Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blue_Dilemma 11-01-05, 11:21 PM	I posted this in the players section but figured it might apply here to: I am starting up a game soon and I'm working closely with one of my players that wants to make a Dwarf. He really wants to avoid the overdone stereotypical Dwarven Warrior who is grumpy, hates goblins, weilds an axe, can't swim, etc. etc... I'm all for this and I'm glad one of my players cares enough to try to be different only I don't really know what to tell him. He's not dead set on playing a fighter so that opens up the other classes but I'm really looking for more than that. Can some of you maybe help me out be offering suggestions on how to make an interesting Dwarven character without making a cookie cutter character? Thanks in advance. :help:
JC99 11-01-05, 11:32 PM	Perhaps a wizard or dextrous fighter for class? For roleplaying, maybe the character was actually raised by the leader of a tribe of orcs/goblins who couldn't bring himself to kill a baby, even a dwarf. As such he's very against racism and believes all races are equal.
UmbraLux 11-01-05, 11:57 PM	See if he's willing to give his character a quirk and a goal. Then even if he's the stereotypical dwarven warrior, the character's personality and goals are unique. Some sample quirks for a dwarf: detests beer, prefers wine; doesn't drink at all; goes clean shaven; is obsessively fastidious; reads voraciously; writes fiction and plans to publish; is a gourmet cook; etc. What the quirk is doesn't matter so long as it's roleplayable and memorable. A dwarf insisting he's an author not a fighter in spite of the well used axe on his back becomes memorable. Goals can be anything the character may want to accomplish. Whether it's earn the money to build his own temple (or publishing house) or drive the hated orcs out of his ancestral home, a goal gives the player a reason to adventure and the GM some potential adventure hooks.
Flakster 11-02-05, 12:10 AM	Yeah, and if all that doesn't work, Dwarf Rogue!!!!
Templetroll 11-02-05, 12:29 AM	I played a dwarf wizard. Awesome with the con bonus for COncentration along with hit points. He was cast out by his father for studying magic, so he took a new name, Xylarthan, from an ancient tome (Men & MAgic, the original D&D booklet; Xylarthan was the example wizard). He refused to acknowledge that he was even a dwarf, he would state he was a wizard and would back it up with magic. He's gotten over that now, he is working to achieve enough power and prestige as a wizard that even his father will have to admit he has done well. He would also like to clear and restore a lost dwarven holding, with him as the ruler. He thinks that is the kind of thing that might be needed to convince his father. :) A different Dwarf I played was named G'Narly G'Nome (pronounced gah-nar-lee gah-nom) and he was a cleric rogue (thief back in those days) He introduced himself as a Sage of Architecture and Student of Library Science. he never acknowledge knowing anything about any class players knew. He explained he learned to move quietly and climb well in the library, he has skill with locks and traps due to his sagely abilities and he was good at collecting overdue fines (pickpockets) and woe to those who dared to damage a book! (Backstab/Sneak Attack).
WCH 11-02-05, 12:59 AM	Typical but not archtypical dwarf: cleric. Surprisingly good combination: dungeoneering rogue. Very powerful and fairly unheard of: monk. No reason why NOT to: Wizard.
Guy Humual 11-02-05, 01:13 AM	Two words: Dwarven Bard.
Reinsuoknera 11-02-05, 01:17 AM	Have your player read some of Plato's Socrates dialogues. It is my impression that fantasy Dwarves are based at least somewhat around ancient Greece and Socrates. It could give him some real insight. I would also recommend that he look at the D&D 'Races of Stone.' It gives quite a bit of info on Dwarven society, not just the same tired stereotypes. I agree with some of the other posts that it is best to make a character than just a class and race combo. A Dwarf can be a really interesting Rogue due to stonecunning as well as their other traits. I think the most interesting (difficult) Dwarf to play would be a Dwarven Bard.
syntaxerror37 11-02-05, 01:20 AM	Well, if he doesn't want to be grumpy, he could always go with a bard. I don't know weather you use point-buy or roll up your stats, but if you pump up cha/drop a good score it could work. It will ballance out with the con-bost most likely anyway. Bard song isn't totaly dependint on cha, as long as he has suficent ranks in preform. Assuming you go with a 16 cha (18-2), He'll have acess to all the bard spell levels. He would be unconventional, but at the same time, would be welcomed in the dwarven comunity which is always willing to sing of past deeds and glory of the heros of yor. If he's not into that, there is always that Dwarven Ninja idea I've been kicking around.
BadCatMan 11-02-05, 01:40 AM	Go back to the dwarven society - as it is in your campaign - and think about what else could come out of that society. Decide what parts to use, and what parts to go against. Standard dwarven societies revolve around the family and the clan, and respect and honour. Also figuring prominently is battle, particularly defense, and the crafts, particularly weapons. Also look at the dark side of dwarven society: Salvatore's Drizzt books have painted Dwarves as being almost as brutal as the Drow in battle against goblins and the like (ie. the crushing wheel-thing in Legacy, and Battleragers). That honour-bound nature could also lead to feuds and twisted political meanderings. Also see what kind of class/role the player wants to play - the background of a caster is necessarily different from that of a warrior or a skill-monkey. The racial bonuses and penalties can be thought of in other ways. Rather than the -2 Cha translating to gruffness, perhaps the character is quiet, reserved, and generally holds his tongue. When he speaks, it is because he something very important to say. Not wanting to get too stat-oriented here, but take a look at interesting dwarven PrCs, racial substitutions, racial feats, and even subraces. Going for a kick-ass class or ability can give a good groundwork and inspiration for a character. Dwarf Sorcerer racial substitution levels add Con to determine spells per day - w00t! - now what kind of character would this be? Some ideas I've had: * Crossbow Sniper. Sneaky, perhaps never even seen by the party. Creeps around, and silently assassinates key leaders in approaching hordes of orcs, goblins, giants, drow. (Rogue, Ranger) * Spy: The name's Bondhammer. Suave, sophisticated, highly skilled and a good fighter. Comes equipped with handy gadgets/magic. He spys on and infiltrates other societies, and even other clans. (Rogue, Bard)
James Wildspell 11-02-05, 01:54 AM	Two words: Dwarven Bard. Great idea! Think singing rather than playing and you get a Basso to rival any Tenor. Or an Epic-Poet type. The Perform Feat has no antecedent attached; you can "perform" in so many ways....
WCH 11-02-05, 02:24 AM	Cha -2 penalty is very painful for Sorcs and Bards, so I wouldn't suggest it. Better to use something which accents the racial bonuses without being typical (like a dextrous fighter). But, hey, whatever turns you on.
Gydion 11-02-05, 02:45 AM	The -2 doesn't have to be a penalty. Good role playing can overcome many of the problems a -2 can give a charisma based class. I'd suggest a bard or wizard.
allenchan 11-02-05, 02:48 AM	Warmage is awesome, totally fits with a stereotypical dwarf if you get one of the ones without cha penalty. Dwarven paladins are cool (but also sort of a stereotype). I've had good success with dwarven rogues, too.More of the tinkerer type then the twf sneak attacker wanna-be-ninja type. The -2 doesn't have to be a penalty. Good role playing can overcome many of the problems a -2 can give a charisma based class. I'd suggest a bard or wizard. Good roleplaying can increase your save DCs, give you more spells per known, and allow you to cast higher level spells? Wow, when did I miss the memo? :rolleyes: Seriously, playing a race and class that has poor synergy does not make you a better roleplayer.
WCH 11-02-05, 03:02 AM	Good roleplaying can increase your save DCs, give you more spells per known, and allow you to cast higher level spells? Wow, when did I miss the memo? :rolleyes: Seriously, playing a race and class that has poor synergy does not make you a better roleplayer. Exactly. It may be fun to RP, but it won't be balanced with other character options, and thus should be discouraged, unless the entire party is taking inferior character builds, in which case it's okay.
yellowdingo 11-02-05, 03:18 AM	I once had a Dwarf who lived far from Mountains, was alergic to caves, and grew rare herbs in a small village with his own green house, prefered flat lands to the horizon and was pretty much devoted to writing music for the local Parish priest (a real member of the community). Until the party burned his village to the ground. Then he traveled with them, grumbled a lot (for cover) and poisoned them all with a nice selection of fine herb poisons which got all but one. He keeps that one in a cage in the root cellar.
Gedrin 11-02-05, 03:30 AM	Member of a secretive illuminist society based loosely around the faith of Dumathoin, Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain. Like ancient masons, they could actually have secrets to guard (like how to work certain extraordinary metals).
weasel fierce 11-02-05, 03:48 AM	Depends on how dwarves act in your campaign world. I'd focus on elements like pride and stubbornness, and build the characters personality normally, with those elements flavouring it.
eagleye 11-02-05, 03:55 AM	Dwarf rogue and bard are wonderful ideas. Another great one might be a dwarven ranger, specialised in either archery or dual-wielding (short sword and dagger for instance).
Thanqol 11-02-05, 04:03 AM	I'm running a Dwarven Druid who's seeking to emulate the creatures of the Deeps in order to gather a greater understanding of the Dark Beneith the World. Always wildshapes into something subterran and his animal companion's a Dire Spider. He's very creepy when giving a rant on how the surface relm is puny and insignificant in the face of the dark. But I DM, so this guy's planning to feed the group to his Cloaker buddies.
Eaglos 11-02-05, 04:53 AM	I played a dwarf Rog/Sorc based on high Dex and Cha. It worked pretty well despite the fact that my initial Charisma rating was 14 :D
yellowdingo 11-02-05, 05:39 AM	"Hurrargg!" "Ha! The Dwarf speaks." Janisk the elven laughed in mock surprise. "And what do you have to say friend Dwarf?" "Hurraag!" The dwarf halted. "Fine, be a surly old so and so...!" The companions continued walking. Janisk shook his head and walked off. Ungar grasped his chest, collapsed on the ground, and rolled into a ditch. "What did Ungar say?" "I dont know. Bearded fuddyduddy grumbling about getting up so early." Mofin looked back up the road. He couldnt see the Dwarf. "Looks like he's ditched us." "Ha! good riddance I say..." Janisk took the lead and headed off down the hill.
Illithid Tentacles 11-02-05, 05:45 AM	Great idea! Think singing rather than playing and you get a Basso to rival any Tenor. Or an Epic-Poet type. The Perform Feat has no antecedent attached; you can "perform" in so many ways.... Drums, trumpets, flutes, and bagpipes were all used on the battlefield as I can recall offhand. I can easily envision a dwarf carrying a couple of drums and banging away at them. The other characters in the party might not care for the sound of bagpipes, but I don't think they'd object overmuch to the bonuses he can grant to them regardless via Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness, although I suppose those could be considered stereotypical of a dwarf as well. Harmonica is an interesting choice. If your DM lets you use Song and Silence, you can expend one use of Bardic Music to get a +4 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information rolls towards commoners for 1d6 hours afterwards, provided they heard your performance, which will be helpful in offsetting your racial Charisma penalty.
clarkvalentine 11-02-05, 08:14 AM	You could go with a Dwarven ranger. Make him the best mountaineer this side of the Great River. There isn't a 20,000 ft. peak on the continent he hasn't climbed. Trees, buildings, cliff faces, castle walls - like a stroll in the park for him. Winter weather? Ice magic? Rain? Snow? Bah. Shrugs 'em off like a cool morning breeze. With some combat experience (maybe he used to be captain of a team of rangers tasked with keeping the trade roads' high passes clear of bandits) and a few ranks of Open Lock, he could be a perfect second story man.
yellowdingo 11-02-05, 09:40 AM	Drums, trumpets, flutes, and bagpipes were all used on the battlefield as I can recall offhand. I can easily envision a dwarf carrying a couple of drums and banging away at them. The other characters in the party might not care for the sound of bagpipes, but I don't think they'd object overmuch to the bonuses he can grant to them regardless via Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness, although I suppose those could be considered stereotypical of a dwarf as well. Harmonica is an interesting choice. If your DM lets you use Song and Silence, you can expend one use of Bardic Music to get a +4 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Gather Information rolls towards commoners for 1d6 hours afterwards, provided they heard your performance, which will be helpful in offsetting your racial Charisma penalty. More likely pull up with a huge tycho drum on a cart and play as lead in for a battle. Good time to whip out your Rising Sun CD and play track one.
Treetrip Danglefoot 11-02-05, 09:41 AM	He could just be friendly. Theres not alot of friendly in dwarven stereotype.
Gydion 11-02-05, 11:30 AM	Quote: Originally Posted by allenchan Good roleplaying can increase your save DCs, give you more spells per known, and allow you to cast higher level spells? Wow, when did I miss the memo? Seriously, playing a race and class that has poor synergy does not make you a better roleplayer. from WCH Exactly. It may be fun to RP, but it won't be balanced with other character options, and thus should be discouraged, unless the entire party is taking inferior character builds, in which case it's okay. The OP asked for different ideas for a Dwarven character, I provided an opinion. Synergy? Where did the OP ask about synergy? A Dwarven bard isn't allowed to use items? Why can't he pick up a cloak of charisma or any of the other myriad gewgaws that boost stats? Why couldn't the player just drop a point every four levels into charisma? Think outside the box, just because a "build" doesn't seem to work or provide synergy doesn't mean it can't be fun. For those of us who've been playing for 20+ years we get a little tired of Dwarven fighters and Elven wizards. It's nice to play something refreshing and unique.
Blue_Dilemma 11-02-05, 12:19 PM	Thanks for all the good advice. You guys gave me lots of great ideas I'd never thought of before. I'll be meeting with my friend later today and I'll have a lot of options to offer him. For anyone that's interested, I'll come back after and let you all know what he decided on. Feel free to keep going too. I'm going to playing in another's game and now I'm leaning toward an interesting Dwarf character. :w00t:
Bruunwald 11-02-05, 02:38 PM	I was looking at the OP and thinking what a hoot it would be to see a full-bore friendly, over-gregarious dwarf with mustache and no beard, going for a refreshing swim in a brisk river and totally psyched because he beat his previous time. What a great opportunity for roleplaying is playing against type. I say friendly, athletic without being musclebound, fastidious, spiritual without being really religious, maybe a warmage or a sorcerer or psion with a little martial multiclass, and most importantly ;) , tattooed with various meaningful runes and phrases. Likes throwing knives and shooting bows and other skillful challenges.
Bruunwald 11-02-05, 02:48 PM	Seriously, playing a race and class that has poor synergy does not make you a better roleplayer. It doesn't? If you mean that the simple act of making that choice does not automatically qualify you as a better roleplayer, you're right. If you mean that doing so won't help you to become one, you're dead wrong. Because making that choice puts you on the road to being a better roleplayer. Life works like this: adapt or die. Personally, I revel in playing less-than-stellar builds, not only because it challenges me to be a better roleplayer, but also because it forces me to be a better combatant, by exercising my brain. In any case, a better roleplayer may appreciate the challenge of playing such a "synergy poor" character.
Blue_Dilemma 11-02-05, 03:24 PM	So my friend did not come over today but I did talk to him on the phone and offered a bunch of the ideas you've posted here. He may still change his mind but by the end of the call he seemed most interested in playing a Dwarven Bard (no name yet). He sees him as a kind of "loremaster" traveling and collecting legends to add to his list of entertaining tales. His main purpose for going out into the world and doing the things he will be doing is to find and chronicle the adventures of "true heroes" (the other pc's) to preserve for eons to come in the form of Homeresk poems. He is not a strict pacifist, but he prefers to hang back and bolster his comrades by playing his mighty drum while singing his ancient magical songs. He's going to aim for a high charisma and wisdom at the cost of lower physical stats since he's not a combat oriented character. Though he should still be good enough to fill in if a comrade falls or what have you. That's all he has so far, but I like it. It's something a little different than I'm used to so it should be fun. It might even encourage the other players to do fantastic deeds in the hopes that they're be remembered forever. :king:
primemover003 11-02-05, 03:27 PM	A poor build or less than optimal one is only a bad choice if you play with twinks, munchkins and powergamers. A dwarven bard is a great character concept. Yes dwarves have charisma penalty, big whoop... Putting more skill ranks into Chr skills and taking spells that are helpful to the party rather than against enemies will bypass the lower save DC problem... and who needs Chr when Glibness gives you +30 to bluff!!! Bardic music... no problem it's based on ranks. Bardic Knowledge... based on Int and Level Spells... only need a 16 Chr. Items, level increases, & inherent bonuses will fix any other problems. He's going to aim for a high charisma and wisdom at the cost of lower physical stats since he's not a combat oriented character. You may want to nudge him towards Intelligence instead of Wisdom (as it effects languages and knowledge skills and bardic Knowledge... key traits of a Loremaster).
clarkvalentine 11-02-05, 03:33 PM	Seriously, playing a race and class that has poor synergy does not make you a better roleplayer. Do we not learn best through adversity? Simply playing a suboptimal build isn't the mark of a good roleplayer. Playing a suboptimal build well can be. :)
Juzzman 11-02-05, 04:23 PM	Can some of you maybe help me out be offering suggestions on how to make an interesting Dwarven character without making a cookie cutter character? Have you ever read any of the Terry Pratchett books? There is an interesting character that appears from time to time, called Cassanunder, the world's shortest lover :-) Basically he's moddeled on the infamous Cassanova, and indulges as a swordsman for hire, a little light highway robbery, and of course a real ladies man. He may be shorter, but he tries harder :-) Strontium
Wafflestomper13 11-02-05, 05:10 PM	Not all Dwarves have a Charisma penalty... So Non penalty Bards are possible, and just being a strange dwarf, like the ones that live near the beach in cliffs and get bonuses to swim, is automatically not a steriotype dwarf. plus there is nothing wrong with being the MOST steriotyped dwarf, then it's not normally steriotyped at all.
Voran 11-02-05, 06:37 PM	Dwarven beastmaster that uses a bow! You can be a Hunter from World of Warcraft :P
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 11-02-05, 08:50 PM	http://pratchett.info/characters/casanunda.jpg Casanunda would make an excelent steriotype-breaker. Gof for either a Bard or a Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior), high Bluff and Diplomacy and so-forth. Choose the rapier as your primary weapon and shave close.
Blue_Dilemma 11-02-05, 11:22 PM	Have you ever read any of the Terry Pratchett books? There is an interesting character that appears from time to time, called Cassanunder, the world's shortest lover :-) Basically he's moddeled on the infamous Cassanova, and indulges as a swordsman for hire, a little light highway robbery, and of course a real ladies man. He may be shorter, but he tries harder :-) Strontium I haven't, actually, but he sounds like a very interesting character. In fact the only book I've ever read that featured Dwarves prominently was... Stormbringer? I think it was called. I don't know if it was part of a series or stand alone. I think it was in the Dragonlance world. I remember really liking it.
yellowdingo 11-04-05, 05:07 AM	Korva stared the prospector in the eye. At least, what was left of his eye. The stench of death was strong in the prospector's burned out camp. Korva looked the gnome's remains over again. The prospector had been crucified on a large tree. The corpse was a week old at least. The few remains indicated that he had been tortured to death by a hot iron poker. The iron fire poker at his feet said everything. "You old fool. What did you get yourself into?" Korva shook his head and walked away. This whole case was starting to smell bad.
Zetakya 11-04-05, 08:54 AM	Two words: Dwarven Bard. Been there, done that. I played him with an emphasis on Oral Histories, Lore and other such Arcane things. He was surprisingly effective, both as a Bard (the difference is only 5% after all) and as a character. He loved entering battle chanting Inspires and swinging an Axe as well. If using point buy, you can get away with purchasing only 14 in CHA (adjusts to 12 after Racial mods), but you will have to put every STAT mod up to and including level 16 into CHA to get the spellcasting stat high enough to get 6th level spells. Inspire and most of your spells are not save-required either, so the 5% loss for being a Dwarf doesn't apply.