[B]Magical Armor[/B] ?????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

[B]Magical Armor[/B] ?????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kitlillyka
08-15-05, 12:17 AM Is it possible to use both Mage Armor and Shield both at once, assuming of course the caster is able to cast both spells, would it become a +8 on the AC? Not clear on this as the PHB does not say one way or other in spell decriptions and technacaly one is armor and the other a shield.... ????? Any ruling on this, or mention at all. (Using 3.5 rules for Living Greyhawk) :confused:
Colmarr
08-15-05, 12:19 AM Yes it is possible. Armour bonuses stack with shield bonuses.
Kitlillyka
08-15-05, 12:22 AM You have allowed it in games or used it yourself?
WCH
08-15-05, 12:23 AM Rule of thumb: bonuses of the same name do not stack, but bonuses of different names do stack.

So... Mage Armour provides a +4 Armour bonus. A chain shirt provides a +4 Armour bonus. Shield provides a +4 Shield bonus. A heavy steel shield provides a +2 Shield bonus. Therefore, Shield and Mage Armour stack, but Mage Armour does not stack with a chain shirt, nor does Shield with a heavy steel shield.

This prevents AC from climbing too ridiculously high. A wizard can get 18 flat footed AC by using Mage Armour and Shield, but is still inferior to a Fighter's 22 flat footed AC from full plate and a tower shield. Since that fighter can't have Mage Armour or Shield added to him, since they wouldn't have any effect, 22 is his cap for now.
Kitlillyka
08-15-05, 12:28 AM cool thanks I was kind of hoping they would - tired of the sorc. always falling in attacks due to low AC
20goingon1232
08-15-05, 12:47 AM Umm... If your Sorc is getting into melee combat range, unless your build is built for it, you are doing something wrong, usually. How is your Sorc falling? Is it ranged attacks? If so, Protection from Missiles might be a better bet than Mage Armour + Shield, and it is certainly less spell slots used. Even my built for touch attack Sorc/Cle/MT only use Mage Armour.
WCH
08-15-05, 01:04 AM Agreed... a good Sorc only needs Spectral Hand (to deliver touch attacks without getting raped in melee), Protection from Arrows (to deal with those who don't require melee) and Expeditious Retreat (to get the hell away if the previous two fail). Globe of Invulnerability, Shield and Mage Armour never hurt, though. :D
20goingon1232
08-15-05, 06:09 PM Not if your ECL 9 guy has an AC of 32 usually that can be bumped to about 40 in a pinch.... I usually don't even bother with defensive casting.

Walk up to bad guy, cast Chill Touch. Kick, nat attack, nat attack. 3d6 damage + 3 Str damage if he failed his Fort saves (DC17). More if the attacks actually hit normally instead of just with the touch component.
MarkB
08-15-05, 07:14 PM A reasonably good approach is to use a wand for Mage Armour and learn Shield. That way you're not wasting a spells-known slot on a spell you're only going to cast a few times per day.
20goingon1232
08-15-05, 09:14 PM A reasonably good approach is to use a wand for Mage Armour and learn Shield. That way you're not wasting a spells-known slot on a spell you're only going to cast a few times per day.
The problem is casting a spell when the combat starts (and it is hard to figure out when combat will start unless you are going to barge into the BBEG's bedroom in the next 2 mins). That takes time. I prefer to use MA because I can cast it in the morning and forget about it for the next few hours, even days.

My standard battle tactic in that encounter is to cast MA early in the morning, and then cast Barkskin with my familiar as the touchy-feely guy. My character tend to have his hand in his left vest pocket most of the time. When a battle starts, he gives the familiar (a rat/mouse) in the pocket a pre-arranged series of taps and it discharges the spell into him who feeds it back to the familiar so both get the Barkskin. And then, he will cast Alter Form into an Ice Mephit (he is an Aasimar Sorc). As back-up, he also has Shield of Faith (another Touch spell) for the second battle of the day if that battle is beyond the Barkskin's duration.

By the end of the first round, I have a 32AC character with 50ft perfect fly. Then he casts Chill Touch and go to town.
gorion
08-16-05, 04:35 AM The problem is casting a spell when the combat starts (and it is hard to figure out when combat will start unless you are going to barge into the BBEG's bedroom in the next 2 mins). That takes time. I prefer to use MA because I can cast it in the morning and forget about it for the next few hours, even days.

My standard battle tactic in that encounter is to cast MA early in the morning, and then cast Barkskin with my familiar as the touchy-feely guy. My character tend to have his hand in his left vest pocket most of the time. When a battle starts, he gives the familiar (a rat/mouse) in the pocket a pre-arranged series of taps and it discharges the spell into him who feeds it back to the familiar so both get the Barkskin. And then, he will cast Alter Form into an Ice Mephit (he is an Aasimar Sorc). As back-up, he also has Shield of Faith (another Touch spell) for the second battle of the day if that battle is beyond the Barkskin's duration.

By the end of the first round, I have a 32AC character with 50ft perfect fly. Then he casts Chill Touch and go to town.

What kind of Sorcerer are you using? Barksin and Shield of faith? that's not a standard one for sure..
Cantankerous
08-16-05, 05:21 AM It's all campaign dependant. A 1st or 2nd level Sorcerer (probably what we're talking about here with those two 1st level spells being discussed) can be a pretty fair up front fighter with those two spells buffing him. Together they raise his AC by 8, the equivalent of suddenly donning half plate and a light steel shield sans penalties and movement deficeits.

In some games, those run closest to core rules especially, that is signifigant as hell for a low level character.

Isshia
VirgilCaine
08-16-05, 10:25 AM Of course, the only reason to use Shield over Mage Armor now is that it is not an armor bonus (thus it can be used with armor) and it blocks magic missiles. It also only works for half of the battlefield, introducing facing into an explicitly facing-less system.

Mage Armor lasts MUCH longer and works all around. But you can't combine Mage Armor and armor. Big whoop. :rolleyes:
MarkB
08-16-05, 11:54 AM Of course, the only reason to use Shield over Mage Armor now is that it is not an armor bonus (thus it can be used with armor) and it blocks magic missiles. It also only works for half of the battlefield, introducing facing into an explicitly facing-less system.
Not anymore. 3.5 removed Shield's facing anomoly, making it all-round protection, but dropped the bonus from 7 to 4 to compensate.

The reason to use Shield is that if you've got Shield and Mage Armour up, you've got a +8 bonus to AC, rather than the +4 of either one individually.

Once you're high enough level to afford a mithral buckler (and, later, add some enhancement bonuses to it), it becomes less useful; but then, so does Mage Armour once you can afford Bracers of Armour.
20goingon1232
08-16-05, 10:41 PM What kind of Sorcerer are you using? Barksin and Shield of faith? that's not a standard one for sure..
Aasimar Cle3/Sorc4 going into MT. Yes, it is sub-optimal. It was a "for fun" build. He uses Chill Touch in combat and Grease for battlefield control. Cle domains are Plant and Sun.

This is a Core only character.

Currently playing an Elf Drd2/Wiz1 character. She's gone from level 1 to 3 without any armour on. Her AC is 13. Period. She has also no attack spells (closest one is CLW and TS, I believe, until the end of last session where she got some new spells) and no defensive spells (Faerie Fire was the closest). But she kills things. With a shortbow. Zombies too, of all the things (they have DR 5/Slashing). I like the character. Fun to play, being a prankster at heart, and dropped my free good stat (after Int and Wis, a 15) into Cha instead of the more practical Str. I always felt that an elf woman without a Cha of at least 12 is just a human.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kitlillyka 08-15-05, 12:17 AM	Is it possible to use both Mage Armor and Shield both at once, assuming of course the caster is able to cast both spells, would it become a +8 on the AC? Not clear on this as the PHB does not say one way or other in spell decriptions and technacaly one is armor and the other a shield.... ????? Any ruling on this, or mention at all. (Using 3.5 rules for Living Greyhawk) :confused:
Colmarr 08-15-05, 12:19 AM	Yes it is possible. Armour bonuses stack with shield bonuses.
Kitlillyka 08-15-05, 12:22 AM	You have allowed it in games or used it yourself?
WCH 08-15-05, 12:23 AM	Rule of thumb: bonuses of the same name do not stack, but bonuses of different names do stack. So... Mage Armour provides a +4 Armour bonus. A chain shirt provides a +4 Armour bonus. Shield provides a +4 Shield bonus. A heavy steel shield provides a +2 Shield bonus. Therefore, Shield and Mage Armour stack, but Mage Armour does not stack with a chain shirt, nor does Shield with a heavy steel shield. This prevents AC from climbing too ridiculously high. A wizard can get 18 flat footed AC by using Mage Armour and Shield, but is still inferior to a Fighter's 22 flat footed AC from full plate and a tower shield. Since that fighter can't have Mage Armour or Shield added to him, since they wouldn't have any effect, 22 is his cap for now.
Kitlillyka 08-15-05, 12:28 AM	cool thanks I was kind of hoping they would - tired of the sorc. always falling in attacks due to low AC
20goingon1232 08-15-05, 12:47 AM	Umm... If your Sorc is getting into melee combat range, unless your build is built for it, you are doing something wrong, usually. How is your Sorc falling? Is it ranged attacks? If so, Protection from Missiles might be a better bet than Mage Armour + Shield, and it is certainly less spell slots used. Even my built for touch attack Sorc/Cle/MT only use Mage Armour.
WCH 08-15-05, 01:04 AM	Agreed... a good Sorc only needs Spectral Hand (to deliver touch attacks without getting raped in melee), Protection from Arrows (to deal with those who don't require melee) and Expeditious Retreat (to get the hell away if the previous two fail). Globe of Invulnerability, Shield and Mage Armour never hurt, though. :D
20goingon1232 08-15-05, 06:09 PM	Not if your ECL 9 guy has an AC of 32 usually that can be bumped to about 40 in a pinch.... I usually don't even bother with defensive casting. Walk up to bad guy, cast Chill Touch. Kick, nat attack, nat attack. 3d6 damage + 3 Str damage if he failed his Fort saves (DC17). More if the attacks actually hit normally instead of just with the touch component.
MarkB 08-15-05, 07:14 PM	A reasonably good approach is to use a wand for Mage Armour and learn Shield. That way you're not wasting a spells-known slot on a spell you're only going to cast a few times per day.
20goingon1232 08-15-05, 09:14 PM	A reasonably good approach is to use a wand for Mage Armour and learn Shield. That way you're not wasting a spells-known slot on a spell you're only going to cast a few times per day. The problem is casting a spell when the combat starts (and it is hard to figure out when combat will start unless you are going to barge into the BBEG's bedroom in the next 2 mins). That takes time. I prefer to use MA because I can cast it in the morning and forget about it for the next few hours, even days. My standard battle tactic in that encounter is to cast MA early in the morning, and then cast Barkskin with my familiar as the touchy-feely guy. My character tend to have his hand in his left vest pocket most of the time. When a battle starts, he gives the familiar (a rat/mouse) in the pocket a pre-arranged series of taps and it discharges the spell into him who feeds it back to the familiar so both get the Barkskin. And then, he will cast Alter Form into an Ice Mephit (he is an Aasimar Sorc). As back-up, he also has Shield of Faith (another Touch spell) for the second battle of the day if that battle is beyond the Barkskin's duration. By the end of the first round, I have a 32AC character with 50ft perfect fly. Then he casts Chill Touch and go to town.
gorion 08-16-05, 04:35 AM	The problem is casting a spell when the combat starts (and it is hard to figure out when combat will start unless you are going to barge into the BBEG's bedroom in the next 2 mins). That takes time. I prefer to use MA because I can cast it in the morning and forget about it for the next few hours, even days. My standard battle tactic in that encounter is to cast MA early in the morning, and then cast Barkskin with my familiar as the touchy-feely guy. My character tend to have his hand in his left vest pocket most of the time. When a battle starts, he gives the familiar (a rat/mouse) in the pocket a pre-arranged series of taps and it discharges the spell into him who feeds it back to the familiar so both get the Barkskin. And then, he will cast Alter Form into an Ice Mephit (he is an Aasimar Sorc). As back-up, he also has Shield of Faith (another Touch spell) for the second battle of the day if that battle is beyond the Barkskin's duration. By the end of the first round, I have a 32AC character with 50ft perfect fly. Then he casts Chill Touch and go to town. What kind of Sorcerer are you using? Barksin and Shield of faith? that's not a standard one for sure..
Cantankerous 08-16-05, 05:21 AM	It's all campaign dependant. A 1st or 2nd level Sorcerer (probably what we're talking about here with those two 1st level spells being discussed) can be a pretty fair up front fighter with those two spells buffing him. Together they raise his AC by 8, the equivalent of suddenly donning half plate and a light steel shield sans penalties and movement deficeits. In some games, those run closest to core rules especially, that is signifigant as hell for a low level character. Isshia
VirgilCaine 08-16-05, 10:25 AM	Of course, the only reason to use Shield over Mage Armor now is that it is not an armor bonus (thus it can be used with armor) and it blocks magic missiles. It also only works for half of the battlefield, introducing facing into an explicitly facing-less system. Mage Armor lasts MUCH longer and works all around. But you can't combine Mage Armor and armor. Big whoop. :rolleyes:
MarkB 08-16-05, 11:54 AM	Of course, the only reason to use Shield over Mage Armor now is that it is not an armor bonus (thus it can be used with armor) and it blocks magic missiles. It also only works for half of the battlefield, introducing facing into an explicitly facing-less system. Not anymore. 3.5 removed Shield's facing anomoly, making it all-round protection, but dropped the bonus from 7 to 4 to compensate. The reason to use Shield is that if you've got Shield and Mage Armour up, you've got a +8 bonus to AC, rather than the +4 of either one individually. Once you're high enough level to afford a mithral buckler (and, later, add some enhancement bonuses to it), it becomes less useful; but then, so does Mage Armour once you can afford Bracers of Armour.
20goingon1232 08-16-05, 10:41 PM	What kind of Sorcerer are you using? Barksin and Shield of faith? that's not a standard one for sure.. Aasimar Cle3/Sorc4 going into MT. Yes, it is sub-optimal. It was a "for fun" build. He uses Chill Touch in combat and Grease for battlefield control. Cle domains are Plant and Sun. This is a Core only character. Currently playing an Elf Drd2/Wiz1 character. She's gone from level 1 to 3 without any armour on. Her AC is 13. Period. She has also no attack spells (closest one is CLW and TS, I believe, until the end of last session where she got some new spells) and no defensive spells (Faerie Fire was the closest). But she kills things. With a shortbow. Zombies too, of all the things (they have DR 5/Slashing). I like the character. Fun to play, being a prankster at heart, and dropped my free good stat (after Int and Wis, a 15) into Cha instead of the more practical Str. I always felt that an elf woman without a Cha of at least 12 is just a human.....