Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gauze Fireforge 03-27-06, 03:50 AM	Hi, A simple question that gets alot of debate amongst my group. When both sides become aware of each other( no surprise round), initive is rolled and those who haven't acted in combat are flat-footed, pretty straight forward. Now say that both groups of individuals are aware of each other for some time, say 2 rounds. The BBEG gives his world ending speech which the PC's listen to and give their own explanations on how the BBEG will be stopped etc. Now say that the BBEG says, you will die horribly and begins casting. Inititive is rolled and the BBEG goes first. Now everyone has been aware of each other for some time but only now is inititive called for. For those who haven't acted they are technically flat footed as they haven't acted hence sneak attack and so on and so forth. So my question is, even if there is more than 1 round of awareness between combatants, those who haven't acted in inititive are flat footed correct (I believe so but others in the group disagree) Cheers
Gothargaroth 03-27-06, 04:19 AM	The answer, going by the book, is yes, but I hate that rule. In my games only surprised characters are caught flat-footed. If a character is aware of an enemy but simply acts slightly slower (lower initiative) that doesn't seem to logically result in a sneak attack or lower armor class--at least not to me. Admittedly, rogue players are fond of the rules as written, but I think they're idiotic.
Gray Eminence 03-27-06, 05:04 AM	You should check out this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051129a). Quite useful.
FriendoftheDork 03-27-06, 08:06 AM	Hi, A simple question that gets alot of debate amongst my group. When both sides become aware of each other( no surprise round), initive is rolled and those who haven't acted in combat are flat-footed, pretty straight forward. Now say that both groups of individuals are aware of each other for some time, say 2 rounds. The BBEG gives his world ending speech which the PC's listen to and give their own explanations on how the BBEG will be stopped etc. Now say that the BBEG says, you will die horribly and begins casting. Inititive is rolled and the BBEG goes first. Now everyone has been aware of each other for some time but only now is inititive called for. For those who haven't acted they are technically flat footed as they haven't acted hence sneak attack and so on and so forth. So my question is, even if there is more than 1 round of awareness between combatants, those who haven't acted in inititive are flat footed correct (I believe so but others in the group disagree) Cheers Well if it's not clear that the BBEG will attack them after he's done monologing, then yes I would handle it like that. If it's pretty clear though (as this example is) then you don't give the BBEG the chance to automatically attack first. As he says "you'll all die horribly" initative is rolled, and the BBEG can be as flat-footed as the rest. But why not just roll initative as soon as they see eachother? Well, the thing is that when a player rolls initative he feels obligated to start the attack asap or he thinks he will waste time. Also, this will probably ruin the whole BBEG speech, which quite frankly can be fun to listen to and argue against before the combat begins. Realistic? No, but fun :). Just as long as you don't give the BBEG any unfair advantage. Or every other time, when the BBEG starts monologing, one of the player will just go "I shoot him in the face". But until they have acted, they are flat-footed. This is not because of awareness (as some DMs think) but because they haven't started moving yet, and need some time to accelerate and react.
zodiki 03-27-06, 08:08 AM	When the rules are vague, common sense should prevail. In this case, everybody has already acted even if that act was just readied or delayed. Unless for some reason, the Party thought the BBEG was an ally, and didn't expect to be attacked, no one should be flat-footed.
FriendoftheDork 03-27-06, 08:20 AM	When the rules are vague, common sense should prevail. In this case, everybody has already acted even if that act was just readied or delayed. Unless for some reason, the Party thought the BBEG was an ally, and didn't expect to be attacked, no one should be flat-footed. The rules are not vague, they specifically state that until you have acted you are flat-footed. It doesen't matter if you're aware or not. And you can neither delay or ready actions outside initative. So unless you roll initative as soon as they become aware of eachother, they are flat-footed. Using common sense=house rule.
Rivelstraz 03-27-06, 09:44 AM	I'm not a fan of this rule neither. However, is not that bad. I'm playing a Conan campaign, and the same rule applies. However, since there's no armor bonus to the AC, when you get caught flat-footed, you got AC 10. Losing initiative means losing the combat most times, since if you don't receive 3-4 sneak attacks, it'll be a soldier using Attack Power. Remember, AC 10 till its your turn.
OravennasBrother 03-27-06, 10:59 AM	The fighter with quickdraw readies a partial action on his initiative while the talkers blather on. His action is "I prepare to draw my sword and smack the BBEG when he says something I don't like." BBEG Monologues "And now you die" Well the monologue is the BBEG action, and it provoked a responce from a readied action, so the fighter is not only NOT suprised, he acts first (unless the BBEG was reasying an action while e monologueing "as soon as they react to my taunts I wll cast spell X) and gets a partial charge against the BBEG. Another option for devious players, one which I have used myself, is to pretend to defect ("Just a moment, I was hired by these guys to come in here and clear out zombies, nothing was said about Wizards, If I can get a bid from you we might be able to work out an agreement wherein I join your side.") and then spring on the BBEG as soon as you close the range. A similar problem can arise is you have legal duels where a signal is given to "start" Both combatants are anticipating the start signal so both have readied actions - no being caught unaware/flatfooted/whatever.
beat_takeshi 03-27-06, 12:09 PM	They both knew they were enemies, hence they have acted in front of each other, they just decided to do nothing in their action but listen or talk. Or the bbeg tried to intimadate them and they tried to intimidate him so they have both taken actions.
ressurrector 03-27-06, 02:02 PM	In the example of everyone watching the BBEG, just concider that they have readied actions for when he does something. This is both by the rules, and means that they are not flatfooted. It is probably assumed that whenever opposing groups are watching eachother and waiting for something, they have readied actions.
revnk 03-27-06, 02:58 PM	The answer, going by the book, is yes, but I hate that rule. In my games only surprised characters are caught flat-footed. If a character is aware of an enemy but simply acts slightly slower (lower initiative) that doesn't seem to logically result in a sneak attack or lower armor class--at least not to me. Admittedly, rogue players are fond of the rules as written, but I think they're idiotic. I completely agree, and use the same houserule.
Gauze Fireforge 03-27-06, 10:51 PM	The fighter with quickdraw readies a partial action on his initiative while the talkers blather on. His action is "I prepare to draw my sword and smack the BBEG when he says something I don't like." BBEG Monologues "And now you die" Well the monologue is the BBEG action, and it provoked a responce from a readied action, so the fighter is not only NOT suprised, he acts first (unless the BBEG was reasying an action while e monologueing "as soon as they react to my taunts I wll cast spell X) and gets a partial charge against the BBEG. Another option for devious players, one which I have used myself, is to pretend to defect ("Just a moment, I was hired by these guys to come in here and clear out zombies, nothing was said about Wizards, If I can get a bid from you we might be able to work out an agreement wherein I join your side.") and then spring on the BBEG as soon as you close the range. A similar problem can arise is you have legal duels where a signal is given to "start" Both combatants are anticipating the start signal so both have readied actions - no being caught unaware/flatfooted/whatever. Unfortunately you cant ready or delay if it isn't already in combat (ie inititive) PHB p160 "Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the inititive order" Otherwise you would have all sorts of chaos. The problem for me is that the PHB and DMG all refer to awareness as far as determining whether you can act in the surprise round or not. Now is this awareness of an immediate threat or awareness of a potential threat? I am thinking of just making the blanket statement to my group of "if you aint acted in inititive, flat footed you will be" I personally think common sense has a strong component in the game but when something as fundamental as this draws out a debate about realism and rules, I am just inclined to play the game as the rules are written just to keep it simple and linear for everyone to understand. I am not about to come up with a series of scenarios where this would or wouldn't apply, it just bogs the game down. thanks for the input so far though.
WCH 03-27-06, 10:57 PM	Depends on the PCs disposition. If they say "I draw my weapon and watch him for any sudden movements," then definitely not flat footed. If they just walk in and talk to him without really expecting a fight to break out, then definitely flat footed. Knowing someone is there, even knowing he wishes you ill, doesn't mean you'll have your hands up in time if he decides to sucker punch you, which is basically what going first in the initiative is doing.
rogar2465 03-28-06, 08:25 AM	I'm not sure but I didn't think you needed to be in initiative to say I ready an action to shoot the first person to open that door, then stand there with your holy mighty comp. longbow of shoking +3, for 15 Min., and when your dad comes through either decide not to, or let fly. Just my 2 cents Rogar