Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sasha Windsor 10-08-04, 08:08 PM	In the campaign that I run, I give out XP for damn near everything. My group is made up of combat monkies and RPing enthusiasts. It seems that every other game is combat-free, where the story takes center stage. My low-level group is reaching the mid-levels, and the cleric wants to start brewing potions. After reading the description of the Brew Potion, he felt that he shouldn't expend experience to brew a potion, and should actually gain experience for making one. I like the feat as it is written. That led to an hour-long argument where neither one of us yielded. Some time has passed since then and now looking back at the argument, I have decided that I do not want to re-write the Brew Potion feat, but I wouldn't mind actually awarding XP for making items, considering the fact that I give XP for practically everything else that a character can do. I'm not sure how much XP to award. Perhaps enough to cancel out the XP cost of brewing potions? Maybe a bit less? Has anyone else tried this? Are there any potential pitfalls that I may be overlooking?
Lordofthebean 10-08-04, 08:14 PM	That led to an hour-long argument where neither one of us yielded When this sort of thing happens, turn to "DM's rule number 19b:" Thou shalt not change the rules unless there is a real reason they must be changed. In other words, stick with your gut feeling about the nature of the feat. If you gave XP for creating scrolls, why not for casting complex spells like wish? The idea is that by creating a scroll, a wizard (or other caster) is expending some personal energy which he will never truly recover, aka XP.
Sasha Windsor 10-08-04, 08:25 PM	Good advice. I should say that I did bring up this point, but it is very hard to defend "putting your personal energy into a potion". That works with scrolls, wands, and other powerful devices, but it just doesn't seem to work with potions. I am feeling a little bit of pressure from him and one of my other players on this, as they simply don't see the logic behind the rule. I could just Rule 0 it, but I don't want to come off in a "this is my game, play by my rules" kinda way. I would prefer to compromise without ruining the overall feel of the game. I think that this idea is extremely generous on my part - wouldn't you agree?
Art_Tillary 10-08-04, 08:51 PM	The "logic" in charging XP for creating scrolls, magic items, potions etc is game balance. In other words, there is no logical rules reason for it. The idea that a person will have bound up some part of themselves in item creation does not (as far as I can tell) show up as part of the actual mechanics of the rules. The flip side though is that magical items will be much more common. If there is no XP cost, then anybody with sufficient money can hire a NPC spell caster to create something. This can be tweaked by changing the demographics, but not relevent to this thread. In general, it is a significant boost to any spell caster that has the cash to spend on item creation. Expect a lot more creations. AT
myeviltwin 10-08-04, 09:02 PM	XP costs aren't necessarily investments of life force. In at least some cases, you can think of them as time/energy invested in a side project (crafting an item, for example). The character spent time doing something other than their normal pursuit of adventuring and training, so it follows that it might take them longer to level up. More importantly, the rules specify that creating items should cost XP, not earn it. There are two reasons for this: 1.) If this were not the case, item creation feats would simply enable characters to get their magic items for half price. 2.) XP awards are generally contingent upon risk to the character. That's why a boxing match isn't worth as much XP as a street fight. Unless potions are going to explode in the mixer's face every once in a while, brewing them isn't worth XP. (The exception to this is RP awards, or other DM incentives. But it doesn't sound like you need to offer extra rewards to get people to mix potions.)
MinusInnocence 10-08-04, 09:04 PM	I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it just doesn't feel right with potions." Scrolls and wands aren't exactly powerful items, but you seem to think it's appropriate for them to require XP. This is one of those "gaming theory" problems - you have to decide with your group what ambiguous or shady rules like this really mean. For instance, some groups like the Critical Hit rules from Combat and Tactics of 2E. What they don't understand is the emphasis placed in 3E/3.5 on the intangible "pool" of HP. Things like extra damage and called shots are already accounted for in the rules, and this can be discovered by careful analysis of what the rules represent from the Real World. Tell your players that you feel magic requires sacrifice. Some spells aren't necessarily earth-shattering: sure, they defy contemporary understanding of physics, and allow the impossible to become possible. But you're not really draining a part of your soul away to summon up a Fireball out of a ball of bat guano. Instead, intelligent casters know their limit: they only dredge up a certain amount of mystical energy every once in awhile so they don't tax their bodies. This is supported by the Vancian system of needing to carefully commit formulae to memory and subsequently get 8 hours of rest every night. It's a logical, scientific process, one that saps energy from the human vessel using it. Other spells and manifestations of magic are more... well, magical. Wish is a good example: you're actually twisting the laws of the Multiverse around to suit your desires, and the very thought of this isn't just mindboggling. It's a spiritual and metaphysical burden. That's why it takes XP. Magical items are even more definitive. Not only are you giving a little part of yourself to the creation of something substantial, you're binding it permanently to reality. You find a receptacle and breathe life, in a sense, into it to create the desired effect. The analogy that you will never quite get back what you put in is a good one - magic truly does require sacrifice. If the players in question can't think of a reasonable argument against all of this other than, "Well, everything else gives us XP," maybe you should just put your foot down and tell them that it IS your game, and that your word is law. You're not being unreasonable, and I think it's a sign of a good DM to require sensible justification for changes to rules already in place.
Sasha Windsor 10-08-04, 09:45 PM	Great responses guys. This is the kind of stuff I need to hear to form an argument. I should note that the players in question equate XP to life force. This is something I will have to work out of their system. I entered the debate with the idea that the XP cost to build items is there for game balance. If it wasn't there, then they could just get every item for half price with no real consequences. That idea sits very badly with me. My campaign world is a mid-magic one - I don't want the party cleric cranking out cure after cure potion and making a ton of gold off of it. Come to think of it, I even accussed him of trying to get over on the rules just to advance his character. That's when the argument really got out of hand... but that is off-topic. Thanks guys. I will stand my ground when it comes up again. XP has to be paid to build these items to keep the balance of my game intact. Edit: What I meant about the "doesn't feel right" thing is if you subscribe to the idea that XP equates to life force or your soul or whatever. Pouring your essence into a weapon, staff... that makes sense. Into a scroll or potion? Just doesn't hold water. I will work that idea out of their heads and it should make it all make a little more sense to them.
CrippleMrOnion 10-08-04, 10:00 PM	This entire argument is ridiculous. You're the DM, you're following the rules. You should not award XP for something that REQUIRES XP to do... there's a reason the rules are written that way, so that there doesn't become an imbalance. That's the key: imbalance. If you reward someone for making items that make their characaters more powerful, it creates something of a destructive cycle. The XP cost isn't meant to be punishment, it's meant to balance the fact that the character is more powerful due to the item that was made. A potion may not seem like it adds that much power, but it doesn't cost that much XP, either. Do not give in. This isn't an issue of house ruling, it's an issue of trusting people who have designed the entire game. They made mistakes, sure, but this isn't one of them.
Sasha Windsor 10-08-04, 10:09 PM	Prior to starting this thread, I decided to create a new feat that would allow magical potions to be created without the expenditure of XP. It was two against one - a 1st edition holdover who doesn't believe that XP should be spent on magic items and a newcomer to the game who wants to get over on the rules since games like EQ and various MUDDs never required XP to be used (I know, a weak argument). After this thread, I'll be taking my initial stance - spend XP for items. That's it. No compromises.
Dash Branaghan 10-09-04, 01:25 AM	Okay, I need to chime in my two bits here, namely because it runs contrary to the conventions being expressed here. First of all, I share the sentiments of your player. I have never liked the fact that creating magic items costs XP, nor do I care for the justification behind it. It doesn't cost a warrior XP to make masterwork plate, and if the spells in question do not cost XP in and of themselves, I don't see why it is justified in extracting XP from the caster in the first place to imbue the item. Okay, I understand the mechanics about it. MinusInnocence is eloquent in explaining that. But I still don't agree with it. I don't agree that one group of characters have to give up XP while no other characters have to (short of draining and negative levels). I don't see a fighter losing XP for utilizing his feats, or for creating masterwork items. I don't see why a spell caster should either. I'm a throwback to second edition in this sense, where the creator of a magic item earned the XP value of that item. It gave people a reason to spend the money and time to make whatever item, and you can still do the same thing in 3.x. Only instead of making them spend XP on the item, don't make them spend XP, but don't give them XP for the item either. Make it a balance issue. Because a crafter making a magic item and earning the XP value for it can level monstrously fast, faster than a fighter who might at best make a masterwork suit of Full Plate or a masterwork weapon (assuming you grant XP value equal to gp value for the item). Okay, I've had my rant against it, and I'm sure to draw some disparaging commentary for it, or someone who thinks I need a better explanation of how and why the system works that way. I don't, but I can see it happening. What we do is what works for us, and I'm not saying that anyone else should or has to do it. But this is what works for us: Anyone who creates something non-magical earns the GP value for the item (masterwork items, regular items, whatever) in XP. Magic Item crafters don't have to spend XP anymore, but any XP costs are converted to gold and doubled. So if an item costs 25XP (which I think is the case with potions), it now costs an extra 50 gold instead. This is what works for us. Dash
nlumsden 10-09-04, 02:19 AM	Dash chimes in with a great idea. I have played in groups that use similar rules. I will offer an alternative that my group is just starting to use - note that this is not my original creation, it is taken from ideas posted here on the boards. The Token Rewards System The idea is that certain roleplaying experience is awarded in the form of tokens (I use poker chips). Typically, I only award them for roleplaying above and beyond the norm or for a great sacrifice by a character that saves the group. Note: I don't award them for making a good roll. I award them for making a great roleplaying decision - for instance, the fighter throwing himself in the path of oncoming arrows when he is near-dead to save the cleric that is the party's only hope of recovery. A player has the opportunity to earn 1-5 tokens during a session based on the adventure and opportunities to roleplay. Regular experience is still awarded normally, including ad-hoc experience, etc. What do the tokens do? The tokens have three functions for our group. 1. It is worth experience. 25 xp multiplied by your level. 2. It can be spent to reroll any check or save (not normally used, mostly in fatal situations). 3. It can be spent on the creation of magic items - this means that a fighter can give experience to a cleric to have the cleric brew some potions. Any left over experience goes to the fighter. The xp value is the same at in number 1. The players are free to turn in the tokens at any time or keep them indefinitely. At the end of a session I write down how many tokens they have and redistribute them at the next session. Again, this is an idea just recently adapted by our group. It was originally posted by others on these boards (if I knew their names I'd give them credit - so speak up if this is your creation).
ECOM 10-09-04, 03:01 AM	House rule Item creation feats Option 1 pay full cost of item to avoid xp loss (magic cost only if masterwork item is made for casting its cost can be reduce as per skill rules) Option 2 pay xp cost (this does not have to be the spell casters xp can be any willing pc or npc) Option 3 (my pc hate this one) :schemes: 7th level spell called drane life force allows caster to drane xp from a victom at the rate of 10 xp/rd to charge an item victom is entitled a fort save i dont have the spell stats handy i belive i made it necromancy with evil discriptor and i belive it takes three time as much xp to charge an item this way. I also remember that if the victum loses all xp from spell thier soul is traped in item and the item becomes intelagent.
MinusInnocence 10-09-04, 03:07 AM	ECOM's ideas are golden. Not only does it provide versatility any campaign can appreciate, the last option is also a kick-ass plothook (and since I've been mulling over a similar idea in my head for a long time about making ALL magical items intelligent in some fashion, I greatly appreciate it)!
Shadowmagyk 10-09-04, 04:09 AM	I'm a throwback to second edition in this sense, where the creator of a magic item earned the XP value of that item. It gave people a reason to spend the money and time to make whatever item, and you can still do the same thing in 3.x. Only instead of making them spend XP on the item, don't make them spend XP, but don't give them XP for the item either. Make it a balance issue. Because a crafter making a magic item and earning the XP value for it can level monstrously fast, faster than a fighter who might at best make a masterwork suit of Full Plate or a masterwork weapon (assuming you grant XP value equal to gp value for the item). I am not saying that you are incorrect in your thought, you just happened to leave out an important part of the creation process. Before you start reminiscing about the good ole' days, you need to remember that to create a magical item in 2e required the use of the Permanency spell. Unlike 3e, this spell caused a loss of 1 point of CON. This is much more dramatic than losing XP, especially for a WIZ, not to mention that this was an 8tj level spell, so you had to be 16th level to even create magic items. This is almost the case with potions and scrolls. In order to create a certain scroll, one had to quest to find the right quill, the right ink, the right paper, etc. After all this was obtained, calculations were made based upon the items that were just found, and then there is still a chance that the item fails to be made. In 3e, it is much easier. All one does is take a feat pay a little XP, and the item is created. You dont have to climb to the top of the mountain to have the first rays of the sun bless the weapon at the exact moment that you cast the spell onto the weapon. There is also a built in method to combat this loss of XP. Lower level characters get more XP for encounters than do higher level characters. This means that the Item Creator is free to create his items because he will get more XP later on. Yes, he may be a lower level than the rest of the party, but look at all the items that the party has that they did not have to find. Couple an Item Creator with being a Profession: Merchant, and you have yourself a pretty awesome business. So, it all boils down to the body being worn down by the process of creating permanently magical items. If your player does not want to lose XP for Item Creation, have him lose a point of CON each time he creates an item, or have him age a certin number of years based upon his race so that he gets to the older age categories faster, thus making him weaker. (As a side note, I hate the idea of the XP loss. However, the Item Creation system is much better than in previous editions. A trade-off had to be made to have items that are semi-instantaneously created at much lower levels. This trade-off is not permanent, either, as was explained two paragraphs above this.)
Dash Branaghan 10-09-04, 05:25 AM	I am not saying that you are incorrect in your thought, you just happened to leave out an important part of the creation process. Before you start reminiscing about the good ole' days, you need to remember that to create a magical item in 2e required the use of the Permanency spell. Unlike 3e, this spell caused a loss of 1 point of CON. This is much more dramatic than losing XP, especially for a WIZ, not to mention that this was an 8tj level spell, so you had to be 16th level to even create magic items. Which was why you bought scrolls of permanency. :D Dash
Shadowmagyk 10-09-04, 05:44 AM	Which was why you bought scrolls of permanency. :D Dash I believe that you are still confused. When it said that the Wizard, when using a scroll, did not need to do anything that normally needed to be done when casting a spell, it meant that the material and somatic components were not needed. The cost of the spell is still a loss of the CON. The only difference is that you did not need to wave your hands in the air to cast the spell. This is in the spell's description. It is the same as being aged ten years by the Haste spell. It is a result of casting the spell, not a process of casting the spell. (I think that I said this clearly.)
tridiak 10-09-04, 07:12 AM	I have never liked the concept of exp to create magic items. It's not logical to me. (Then again I don't spend hours thinking about it) Possibilities: • the char gains "real life" experience points. They gain X per week or whatever. The value will be much lower than what adventuring would give and how it is gained depends on the character's lifestyle. • item creation does not cost xp, but it has a point cost attached to creating it. Subtract the point cost from total of spellcaster level+Con+(other modifiers). If it is < 0, no more items can be made until the total is >0. The points "regenerate" at the rate of one per day/week/whatever. While the total is < 0, the char is fatigued. • no xp cost but a caster level check is made to successfully create the item (or maybe a new skill). The roll is made by the DM and take 10 is allowed (usually).
WWAD 10-09-04, 09:06 AM	I don't give XP for anything there isn't a die roll for. So for brew potion, they'd have to make a roll--probably spellcraft or something. The DC - 15 = CR. The CR is treated just like a monster encounter, so they get XP as if they had defeated a monster of CR X (minimum 1).
Kursk 10-09-04, 12:35 PM	3rd Ed made the manufacturing of magic items very mechanical and easy. No rare almost impossible to get ingredients. See 1st ed for example of how to make a +5 sword. If he wants XP just change the manufacturing method back. A potion of fire resistance would require the scale of a Large Red Dragon. You get the point...
Sasha Windsor 10-09-04, 02:07 PM	All of last night's posts were in favor of NOT changing the item creation system. Today, I see that a few that do not agree with that have come up. I like everyone's suggestions. They all sound very good, and would work well in thier gaming groups. I have definitely decided to stick to the rules as they are presented in the book. My only worry now is how to approach it when this topic comes up again. The player who is really arguing this point is new to the game, and I've been guiding his character's development. I may steer him away from brewing potions himself, and instead seek the Leadership feat at level 6 where he can simply have a clerical henchman who can brew potions for him (he already expressed an interest in this idea).
Dash Branaghan 10-09-04, 02:59 PM	My only worry now is how to approach it when this topic comes up again. The player who is really arguing this point is new to the game, and I've been guiding his character's development. I may steer him away from brewing potions himself, and instead seek the Leadership feat at level 6 where he can simply have a clerical henchman who can brew potions for him (he already expressed an interest in this idea). Well, if you are sticking to the RAW, then tell him that you are sticking to the RAW. If he plans to become a potion making factory, this may inhibit him because of the overall XP cost, but if he is just making certain potions from time to time, it shouldn't be that big a deal. Taking leadership to get a henchman just for the purpose of making potions...that to me is almost abusing him. A good leader (IMO) will do the things that he or she expects the underling to do. They will share in the cost. A hireling on the other hand is paid to do that sort of thing, and maybe that is a better route. But as far as explaining why, just tell him you are sticking to the RAW because there are too many possible abuses outside of it. I'm sure they'll understand. Shadowmagyck Aye, it has been awhile, but our interpretation of scrolls was that the spell itself (with all consequences) was already created, and thus there was no cost to a scroll user using a permanency scroll (same principle as 3.x...all materials and foci are consumed in the making of the scroll). A 1st level mage in 2e could use a permanency scroll if they wanted to, despite the pre-reqs, as long as they had read magic. Alternatively you paid someone to cast it. It really didn't matter since there are a number of ways around it, usually GP related. Dash
Sasha Windsor 10-09-04, 03:05 PM	Very true Dash. That is something I will have to mention before he picks up the feat. I don't want him to feel like he was cheated if I have his henchman walk out on him for being abused.
Phrennzy 10-09-04, 03:23 PM	I had this same conversation with the cleric's player. I explained that it is solely a game balancing rule, and he said, "Okay." I have also offered to replace the gold and/or experience with exotic ingredients on a case by case basis, and each case would be different. ALong the lines of the earlier mentioned "Blood of a Red Dragon" and all that. They like that idea.
Shadowmagyk 10-09-04, 03:50 PM	Shadowmagyck Aye, it has been awhile, but our interpretation of scrolls was that the spell itself (with all consequences) was already created, and thus there was no cost to a scroll user using a permanency scroll (same principle as 3.x...all materials and foci are consumed in the making of the scroll). A 1st level mage in 2e could use a permanency scroll if they wanted to, despite the pre-reqs, as long as they had read magic. Alternatively you paid someone to cast it. It really didn't matter since there are a number of ways around it, usually GP related. Dash Ah ha... so, it is a house rule. I understand now, but then I would expect that it would cost a great deal of money to have a Permanency scroll. If I were the DM, I would make the PCs perform a quest for the WIZARD giving you the scroll. no penalty for scroll use seems to be cheating hte system.
ECOM 10-09-04, 03:57 PM	ECOM's ideas are golden. Not only does it provide versatility any campaign can appreciate, the last option is also a kick-ass plothook (and since I've been mulling over a similar idea in my head for a long time about making ALL magical items intelligent in some fashion, I greatly appreciate it)! Thankyou praise is golden also expecally from a medalist. :D Hope the spell helps and is not to confusing
One Wolf 10-09-04, 03:57 PM	Also remember, if you are gaining xp for brewing a potion, not only are you simply getting potions for half price, but you are effectively buying experience points. And if you consider that you are also getting a product for that price thay are essentially free experience points. That's just not right.
Fixxxer 10-09-04, 11:57 PM	I've found one thing that works pretty well when dealing with someone who believes that magic item creation should give XP to the spellcaster. Just assume that it does give XP to the spellcaster, but it takes more XP away than it gives. Thus, if an item has a listed XP cost of 10,000XP to create, assume it actually has a cost of 10,500, but the spellcaster gets 500XP for creating it.
Kronk LaSworda 10-11-04, 04:20 PM	IMHO, you should not award XP for creating potions and such. In 3rd edition, potions and scrolls are INCREDIBLY easy to make. A first level wizard can make scrolls right out of the gate. XP is there for game balance. Otherwise, your party wizard can sit in town for 2 weeks making scrolls before every adventure. Compare this with 2nd edition. I don'e want to start an arguement for which is better. That is not my intent as I play and enjoy both. Just look at the differences. In 2nd edition, you had to be 7th level to make scrolls, 9th level to make potions (I think) and 11th level to make magic items. Also, there was a much higher EP gap between levels. Meaning: Scrolls and potions actually meant something. They were rare and special, for better or for worse. The DM guide suggested pricey spell components that couldn't be bought, but rather found through adventures and quests. Now then, in 3rd edition, the XP cost makes sense in terms of balance. I hope that helps in some small way.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 10-11-04, 04:59 PM	Item creation is changed as follows. A series of craft checks are made, one for each day of work. If you fail any check by 10 or more the item is ruined. Time and materials are wasted. You take the XP loss. If you fail by less than ten, then a day of work is added on to the total time required, and additional material costs of +1% of total cost is added. You must make another craft check roll to see if it is still possible for this item to be a master work item. If this check fails you may choose to abandon the project at no XP penalty. Materials costs are still incurred. If you succeed the craft roll by not more than ten then the work is on schedual, and budget. You will not take any XP loss for this item. The item will be master work quality. If you succeed the craft roll by more than 10 then one day is removed from the total required time. Materials have been used effeciently, and the total cost is reduced by 1%. You gain XP. This item is considered exceptional and will command a higher price (20%) if it is sold. This makes creation a risk. So brewing that potion might give you XP or it could blow up in your face, costing you XP. I think the creation of items shouldn't be a given. Players need to know in advance they could fail. This also makes creating an item a bit more exciting. Also makes putting those skill points in craft a bit more meaningful. Ajust the creation DC as you see fit, for the complexity of the item.
Conaill 10-11-04, 06:43 PM	Keep in mind that you can also hire a spellcaster, at a market cost of 5gp per XP. So in theory, at the normal D&D magic levels it shoudl be reasonably balanced to charge the caster 5 extra gp per XP instead. I believe that works out to a component cost which is 70% of the market cost. If you want a world in which magic items are slightly more rare, you could easily charge the caster the full market cost to craft an item. Limited availability means that he'd still be better off making the item himself, rather than trying to find someone who can sell it to him. IIRC, the DMG also mentions "power components", which are special ingredients you can use to waive the need for XP in crafting magic items. Again, these special components should be priced *at least* at 5gp per XP saved in item creation. Even better if they have to quest for them themselves...
Tifus Artwin 10-11-04, 07:59 PM	This has never came up in my current group. But i have always have institutide the rule from Epic, that other people can expend some of there own XP to help the creation of Magic Items, Scrolls, Potions, ect. but the one makeing the Item ie. the one with the feat and that meets atleast half the requierments ( in the case of getting a spell cast for you by an NPC, or from a scroll then that counts as meeting the requierments) must still atleast pay half the XP cost. At the same time however, (no i dont let my players know this unless they ask) I am a 2ed player, and i like the exotic components feature and so if the players wish to get the exotic components they can reduce the cost in GP/XP depending on what they get for it, So if they wanted to make a staff of fire they could use the spear of a Salamander, add the blood of a Red Dragon, and do all the enchanting in the heart of an active volcano then that would more or less reduce all the cost to almost nothing. If the argument came up in my group to gain XP for making Magic Items, then i would be willing to award XP based on the item itself, as if it was a encounter ranging from 1-5 CR at the best for defrent items, Say they was making a potion of whatever from a 1st lvl spell, that would be a CR of a creater of that lvl, say a CR-1/2 for a simple potion but would be closer to a CR-5 for a staff of the magi. But as it stands, for the new rules, it seems balanced enough for me and so i will not be granting XP for Item Creation. (If more of my players started making more items and wasnt in it just for the money gain/save then id be more tempted to give the XP for Item creation. It would be my advise, that you SHOULD NOT give XP for makeing the Items, but maybe make some rules in order to off set the cost of makeing magic items, such as the feather of a cockraticy for a scroll of petrification, and the ground scales from a Gorgon to make a scroll of Petrefication that wouldnt cost any XP, and about half the normal GP maybe? Tifus Edit: Also, explain that XP is not just life force but also the very Knowledge that the person has gained over ther caree, and its not easy to keep that knowledge after you have already used it in the makeing of one item, when each one requires its very own methiod to its creation. Its not like makeing a set of Plate armor that you can make the same way everytime. Magic is something that constantly changes, and what worked one time before might not work again the next time. Also, check out Dragon Magazine issue 317, ( Powering magic with Monstrous Ingredients) pg. 44-49. It has a few power components in there that you can use in casting spells, and in Item creation as well.
zambuka 10-11-04, 08:05 PM	One option, if you are not going to have the characters "spend" XP in item creation is to work it as an XP debt. ie keep track of how much XP they use up in creating the magic items and then subtract this from the next round of XP awards. This distributes the cost of magic item creation to the whole party. eg Party wiz spends 300 XP brewing up a whole pile of buff potions (bulls strength, cats grace etc) and gives distributes them to the party before the next fight. She doesn't take any XP from her character sheet. Instead you take the XP out of the total awarded for the next encounter. Say the award would be 2000 XP before dividing among the party, the get 1700 XP to divide instead. It is a little extra book keeping but it does keep the balance. Keep NPC item creation the same unless you want to create a world where magic is available in every corner store. If they go nuts and spend a couple of hundred thousand worth of XP on magic then they just won't be getting any XP for some time. But what ever you do, do not give XP for item creation. This breaks things a lot.
Shadowmagyk 10-11-04, 11:54 PM	One option, if you are not going to have the characters "spend" XP in item creation is to work it as an XP debt. ie keep track of how much XP they use up in creating the magic items and then subtract this from the next round of XP awards. This distributes the cost of magic item creation to the whole party. eg Party wiz spends 300 XP brewing up a whole pile of buff potions (bulls strength, cats grace etc) and gives distributes them to the party before the next fight. She doesn't take any XP from her character sheet. Instead you take the XP out of the total awarded for the next encounter. Say the award would be 2000 XP before dividing among the party, the get 1700 XP to divide instead. It is a little extra book keeping but it does keep the balance. Keep NPC item creation the same unless you want to create a world where magic is available in every corner store. If they go nuts and spend a couple of hundred thousand worth of XP on magic then they just won't be getting any XP for some time. But what ever you do, do not give XP for item creation. This breaks things a lot. Instead of taking XP from the next time it is awarded (which can result in the problem of not receiving XP), add the cost of the item to the character , and compare it to the "character wealth per level" chart to see where the party stands. If their items equate to a higher level, then raise the CR of the creatures that they fight. This is the only way that I can see to combat the effect of not losing XP for item creation (if the GP is not substituted for XP).
Grayson 10-12-04, 04:29 PM	I have also offered to replace the gold and/or experience with exotic ingredients on a case by case basis, and each case would be different. ALong the lines of the earlier mentioned "Blood of a Red Dragon" and all that. They like that idea. Ditto. It's what I'm doing in my current campaign, although none of the players are doing any crafting yet.