;) First, consider what the goal of this journal: to get PC's to travel to places heretofore unknown and meet new races. You originally intended for the reason to be to translate the pages - which can now be translated easily. You just have to invent a new reason. Perhaps the text itself is incomplete. The Zombie journalist was writing about this treasure map that he had seen, maybe the map was taken from him before he could finish studying it, and the last he saw of it, it was stolen by a group of thieves from *insert far away place you want the PCs to go to anyway*. Maybe the writing is ruined or smudged past a certain point, leaving out key details, but providing enough clues for the PC's to give them some leads to fill in those holes. Maybe the treasure is fully translated, and actually leads to the locations you wanted them to go, where they will find information (instead of treasure) to the next adventure. However you do it, it may require you to re-write was you gave the players. That won't be nearly as time consuming as before, since you already have your conversion tables or whatever lined up. Whenever they do cast "Comprehend Languages," however, don't just give them the translation. You worked hard to encode the message, so make them work hard to decode it. Give the player of whoever casts the spell the translation guide, and say: "You know this. The other players can't see it, but you can talk about it, explain it, or write out your own copy by hand." Then, let the group translate it themselves. :) Anyway, the lesson of the day is: adventures will never go exactly as you planned them, so be ready to think on your feet to steer the group in the same direction you want them to go. However, never force them. Saying "the spell doesn't work" will really frustrate them. It's better to ruin the adventure than to make your players feel cheated. Forcing them down a path that they have no control over is called "railroading," and many players don't like it. Go with the flow, and do what will seem fun for everyone. :) Good luck!
olshanski_home 05-02-04, 03:16 AM	This is going to be hard to take, but I say suck it up. A dm who makes arbitrary ruling to cover his mistakes just makes matters worse. The more experience you get the less likely you are to make those kind of mistakes. If you don't let them translate the language using a spell (comprehend languages), you should have a very plausable reason why it isn't working. My suggestion is that you just find a different plot hook... perhaps the journal is incomplete and anothe part of the journal is in a far away land.... Now that I read closer, DDRGASM has it correct. Don't say "that spell doesn't work" unless you want to find yourself posted on the "DMs that suck" board. I think that nobody, especially new DMs, should be altering the rules on the fly. If you alerted all players that in your particular campaign world that the spell "Comprehend Languages" was unavailable before the campaign started, that would be acceptable... but not once things are underway.
Remnant 05-02-04, 12:42 PM	You want them to use translators, but they want to go to town to buy a scroll? I say, kill two birds with one stone. The PCs get to town to find that a caravan of scholars have arrived. They have stopped by the town on the way to some ancient ruins (perhaps on a mission from some deity of knowledge), and are using a large stone tablet written in ancient languages as a map to get there. As a result of this, the well funded scholars have increased the demand for language-based spell scrolls to such a degree that the PCs will not be able to afford, or maybe even find, one. (Perhaps this was done on purpose to prevent people from competing with them). As a result, the PCs now have easy acess to people that can help them, but less acess to the scroll they want. These linguists can't help the PC with their needs, but they can point them in the direction of someone who can... Of course, the PCs may want to go find these ancient ruins- if you want, you can run with it, or make it clearly out of their leauge, or let them go and have the trip be completely uneventful, or have the scholars be hostile towards outsiders tagging along.
gleep 05-02-04, 03:40 PM	Originally posted by alyssatuininga I wanted to use it to give them good reason to get them to travel across the land and interact with other races etc. My thought on this is quite simple: Instead of the journal encouraging the characters to travel around to find people to translate sections the journal encourages the characters to travel around to find the places the zombie went to figure out what he meant. It's a journal, he doesn't need to write down everything. Just notes and observations, with a few things he may want to remember later or insights into problems that have occurred to him. And don't forget the limitations of the spell. It can't translate codes, hidden messages, etc. If the author was fond of something as simple as puns the results given by the spell could be quite misleading. Especially if he were to use several languages at the same time. (: In short, the characters now have an easier time translating everything to common, but that doesn't mean it'll be all that useful. There are a lot of nuances in language that a strict translation will not help with. Heck, just run a few passages through bablefish to see the same result. Oh, and a rule of thumb is that for every hour you put into something your players will find two ways to make your time pointless. :D --gleep
keyunp 05-02-04, 06:34 PM	The scroll doesn't have to be avaliable in the first town that they come to. If its small and you don't think that there would be a higher level mage in town, then there wouldn't be any scrolls fro sale. Do you plan on haveing 'magic shops' common? If not then no scroll until they find a wizard that they can make a deal with. (insert quest here)
bitnine 05-02-04, 10:53 PM	My thought on this is quite simple: Instead of the journal encouraging the characters to travel around to find people to translate sections the journal encourages the characters to travel around to find the places the zombie went to figure out what he meant.Indeed; while comprehend languages might give a literal translation, this does not necessarily mean that it makes all understandable to the players. It might make reference to local lengends and people, use jargon that they don't understand, and use prose that presupposes period knowledge that they do not possess. Of course, if the writers of the scroll didn't want it translated, they lightly did write it in a magical script (making it a null target for comprehend languages). If this is not the case, you might want to consider the above instead of playing keep-away with the 2nd level spell.
krichaiushii 05-02-04, 11:15 PM	I'll third what gleep and bitnine said - the journal is encoded. Perhaps multiple codes are used. Perhaps seeking out a key - similar to the real world Rosetta Stone (http://www.ba.dlr.de/ne/pe/virtis/stone1.htm) - could be the first major part of the quest to solve the map. As the journal is translated - first to common, then to its true meaning(s) - have it only lead to different people or passages in books that the PCs have to find. Make one of the easier to decipher codes describe in fairly good detail what the treasure is. After all, if you want the players to go on this quest, you need to whet their appetite properly. Further codes can include the treasure's location, descriptions of and how to pass its assorted traps and guardians, and the final code is a warning to not uncover the treasure, due to the great evil it is keeping locked up. Regardless, codes can be deciphered through use of the skill Decipher Script. Make the DCs of growing difficulty, and allow bonuses for the PC actually being able to read the language. But keep things high enough so that the translating PC(s) can't hope to make the DC without much luck or a very high skill - which can only be attained through high level, and maybe Skill Focus: Decipher Script. Make 'em work for their treasure. And make that treasure good!
Kenohki 05-03-04, 12:11 PM	First, you need to come up with a magic item sale policy. Are scrolls of comprehend language available for sale? I think the D&D default is that items of a certain value are available in settlements of a certain size. But it is reasonable to say that big ticket items are made on commision. If they want a comprehend language scroll they must pay to have it made and wait a day. So in the adventure they come to the local wizard's tower. He greets them politely and they ask him to create such a scroll. He offers to cast the spell for them since it would be easier and cheaper. He then does so, but is interested by the contents himself. He switches the document with a fake that a subsequent comprehend languages will not work on. He then closes shop and disappears. He either competes against the PCs or he sells the information to a higher bidder.
zodiki 05-03-04, 08:44 PM	I have a love/hate relationship with that spell (if that's possible). It helps simplify matters when PCs find old tomes and when they encounter foreign peoples but it also simplifies the matters of finding old tomes and encountering foreign peoples. In one part of my homebrew, Comprehend Languages (as well as Tongues and all other magical translating devices) is limited by law and tradition to only Bards from one particular College. These bards are 100% trusted (by magical bonding and oath) as translators and negotiators -- consequently the College possesses a monopoly on the magic and the trade. Perhaps you also have such a limitation. If you don't want to change the culture like that, just make the Tome encoded or masked by magic or both. If it's encoded the PCs have to find the code key, or rely on Decipher Script for tidbits of knowledge.
Edymnion 05-03-04, 10:20 PM	Agreed. If this journal really was about how to decipher a treasure map to some great horde, he isn't going to write it in a way anybody and everybody could read it. Leonardo DiVinci wrote in a mirror script where everything was backwards to keep people from reading his private journals. Nostradomas wrote in cryptic quatrains to keep people from reading them willy nilly. If he wrote the journal for his own purposes, he is likely to "encrypt" the journal so that, while he could read it just fine, nobody else would be able to do so. Keep it from falling into the wrong hands, that sort of thing. So while they may be able to translate the exact words, they won't get the hidden meaning. One idea would be to steal an idea from Star Trek. They had a race, called the "Children of Tarmock" that spoke using metaphore and illustration. They used imagry as the basis for their language. "Shacka, when the walls fell" ment a failure, or an inability to do something. Referring to a mythological figure's defeat, when the walls of his stronghold fell, and he was beaten. "Tarmock and Jalad, and the Beast of Tanogra" referred to two warriors who became friends when stranded on an island, where there was a fierce beast. They eitehr had to fight together, or die. Lots of stuff like that, where they referred to an image of a mythological scene to convey the meaning behind it, like how we might say "Juliet, on her balcony" to convey the image of longing, or perhaps "Don Quixote, charging the windmill" to show folly or foolishness. Perhaps your scholar did something similar, writing the journal in a form that he understood perfectly, but would make little sense to anyone else, even if they understood the language it was in.
Naeron 05-04-04, 09:25 AM	I don't think you should do anything about the availaibility or use of Comprehend Languages to read the journal. Inherently there is little difference in the means at which they end up with the translations. What you should do is change the information in the journal. Personal journals, unlike published works, are invariably written based on the author having an inherent level of knowledge about the subject matter. If the journal points to the location of a treasure then a fair amount of the information would be in shorthand or acronyms or using personal referents to make it harder for other people to decipher. Writing the whole thing in code, and especially multiple codes, would be very unlikely as the author would want to be able to read it freely. However there may be pieces in code as it would be entirely possible that some entries would be text that the author copied as is from other documents and they could be in languages the author did not understand (so needed a copy for translation later) or originally written in code (which the author decoded at a later date but the decoded version was not written down). Journals are usually written in a form of shorthand, acronyms and personal referents are often used instead of writing things out in full so an entry might read "Using the map I copied from the library in L I travelled east from Axebridge until I arrived at the ruins, this definitely seems to be the place described in HF's account and ..." rather than "I arrived at the ruins of Castle Black where Haldan Logrith captured the paychest before his band went to Mt Hightooth" or "KL at Axebridge confirmed what SJ said about the caravan" without the journal containing any clues as to the identities of these 2 people or the significance of the caravan (because the author knew this information). Thus the party need to work out where L is, travel to the library there to look for clues and then go to Axebridge and locate KL and talk to them (or their descendants if the guy was a Zombie for a long time) before trying to work out which ruins they may need to visit. There may also be maps but they will often only have cryptic labels, if any, because the author would already know which area they are of, and which town is the one marked in the upper left hand corner. What I would do is keep the journal you obviously have prepared and use that as your reference source as giving the information as the author would have read it. Give the players a cut down version that replaces a fair portion of the explicit information with indirect references to people and places that they have to track down.
Lothy 05-04-04, 09:45 AM	Contrary to those who think that you shouldn't try to compensate for this, I can appreciate the laying of a nice storyline getting ruined by unplanned PC ideas. You wouldn't have to just say "the spell didn't work" because I agree that would just serve to frustrate players who are out to think you're foiling their ideas. Give the journal a different purpose. For instance, perhaps this journal writer wasn't the most "clear-speaking" individual around. Perhaps the words he wrote down, even though they're READABLE with a Comprehend Languages scroll, don't make a heck of a lot of logical sense based on what the players know currently. We've all taken notes at some point that were simply for our own benefit and weren't meant to be read/understood by others. Perhaps this guy was taking notes regarding this treasure but was being terse and cryptic on purpose, knowing that HE'D understand what the words meant, but not necessarily someone who's after the same treasure. I think it's a perfectly justified way of doing things, particularly if the journal writer was more of the "greedy" sort when he was living. ;) Hope it helps, Lothy EDIT: LOL.... it seems the couple posters above me were also on the same wavelength as I.... should have read more fully before posting myself...hehe
Bedevere 05-04-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by Wayne 2) Invent a sort of alchemical ink, much like Disappearing Ink, that causes the text to vanish whenever any magic is cast on it, only to reappear when magical affects on it fade. Again, after this happens offer a Knowledge check so that those more learned will "know" not to tamper with it. Nice idea, but one really big flaw. If you just copy the page, rune for rune, letter for letter, with normal ink, then you'd be able to cast the spell on the copy. There is no way you'd be able to convince me that someone cannot copy the page, unless the writing is in some incredibly complex alphabet. If so, then I recall a spell that permits copying of written info, though it may have been non core... Anyway. Best way of dealing with this? Depends. How big is the nearest town? A small town would mean you can actually get away with saying there is nobody who knows the spell. Maybe the local wizard has never scribed it, maybe the local spellcaster is actually a sorcerer. Maybe, the wizard knows the spell, but in his old age, his eyesight has failed him, so he cannot read the page to cast the spell. A larger town presents more problems. Perhaps it is hosting a meeting of the local/regional wizards guilds, and as a result, all wizards are unavailable. The libraries and academics are still available of course... Has the book actually been moved yet? If not, then have it chained to the podium it was on. Common medieval practise for important texts. Oh, note that comprehend languages lasts for 10 minutes per level, and it takes 1 page a minute. Hence, a level 1 caster can read 10 pages a minute. Assume that copying down any complex info will take up a lot of time, and cannot be reasonably done after the spell expires, so say that he can translate and rescribe 2 pages a level, maybe 3. Given you said it was a book, this will take a lot of castings, and therefore, a LOT of gold. A translator will save a load of money, once the party learn of the existance of such people in the face of comprehend language spells. One thought. Someone familiar with lots of languages will usually be an academic of some sort. Why not make them the wizard with the comprehend languages spell, who points out the excessive cost of translating it magically, compared to the relatively lengthy but cheap process of the old fashioned way?
Donnavin Snowolf 05-04-04, 11:25 AM	I've been toying with the idea (you probably wouldn't want to impliment it now) of making Comprehend Languages allow 1 language per casting, which the caster must have some working knowledge of. A Knowledge: Arcana, Religion, The Plains, Local, Ancient History, or definately Dechiper Script check could be be made to determine an adequatley working knowledge (Arcana for Draconic, Religion for Celestial, Infernal, etc, etc). Anyways, its just a thought.
Elendur 05-04-04, 11:51 AM	From the description of the spell : "The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning". So you can still give them enough info to get them going on the adventure without spilling all the beans. You can also tell them that this is a very unusual scroll, in that is is written in all sorts of languages. You should always reward good PC thinking, even if seems to disrupt your plans. If there was a wizard, bard, or cleric in the party it seems reasonable that they'd know about comprehend languages. If even if they didn't, "let's take this to the town wizard" is a reasonable enough idea. Ultimately you are still in control of the amount of information revealed by the scroll. Perhaps your uber scroll is now multiple scrolls, with the first one revealing the location to the next. Players will get hung up on the most ridicuously easy problems, then blow right by your elaborately designed traps. That's the nature of DMing, you just gotta roll with the punches.
zodiki 05-04-04, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion ... So while they may be able to translate the exact words, they won't get the hidden meaning. One idea would be to steal an idea from Star Trek. They had a race, called the "Children of Tarmock" that spoke using metaphore and illustration. They used imagry as the basis for their language... Good call. Perhaps CL is the magical version of the Google-Translator.:)
Elendur 05-05-04, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by zodiki Good call. Perhaps CL is the magical version of the Google-Translator.:) :D If they had to use that they'd end up going to the wrong dungeon and getting eaten by a dragon.
Arbitrary Aardvark 05-05-04, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by zodiki Good call. Perhaps CL is the magical version of the Google-Translator.:) I like that idea. If you actually know the language in question (or have the epic bard feat which gives you all languages) you understand the idioms, slang, can manage the accent etc.
Bomba 05-05-04, 12:21 PM	why must the town have a comprehend lang. spell? its an easy solution yes but who says they can find someone who is willing to sell them that spell. i dont like my players buying spells left and right so i give them a 20% chance that there is any given 1st or 2nd level spell available and a 10% chance of 3rd level. sometimes the mage they talk to knows the spell and will scribe it for them but then they have to wait for him to do it sometimes a few days cause he has other business and for alow level spell he'll do it when he gets around to it. i dont ever sell any spells over 3rd level occasionally i'll allow them to trade a spell for one of equal or lower level with a magic shop if they want something of higher level. in addition i rarely have magic shops that sell spells from other books other then the PHB. i sell them spells from other books but usually the shop will only have 1 or 2 spells from another book i look at it as those spells are more rare. my campaign is high magic but just because it is doesnt mean that you can find what you want when you want it. most of my players spells they researched themselves or captured form another mage.
Wayne 05-05-04, 07:03 PM	Nice idea, but one really big flaw. If you just copy the page, rune for rune, letter for letter, with normal ink, then you'd be able to cast the spell on the copy. There is no way you'd be able to convince me that someone cannot copy the page, unless the writing is in some incredibly complex alphabet. If so, then I recall a spell that permits copying of written info, though it may have been non core... I don't know about you, but even copying as exactly as possible I couldn't transcribe, say; Hebrew characters or Japanese kanji with the sort of near-perfect accuracy some of it requires. Depending on the race and language D&D alphabets may be more or less complex than those... but I still wouldn't put money on the typical adventurer being able to copy all that correctly. I know I couldn't, anyway. *chuckles* Copying the page magically would trigger the protection, and that wouldn't work either. And you're right, I haven't seen Copy in 3E that I can remember (might've just forgotten it), but it was a 2nd Edition spell at least. That's a good idea, though. I'd probably never think of just copying the page and using magic on that. A second to the motion of making Comprehend Languages the D&D equivalent of BabelFish. :D