Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ajb47 05-08-05, 01:43 PM	4 Human Warriors 2nd level are an EL 5. (CR = NPC Class level - 1 = 1 each, 2 CR 1's is a 3 and 4 CR 1's is a 5). EL 5 gives 1600gp in treasure value. Where the heck does a 2nd level warrior get 400 gp in treasure? I guess I could give each of them one masterwork item of some sort, but it seems strange to me that 4 thugs would have 1600 gp in treasure. I mean, they're thugs and that's a bunch of money to a lot of people. AJ
Cyra 05-08-05, 01:46 PM	As a DM you can fix this little snag in your reality here are my prerequisites for changing rules: 1. you understand the rule to be changed 2. You don't like the rule as it is written You obviously understand the rule and don't like it. Voila! by my highly selective methods you can change the rules
Santrilla 05-08-05, 01:47 PM	Well, the Character Wealth by Level table says that at 2nd level a player should have accumulated 900gp, and most of that is from dungeon crawling. It's not unfeasible that an NPC would earn less than half that- from guard duty payment, and maybe the odd mercenary job.
Nightgaunt 05-08-05, 06:44 PM	Personally I give creatures wealth based on my assessment of those creatures to attain wealth. Really I just kinda ignore the tables. However if you do want to remain faithful to the tables and be cautious of power vacuum I would instead offer these suggestions. 1)Instead of worrying about 4 thugs having 400 each instead just give 1 of the thugs something highly valuable. Maybe he stole an expensive ring from someone, or is carrying a family heirloom. I think it would be easier to just give 1 of the 4 a high value item rather then trying to split the high value 4 ways evenly. 2)If you want to have fun with it (this is what I would do), I would just have the warriors carrying very little on them, their wealth is more likely stored at there base or home. Maybe they rent out a room in some flop-house and they hide their valuables somewhere. Otherwise try method 1. You could even make a mini-quest of infiltration where the four thugs are local toughs for a small thieves guild. Wait, that is going off topic, I connect the dots too quickly sometimes. ;)
Aeromus 05-08-05, 11:25 PM	What... don't these warriors have horses? Clothing? Weapons? Armor? Saddles? Spending money? Special items to make them more then cardboard cuttouts? 400gp in gear isn't much.
Didge 05-09-05, 01:41 AM	First off, the NPC's shouldn't have the wealth that a PC should. But keep in mind too that they won't have all their wealth with them. Both of which have been mentioned, but I thought I'd throw in some other things to consider. A general guideline that I set forth is that no one (PC, or NPC) spends more than half their wealth per level on any one single item. Also what's to say their wealth isn't in things that aren't liquid cash. And if you want to be really mean, you can have their wealth be either from a side bet from a bookie (who probably isn't that happy they won) or perhaps that money they have is for their bookie for a bet lost (again, one who won't be happy that, "his" money was taken).
High Octane 05-09-05, 02:16 AM	Dont create treasure as a group, each warrior should have level 1 treasure. Also, if they ae in a group like that, they could be a raiding gang. Maybe they picked up a bunch of cash from a bank delivery.
weasel fierce 05-09-05, 05:07 AM	If they are thugs, odds are they are thugs exactly because they dont have a lot of gold. Apart from pocket change, I'd not award much in hte way of gold for such an encounter.
FriendoftheDork 05-09-05, 05:40 AM	Someone is right, don't use EL when calculating treasure, use CR and multiply. Having 10 1st level warriors together doesen't increase the chance of finding a magic sword much, but a single 4th level fighter may have one. But it is a good idea to combine treasure together. if 4 2nd level warriors travel with a 5th level noble let the Noble have the money/wealth, and let the warriors guard it. And still it's not that far fetched to have that equipment, even if they don't own it themselves. Perhaps they are soldiers and their armor and weapons are that expensive. Give them chainmails, lances, swords, maces, daggers, light warhorses, riding horses and those 400gp quickly becomes basic soldier stuff. That equipent is far better than ordinary soldiers have, but if they're retainers of a knight it's not far fetced at all. When giving out equipment to NPCs, think of three factors: 1: What sort of equipment should these NCPs have, and why? 2: What sort of equipment will the PCs get if they loot them? 3: Is their wealth factored into their CR? 1. If these warriors are mere thugs they should not have that much at all. At best they get studded leather armor and longsword+shields, adn perhaps a pot of cure light if they are available. But that depends on their master(s). Some soldiers/thugs are better equipped than others. If their master is a bit more stingy, take most of their gold after equipping them with basic stuff and give it to their master for the main treasure chest. 2. Is it okay for you that the PCs get alot of gold when they sell the stuff? Keep in mind that they probably only get hald price, so those 1600gp turns to 800gp, which is not that much for a party of 4 adventurers to get at any level. 3. Warriors have lower CR than fighters because of lack of training (feats), potential (abilities) and equipment (wealth). If you change any of that (such as giving warriors NPC wealth as a fighter) you should award more xp for the encounter. "2nd level warriors with hvy warhorses, full plate, shields and masterwork weapons is alot tougher challenge than a bunch of thugs.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 05-09-05, 06:46 AM	This is the way I allways do it, but it does ocasionally P*** off my players. Calculate treasure seperatley for them all, then add one itme of your choice equal to (round about) 10% of their CRs treasure value. Also remember with NPCs their "Treasure" is in fact their equipment.
VirgilCaine 05-09-05, 09:09 AM	What... don't these warriors have horses? Clothing? Weapons? Armor? Saddles? Spending money? Special items to make them more then cardboard cuttouts? 400gp in gear isn't much. Thank you! If they have any metal armor, thats at least 50 gp right there. 100 gp if it's anything but scale mail. Crossbows are ungodly expensive, as are horses. 100gp--chain shirt 75gp--light horse 35gp--light crossbow That's 210gp right there. Add on a potion or two or something, and you've got 400gp easy. If they have heavier armor, thats even less real equipment. I mean, they're thugs and that's a bunch of money to a lot of people. But this isn't money they have, it's basic equipment. 400gp is barely enough for a horse, good armor, a melee and a ranged weapon. And unless the PCs are re-equipping themselves, they'll have to sell this stuff because it's all stuff they should already have, and better.
ajb47 05-09-05, 11:22 AM	What... don't these warriors have horses? Clothing? Weapons? Armor? Saddles? Spending money? Special items to make them more then cardboard cuttouts? 400gp in gear isn't much. They are cardboard cutouts. They are thugs hired by the BBEG as muscle for one night. That's it. They live in a crowded city, so don't really need horses all that much. They wear leather armor, have small wooden shields and carry longswords. As someone else pointed out, they probably have the majority of their "wealth" in their flophouse, and the PC's won't have much of a chance to get to it before the authorities do. I just don't see thugs as being well-to-do is all. AJ EDIT: Fixed bold tags.
ajb47 05-09-05, 11:31 AM	Dont create treasure as a group, each warrior should have level 1 treasure. I thought about this, but there isn't really much of a chance of getting the 1600gp for an EL 5 encounter doing it that way. However, I can just add the "missing" treasure to another foe's hoard later in the adventure. Says so right in the book.
Colmarr 05-10-05, 01:47 AM	That's right, the DMG espouses two methods of treasure distribution: 1) Roll for each encounter individually. 2) Determine the total treasure for the adventure and divvy it up any way you see fit. As long as the PCs end up with ther appropriate amount, you've got no worries. Now, officially treasure is determined on the basis of EL, not individual CR, but that can cause some "realism" problems in encounters with hoards of low-CR opponents. On a side note, are you sure that 4 CR 1 opponents is EL 5? I seem to recall that the EL for an encounter with CR 1 opponents is simply the number of such opponents (in this case EL 4).
ajb47 05-10-05, 09:34 AM	As long as the PCs end up with ther appropriate amount, you've got no worries. Now, officially treasure is determined on the basis of EL, not individual CR, but that can cause some "realism" problems in encounters with hoards of low-CR opponents. Yeah, it was the many low CR opponents that got me. Like I said, thugs do not inspire images of well-to-do-ness in me. On a side note, are you sure that 4 CR 1 opponents is EL 5? I seem to recall that the EL for an encounter with CR 1 opponents is simply the number of such opponents (in this case EL 4). I do not remember reading that. I only remember the "double the number of a certain CR gives an EL of 2 higher". AJ