Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:14 AM	http://www.gravett.org/pc/archives/evil_baby.jpg heres the backstory human paladin of tyr lvl 9 (me) elf wizard lvl 8 human fighter lvl 9 human cleric of torm lvl 9 well heres what happened and i think my DM was unfair but i wanted a DMs perspective and not on the players board so we were tasked to find a noble of waterdeeps baby that was kidnapped by a band of trolls. we follow the clues and find our target the baby in a cave being breast-fed(yea ew i know) by a dryad. well i didn't want the baby to be tainted anymore, so i swung forward and cut the dryads head off luckily the cleric sprung forward and caught the baby before it hit the ground. the party was really upset, but i explained that i used detect evil and saw it as a radiant red of evil (ok, it wasnt but hey it did keep the baby against the mothers will) at this point we being to loot the cave and i found a nice +2 falchion among other gear the wizard and fighter took. on our way back to waterdeep we spot this pair of ogre mages roaming up the path trail we passed before. we ducked down behind the fallen log of this large tree and the baby starts to cry. the cleric tried to coo it, calm it, but before the ogres got any close i pulled out my dagger and coup de graced it (natural 20, :censored: ) the party stares hard at me when i say "hey, there's always raise dead, am I right?" well my team mates took it with a smile and thought it was the best to do. DM stopped the game and basically told me my paladin would lose powers and my friends tried to came to my defense. so from the dms perspective was i wrong or right?
Count Arioch the 28th 06-10-05, 08:16 AM	From the DM's perspective you would have lost your powers the second you smited the non-evil dryad.
Zagan 06-10-05, 08:21 AM	damn ... because im a nice dm most of the time i would look away when we speak about the dryad but killing innocent babies ..? well if you didnt want to enter the blackguard prestige class then you played the paladin the wrong way and now you must pay for it .
The nameles one 06-10-05, 08:21 AM	Eh, may I ask What the :censored: is up with th pic?! Say hello to my Ignore list, :censored:
Bjorn the Wanderer 06-10-05, 08:22 AM	I would take your powers away as well. Have you ever hear of communication??? The bady was taken by trolls no by the Dryad. Ever think that maybe the dryad saved the baby from the trolls. Being a paladin is about doing what is good. No about killing everything. The baby and the dryad were both not evil and as such in combination definately enough to lose them. Especially the baby as it is completely defenseless. Try taking a few ranks in deplomacy and pray you can find atonement cause your going to needed it.
Santrilla 06-10-05, 08:23 AM	Wrong. You killed a non-evil dryad and a baby, for crying out loud. Look at it this way. Primary objective: save baby. Secondary objective: don't get spotted by the ogres. In fulfulling your secondary objective you screwed up on the primary one. There were other ways to keep the kid quiet- gag it, perhaps, or coo/calm it as the others were trying. But you killed it. Byebye code of conduct, byebye paladin powers.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:26 AM	yea but come on raise dead its like super glue but better. we can still bring the kid back know what i mean? :confused:
High Octane 06-10-05, 08:28 AM	.......This has GOT to be a joke thread.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-10-05, 08:29 AM	yea but come on raise dead its like super glue but better. we can still bring the kid back know what i mean? :confused: Do you have a 5,000 gp diamond on you? Also, you DO know that since that baby probably doesn't ahve class levels, he's losing a point of con? You've still crippled the child for no reason at all.
morning star 06-10-05, 08:32 AM	that's the flippent excuse of a common fighter. a paladin sets himself up to a higher moral framework. he didn't get those fancy powers by playing fast and loose with the rules. say bye bye to all the good stuff..
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:32 AM	its not a joke man. i dont want to play a blackguard so any big tips would be nice
High Octane 06-10-05, 08:34 AM	Then stop slaughtering babies and innocent dryads. Admit to your DM you screwed up, seek atonement for your character, or play a new one.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:38 AM	hey come on i was trying to get the baby back and its not like i killed it when we were level 1 or 3. the party thinks what i did was good for us and the DM might be a little too mad about this. other than raise the baby what else is needed :confused:
morning star 06-10-05, 08:39 AM	you don't want to play a blackguard BUT you sure as shoot don't know how to play a paladin. read the class description again, then read the blackguard class description and then reread the alignment descriptions and take notes while you're at it. they might help.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-10-05, 08:41 AM	Or, stop wasting our time if you're not going to listen to us. Iron cobra, you are wrong. We are right. you can either listen to us, or keep wasting bandwidth with your lame replies. your call.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:43 AM	i know paladins can make mistakes, how big can the mistake be you think. maybe i can tell my dm that my paladin pleas insanity, do you think it would work? :confused:
High Octane 06-10-05, 08:48 AM	What you did was cruel. You didnt think about the baby's welfare, you thought about your own. You attacked a dryad for no good reason. You didnt want it to be TAINTED? What the hell kind of horsecrap is that? Its a baby feeding on a peaceful fey's milk. You turned to the sword immediately. Im willing to bet deep down you were hoping to get exp for it. Now Ive never died and never been brought back via resurrection in real life, but Im willing to venture that it is one HARROWING experience! And what if a deity is unwilling to cooperate? What if you cant find the money? Thats 10k in diamonds plus whatever the cleric's charge you. Tot top it all off, you attacked the dryad BEFORE securing the baby, putting it in mortal danger! I doubt the dryad was working for the trolls. Im almost completely sure it was just caring for the baby since the trolls wouldnt know HOW. It was just keeping a damn BABY fed and comfortable! AND YOU HACKED ITS HEAD OFF! You are not just evil, you are CRAZY.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:51 AM	im not crazy ok. dont yell at me, my gf does that enough. for all we know the dryad was going to sacrifice the baby to a tree or somethin and we could take better care of it in town. i wasnt hoping to get exp for it but try to do the right thing in a short amount of time :mad:
morning star 06-10-05, 08:52 AM	the only mistake is playing a lawful good paladin like some smart a... lawyer from ali mcbeal. again read the paladin class and alignment descriptions etc ... and it should become cristal clear. seriously sign off and do it now. you'll feel a lot better for it.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 08:57 AM	whos mcbeal? :confused: i know it looks a tiny bit bad but i did it with a good heart and didnt want the baby to be lost to some hidden evil. why doesnt anyone here see it my way :weep:
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 08:58 AM	Well maybe we are replying to a troll here but he... your paladin lied (glowing red evil) you killed innocents twice. 3 times lose powers. This PC can never be a paladin ever. Your DM is my hero. my two cents.
Cantankerous 06-10-05, 08:58 AM	Hmmm, the name: Iron Cobra obviously equals Troll. Good greif people, how gullable can you get? Killed a dryad because it was tainting the child? Killed the baby for nothing but the sake of expediency? If this weren't so grotesquely over done it would almost be funny, but come on. Yeeesh. Do not feed the REAL troll. Isshia
High Octane 06-10-05, 08:58 AM	Your concept of hidden evils really encourages us to think your character is insane. Thats called paranoia. Ill chalk it up that your character is not evil, just a sociopath with paranoid tendencies.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:04 AM	im no liar and no troll. it sounds a little funny but im telling you now i just want to get it over with and be a paladin again. i respect even though i did a few bad things but i know i can make it up. plz can someone not be mad and help me
morning star 06-10-05, 09:06 AM	if you seriously don't know who ali mcbeal is , then i'm jealous.:mymy: that show had a lot a nonsense about babies too....
AmanitaEata 06-10-05, 09:08 AM	Eh, may I ask What the :censored: is up with th pic?! Say hello to my Ignore list, :censored: Is everyone in Finland so humor-impaired, or is it just you?
The_Fan 06-10-05, 09:10 AM	Step 1: Admit to being wrong step 2: Recognize that not everything is an enemy and that killing has consequences regardless of whether or not you think you might be able to bring the person back step 3: Seek atonement from a cleric of your god, which will likely involve a nearly impossible quest considering the greivous nature of your sins. Step 4: Never do it again. Oh, and don't play a paladin until you're mature enough to understand what they're really about. People like you give them bad names.
The nameles one 06-10-05, 09:10 AM	Troll or not... Really I would give up the idea of atonment and playing paladins, for that matter. And for goodness sake why is that pic still there? Is everyone in Finland so humor-impaired? Yeah, pretty much. :D
The nameles one 06-10-05, 09:11 AM	(edit) Douple post... Kinda
morning star 06-10-05, 09:14 AM	if by help you mean say what happened is OK and you can be a paladin regardless .... well that's not going to happen. believe it or not we are helping. your approach is totally wrong for that class. and your attempts to justify your approach tell us that it's not going to change. so for the last time time. either read the alignment/class descriptions and see why what you did was not LG and why you must attone OR go play something else . anything else without alignment restrictions.
Aladdar 06-10-05, 09:17 AM	oh come on, the pics funny. However you are the dumbest player in the world if you think those things were good. Can we say anakin skywalker x 10. Even if you really did them for "the right reasons" you still turned way to the darkside. I would have stripped your powers and never let you have them back, your character would now be an NPC and you'd be rolling up a new character who is not a paladin.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:19 AM	ok guys im back i made a sandwich. well so far i have a few ideas on what to do but i like dnd so far and really want to keep playing. if you think i could still have potential even after this little mistake tell me what is the best to do from this point on. i wont see my dm till later today anyhow and gives me time to think
The nameles one 06-10-05, 09:19 AM	Well, funny maybe but, damn when you see it the first time it creeps you out.
Steel Cobra 06-10-05, 09:20 AM	WTH you took my name and avitar and that pic is f***ed up man WTH mine is and original and you took it WTF!
Morka 06-10-05, 09:24 AM	so we were tasked to find a noble of waterdeeps baby that was kidnapped by a band of trolls. we follow the clues and find our target the baby in a cave being breast-fed(yea ew i know) by a dryad. well i didn't want the baby to be tainted anymore, so i swung forward and cut the dryads head off Ever heard about the feat Nymph's Kiss? It's an Exalted feat. That's how the dryad was "tainting" the baby. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. Raise Dead is not a crazy glue. It's an ordeal. While an hero could accept it, imposing this to an innocent only to avoid a few ogres a party of 10 level adventurers could have easily dispatched is a crime. It's official a baby has only 1 hd. I don't know what is the CON score for a baby, it's probably not very high. It's hard for a half-orc barbarian to loose 2 CON points; do you figure what is it for a baby with like 4 CON points? You excuse yourself by telling you did it for the greatest well-being of the group. That is Lawful Evil, my friend. Lawful Evil.
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 09:24 AM	:yuck: :thumbsdow Troll alert :bump:
snowlynx 06-10-05, 09:27 AM	Just because 'raise dead' exists in a world does not give the Paladin the right to kill innocents. I once saw a player try to make that argument, and he only got away with it because the DM didn't want to take away his exalted status... Regardless...yes, you should have lost your powers. Your choices are probably to continue playing your character (without his powers), since your character clearly doesn't feel remorse for the situation; or to play a new character who doesn't have alignment restrictions (so you don't have to worry as much about if your action is 'good', 'lawful', 'evil', or 'chaotic'.)
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:29 AM	im not an evil person ok? i didnt do this for me i didnt have anything to get from this. i just need the best plan to do now so i can keep playing the game as a good guy even if it means bad setacks. :mad:
ArtEChoke 06-10-05, 09:29 AM	Interesting, So the story goes... a group of alleged (yet unsubstantiated) trolls kidnaps a baby, but does not kill it. the baby is found, not with trolls, but a dryad, who is nurturing the baby. the dryad is summarily dispatched. the party takes the baby, and uh... kills it. ...and in the end, it turns out the baby is in the clutches of a troll after all! Self fulfulling prophecy! That's so epic!
The_Fan 06-10-05, 09:29 AM	I'm not thinking troll so much as very immature. I'd estimate age to be around 10 or 11, possibly as high as 15 if they have some emotional/social development disorder.* We should all just back off a bit and maybe he won't feel like he has to defend his point so much. *I myself have one, so I'm not insulting, just stating a possibility
morning star 06-10-05, 09:29 AM	nobody said stop playing. but i'm going to take you at face value for this post and wind back the clock with a suggestion. ask the dryad for the baby. nicely. then protect it like a human shield until you're out of danger. and beg or bully the other players to cover your butt while you're doing it.
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 09:32 AM	Interesting, So the story goes... a group of alleged (yet unsubstantiated) trolls kidnaps a baby, but does not kill it. the baby is found, not with trolls, but a dryad, who is nurturing the baby. the dryad is summarily dispatched. the party takes the baby, and uh... kills it. ...and in the end, it turns out the baby is in the clutches of a troll after all! Self fulfulling prophecy! That's so epic! Utterly brilliant!!!!!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:37 AM	you guys got a wierd sense of humor but ok. i might ask my dm if we coulld rewind but im not sure if hes cool with that. so if i cant do that what then can i do (someone said atonement not sure what that is)
Beer-Ogre 06-10-05, 09:40 AM	The starter of this thread is either: A) 10 years old. B) Just messing with us and is succeding by the look of it. or C) Is a frigging moron.
Morka 06-10-05, 09:41 AM	ok guys im back i made a sandwich. well so far i have a few ideas on what to do but i like dnd so far and really want to keep playing. if you think i could still have potential even after this little mistake tell me what is the best to do from this point on. i wont see my dm till later today anyhow and gives me time to think Here's a few quotes to help you to think: - When one fights with monsters, on should look to it that he does not become a monster. When you gaze deep into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you. - We vowed to fight evil both around us and inside us. - "Success is never final and failure never fatal. It's courage that counts." -- George F. Tiltonood - "A man's life is interesting primarily when he had failed - for it's a sign that he tried to surpass himself." -- Georges Clemenceau - "No trumpets sound when the important decisions of our life are made. Destiny is made known silently." -- Agnes de Mille - "There is honor in doing your best." -- Orrin Hatch - "When we long for life without difficulties, remember that oaks grow strong in contrary winds and diamonds are made under pressure." -- Peter Marshal - "Don't wish it were easier; wish you were better. Don't wish for less problems; wish for more skills. Don't wish for less challenges; wish for more wisdom." -- Jim Rohn - "If you put out another's candle, you also will be in the dark." -- German Proverb - "He who conquers others is strong; he who conquers himself is mighty." -- Lao-tzu - "Nothing lasts forever - not even your troubles." -- Arnold H. Glasow - "I never make stupid mistakes. Only very, very clever ones." -- John Peel - "Failure should be our teacher, not our undertaker." -- John Maxwell - "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell - Build a man a fire and he is warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. - "The errors to avoid are those that eliminate opportunities to try again." -- Lazar Goldberg and, finally: - "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 09:41 AM	Don't forget the Lawful aspect of the Paladin's alignment. Its probably against the law to kill someone even if you raise them. At best that was a Chaotic Neutral act and at worst it was totally evil. Even if the baby is brought back to life its still harmed. You acted reclessly and heartlessly. Killing the Dryad was ridiculus too, what time did your party not have. You had a wizard didn't you Invisibility, move close enough to catch the baby then cast sleep, ghoul touch, tasha's hideous laughter or a similar stun spell on the dryad. Thats quick enough, and there's plenty of other possibilitys, like diplomacy.
snowlynx 06-10-05, 09:42 AM	Atonement is a spell that 'forgives' an individual for their deeds, but only if they recognize the fact that they've done wrong and are truly sorry for it.
Temrek 06-10-05, 09:44 AM	Atonament is a 5th level cleric spell that may restore your paladinhood but you need to make up for this. Good luck with that! You probubly have to slay an evil quasi diety or save thousends of people.
Steel Cobra 06-10-05, 09:45 AM	dude this guys a fake I mean come on he had to take my name anbd well my avitar and he made some thred about a baby with deamon eyes? I say this guys a moron or hes messing w/ us
The nameles one 06-10-05, 09:46 AM	The starter of this thread is either: A) 10 years old. B) Just messing with us and is succeding by the look of it. or C) Is a frigging moron. Well he doesnt have an age entry, so I would guess C. He doesent seem smart enough for B.
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 09:47 AM	ok guys im back i made a sandwich. well so far i have a few ideas on what to do but i like dnd so far and really want to keep playing. if you think i could still have potential even after this little mistake tell me what is the best to do from this point on. i wont see my dm till later today anyhow and gives me time to think Here's a good penalty. In addition to losing powers your diety's should punish you with an unremovable necklace that cry's like a baby thats really really mad (creative punishment rocks). It can only be removed if you atone. Your atonement will probably be very severe. You should first have to pay for the baby's ressurection, then make up for any constitution loss, in addition you'll probably have to go on some really big pilgrimage and save some 100 babies to make up for everything you've done.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:48 AM	actually guys im 14 and not a moron ok. its my second time playing dnd and so far i had fun until the baby went bye bye. then i started to see what a paladin is really like and now i want to make things better. ok so what i did was a little bad bu ti didnt do it to be bad do you know what im saying :confused:
morning star 06-10-05, 09:48 AM	attonement is basicly where you have lost of your special abilities and powers relating to a paladins class because you ( and believe me , you did ! ) "grossly violated the code of conduct" ( quote players handbook ) and must willingly seek to repent by means of quest or penance ( the DM decides. it'll follow the will of your diety ) to get them back. think of it as doing the time cos you did the crime. oh ... and it won't ( or shouldn't ) be easy , but it'll do you the world of good.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 09:52 AM	hey steel cobra who the heck are you? get off and dont jack my thread k?
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 09:54 AM	im not an evil person ok? i didnt do this for me i didnt have anything to get from this. i just need the best plan to do now so i can keep playing the game as a good guy even if it means bad setacks. :mad: Atone like crazy. It ain't going to be easy. You'll probably be atoning for many adventures. Or if your DM's really nice ask if you can do the adventure again this time, don't kill the dryad, and don't kill a baby.
Steel Cobra 06-10-05, 09:56 AM	HEY your the one that jacked my name and avitar I made it up you just came in here and stole and changed it a little WTF not cool! moron FINE IF YOU want me to stop PM me!
The nameles one 06-10-05, 09:58 AM	I dont konw if atonment is enough in this case, I mean killing children, a baby in this case, is so damn evil. No quest would be enough in my game to atone this.
wereooze 06-10-05, 10:05 AM	if you think i could still have potential even after this little mistake tell me what is the best to do from this point on. Your options are...... 1. Convert your character to a Cleric of Bane. I think you already passed the entrance exam for it. 2. Offer your DM money, pizza, a hummer or whatever it takes to even let you play D&D again (I personally wouldn't let you rejoin the group). 3. Ask to reroll a new character. Try to act like less of a pedocidal maniac with this one. 4. I personally don't think the diety TYR is going to buy your "insanity" plea. the gods don't even have a court system, let alone plea-bargains. I can think of no in-game action that could make up for such grossly repugnant actions from a Paladin of Justice. If Tyr doesn't smite you outright, he'd rather start over with a clean-slate paladin than try to reform you.
Phrennzy 06-10-05, 10:05 AM	You murdered an innocent. Cold and calculated. Knifed a baby. It doesn't get more un-paladin-like behavior than that. Not only would you lose your paladin abilities, you would be so far from redemption that you would never be able to atone.
snowlynx 06-10-05, 10:10 AM	I dont konw if atonment is enough in this case, I mean killing children, a baby in this case, is so damn evil. No quest would be enough in my game to atone this. I would have to say in my game, depends on cirumstances. After all, if the baby were actually a very young succubus, or the baby radiated evil, or the baby was part of a prophecy that it should grow up and destroy the kingdom or bring evil to the land, I might be a little more forgiving to the Paladin. If the baby and paladin were dying of starvation and thirst because they were trapped in some small room and there was no help coming, I might still make the paladin atone, but I wouldn't make it unforgivable. That's just cruelty to paladins. The circumstance this player speaks of...seems pretty clear cut; the Paladin had choices which were the good and honest path, and didn't follow them.
High Octane 06-10-05, 10:13 AM	2. Offer your DM money, pizza, a hummer or whatever it takes to even let you play D&D again (I personally wouldn't let you rejoin the group). You mean the CAR right?
wereooze 06-10-05, 10:15 AM	Um, yeah..... the car..... thats right. :P
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 10:16 AM	I would have to say in my game, depends on cirumstances. After all, if the baby were actually a very young succubus, or the baby radiated evil, or the baby was part of a prophecy that it should grow up and destroy the kingdom or bring evil to the land, I might be a little more forgiving to the Paladin. If the baby and paladin were dying of starvation and thirst because they were trapped in some small room and there was no help coming, I might still make the paladin atone, but I wouldn't make it unforgivable. That's just cruelty to paladins. The circumstance this player speaks of...seems pretty clear cut; the Paladin had choices which were the good and honest path, and didn't follow them. Yes, but we're talking a 14 year old, 2 time gamer here.... so no way.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 10:18 AM	hm who here did bad things and a paladin and had to atone maybe you could give me tips on how to act and all what you did
Carn Vandoril 06-10-05, 10:24 AM	Dear mister "Metal wurm", You don't need to know about atonement yet. you need to know what a paladin is first. So read, learn, talk to the dm, then roll a NEW character. Then return to the board when you commited a small evil act, and not the MOTHER OF ALL EVIL ACTS.... then we'll talk about atonement. hmm the mother of all evil acts... sounds like a new thread to me. Greetings.
crazysamaritan 06-10-05, 10:24 AM	actually guys im 14 and not a moron ok. its my second time playing dnd and so far i had fun until the baby went bye bye. then i started to see what a paladin is really like and now i want to make things better. ok so what i did was a little bad bu ti didnt do it to be bad do you know what im saying :confused:hrm... that should read:Actually guys, I'm 14, and not a moron, okay? This is my second time playing dnd, so far I've had a LOT of fun... Until the baby went bye bye, of course. Then I started to see what a paladin is really like, and now I want to make things better. Okay, so what I did was inexcusable, as a paladin, but I didn't do it to be evil. Do you know what I'm trying to say? :confused:Now that I've corrected your post, yes, I do. Apparently, you have limited experience in the field of education. Easiest to note would be the lack of elemetary education, spelling and grammer. Not that I'm really great at grammer, but capitalization, spacing, and periods/commas (don't worry so much about parenthasies and colons yet) are important for written communication. Another lack we can deduce is the lack of spiritual knowledge (or moral, if you prefer). Accourding to the dictionary, this makes you an amoral person (Immoral is basically evil, amoral means the lack of morals). I strongly suggest reading articles about the meaning of morality, and finding out information on paladins, templers, and samurai. The fewer pictures on the site, the better. This is generally indicative of more professionalism. One site I encourage the use of is the wikipedia. www.wikipedia.com is an excellent search engine that works on the principle that the people authoring the segments are good people who research the information presented. This is not always the case , but there should be enough information there on the code of honor, bushido, budo, chivalry, and manners that you can learn how characters in DnD should act. If you can then apply the good lessons to your life outside of DnD, that is commendable.
Missing Minds 06-10-05, 10:24 AM	actually guys im 14 and not a moron ok. its my second time playing dnd and so far i had fun until the baby went bye bye. then i started to see what a paladin is really like and now i want to make things better. ok so what i did was a little bad bu ti didnt do it to be bad do you know what im saying :confused: Fair enough. Real world aspect here. 14.... old enough to drive in Arkansas (via permit) For whatever reason, you go out and get drunk and drive home (aka take the head off the dryad without thinking, just acting.) because you think you can drive better than your more drunk friends. (I'll get to this part at the end) You lose control of the car and crash into another vehical killing a child instantly. (aka can't control the baby crying and so you slaughter him.) Now you, and I'll assume your character, are crying "I didn't mean it..." Tell me, you've now ruined the life of a family forever. How is that "a little bad"? How much sympathy do you think you are actually going to get from us? I like to think very few people ever kill an innocent on purpose. However, anyone that takes a life now has to live with it for the rest of their lives. We have laws and punishment in place to take care of people that commit such acts, but even after they serve their time, they still have to live with themself and possibly atone to the family/s they've ruined. I haven't read anyone here telling you to stop playing. What they have been saying, if indirectly, is that you need to stop whining about what you did, owe up to the fact, take the punishment, and if you really want to continue playing the character, make amends for the harm/evil your character has caused. D&D is not "hack and slash" all the time as your DM just proved to you. There are lots of aspects as you are now learning. You did say it was your second time.
Necron99 06-10-05, 10:27 AM	1) Catch the DM on a good day, and explain to him what your line of reasoning was, and bribe him/her with foodstuffs and ale. Re-read the Paladin source material, make some notes on your character sheet about your PERSONAL code, and whenever you find yourself in a situation, you can refer to them - Show it to the DM. Get him/her to sit down with you for a few hours while you straighten things out thusly... 2) Make Reparations to the offended parties, get resurections for both the child and the Dryad, make a lifelong vow to look after them (whether they accept or not). Promise you will never do it again. 3) Go to the most powerful Cleric of your order that you can find, apologize profusely, give all your worldly wealth to the church. Get an Atonement spell and a solo quest. Promise never to do it again. 4) Prostrate yourself before your companions, beg thier forgiveness, and promise never to do it again. As a DM, I would probably go for this.
Merestil Haye 06-10-05, 10:34 AM	Iron Cobra, this is not about you personally. it is about the consequences of your characters actions. Let's look a moment at what D&D says about being "good""Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.What this means is if a good character has a choice between hurting himself or hurting another, hurting himself is the good thing to do in that situation. It appears as if the character is prejudiced and impulsive. He acted on his prejudice. Were I your DM, I would have taken the paladin powers the moment you attacked the nymph. That you were spared is maybe because of the fact that it was your second time, or so you said. I would have allowed you to take back that action, this time. Then you lied. That is a bad act as well, and one that compounded the initial bad act. If things had been left like this you would have still been able to atone later and get your paladinhood back. Finally though, you had the character kill the baby. Your rationale is maybe based on a miunderstanding of morality, but nevertheless your character, who's entire existence centres around dispensing justice, killed someone who had never done anything wrong. Were I the DM I would have changed your alignment to Lawful Neutral, and you would not be allowed to regain your paladinhood at all - although you could atone for your actions and become Lawful Good again, you could never get your paladinhood back. Talk to the DM again and find out if he will let you atone. If not ask if he will let you roll up a new character and start again - you are relatively new at this game, and one mistake should not prevent you from trying again. Make sure you learn from the mistake the sort of things that are and are not reasonable to do.
Feriin 06-10-05, 10:54 AM	The OP is trolling.. If you guys remember I made a post recently on another thread that was pretty much I could rationalize killing babies for the glory of god. I am willing to bet this guy read it waited a few days and added a few things to it.
Thoronmir 06-10-05, 11:01 AM	I had written a detailed post about atonement and fallen Paladins, but screw it. The OP is a troll, his story is fake, and (if he’s serious) his character is the sorriest excuse for a Paladin I’ve ever heard of.
SwitchUK 06-10-05, 11:05 AM	EDIT: you know what? This guy is so obviously a troll that the previous contents of this post were just me falling into the idiocy trap. If you are a troll: Get a life. If you aren't: Get a brain. That is all.
Cantankerous 06-10-05, 11:20 AM	Ahhh, Steel, errrr Iron, errrr Ersatz Brass Garden Snake, if (utterly doubtful) you are not trolling this and laughing your bum off but really are 14, in what manner can you ever defend the concept of even lawful neutral, much less lawful good, much less Paladial status with a character that has spunked on every tennet of the Paladial Code, all in one session? Any DM not terminally stupid will not onyl strip the powers immediately (and should have after the action with the Dryad) but demand such an onerous Atonement that the character wouldn't be able to perform it for several levels worth of time. THAT, going without leveling up for a good while, MIGHT begin to reach the knees of proper player atonement for so utterly butchering the class; while the in character Atonement should start with your character sacrificing a permenant level to insure that the child survives the Resurrection (Raise Dead is right out of the question) which YOUR single character alone should be required to foot the bill for. And THAT would be the START of the Atonement process. Still wish to keep Paladial staus? Isshia
Winter's requiem 06-10-05, 11:50 AM	For God sake, Iron Cobra is 14, and thisa is his second time playing D&D, he does something wrong according to his alignmesnt, makes a post and people call him thing like an idiot and the like. Two years ago, when I was 12 I started to play D&D, and the second time I played I was DM, my player bought a staff that granted him +1 to cha for like three gold pieces, but since his cha was divideable on two, he didn't get pluss one mod, so I gave him +2 instead. I also resurected a player for 120 gold. If you think back I bet you remember that you also did things not according to the rules. Although it's true that this player should loose his paladinhood, I think some of the people who wrote on this tread is just mean.
Bruunwald 06-10-05, 12:13 PM	It's a paladin's duty to die in battle protecting the baby from the monsters, not to kill the baby to protect the party from the monsters. That's a simple thing to understand. Even my four-year-old child understands it.
danielinthewolvesden 06-10-05, 12:15 PM	Or, stop wasting our time You had it right there, and didn't need to go on. Feriin, Thoronmir & SwitchUK all have it right. Can we close this and give it a deserved rest, hmmm?
BeyondFated 06-10-05, 12:34 PM	I'm pretty sure that the PHB says that 'If a Paladin knowingly commits a act of evil, he/she may never again regain their paladinhood.' At least it did in 3.0. Killing a baby is in no way an act of good. It is evil, pure evil. I defy you to prove me wrong, I defy you! There is no way you could possibly ever come up with a good answer to that. The ends do not, I repeat, DO NOT justify the means in this case. Anyway, your actions deviate greatly from a Lawful Good standpoint. At best you would now be Chaotic Neutral, at worst Chaotic Evil. So therefor an Atonement spell still wouldn't work, you would be the wrong alignment. You would need at least two of such spells, one to change back to Lawful Good, and another to get your Paladin powers back. And good luck finding a cleric to cast that twice, much less a Lawful Good god to grant the spells. My advice to you? Start thinking about levels in fighter or barbarian, because the chances of you still being a paladin, are slim to none. I know I sound harsh, and I apologize, but I cannot for the life of me think of why you would do such a thing. The concept of a paladin is not hard to understand, you protect those that can't protect themselves. I belive that you should go reread the books until you have a firm grasp of the rules, then come back.
PHDrillSergeant 06-10-05, 12:45 PM	Remember, IC, that a paladin (especially one higher than lvl 1) would rather kill himself or be tortured to death than take an innocent life, let alone two. So if you want to remain a paladin, you are going to have to create a new character because BeyondFated is correct--should a paladin EVER commit an act of evil, he shall lose his paladinhood forever. End of story. However, I think that after this little "tyrade" you have learned a lesson about roleplaying--you don't do it right, you must deal with the consequences. A Paladin isn't just a fighter with cool cleric-like powers. A Paladin is the human embodiment of goodness, whose wish is to protect the innocent and the good from those who would cause destruction.
Trevor Goodchild 06-10-05, 12:51 PM	For God sake, Iron Cobra is 14, and thisa is his second time playing D&D, he does something wrong according to his alignmesnt, makes a post and people call him thing like an idiot and the like. Two years ago, when I was 12 I started to play D&D, and the second time I played I was DM, my player bought a staff that granted him +1 to cha for like three gold pieces, but since his cha was divideable on two, he didn't get pluss one mod, so I gave him +2 instead. I also resurected a player for 120 gold. If you think back I bet you remember that you also did things not according to the rules. Although it's true that this player should loose his paladinhood, I think some of the people who wrote on this tread is just mean. His excuse of being 14, and this his second game is probably the worst excuse Ive ever heard. I started when I was 13, and coincidentally also played a paladin. Guess how I died? I had my head chopped off while I was distracting a group of orcs so my party could carry a baby back to its home. I was a year younger than him, and I knew how to play a paladin better than he can type. 14 isn't a justifying excuse; its a sign of extreme immaturity.
Gedrin 06-10-05, 12:58 PM	I'm not sure this is entirely a legit post, but...why not... So...you killed the dryad. From what I see, she could have been a captive as well. Perhaps she was captured by the trolls specifically to feed the newborn? So you kill the only person who was giving any sort of comfort to the child. Someone who had recently (killed by the trolls?) lost her own child (if she's nursing, she had a child recently). Further, you killed a woman while she had a baby in her arms, placing the baby in danger. Finally, she's a single dryad vs. the party, not really a mortal threat to you, and given she's nursing the baby, not a threat to the baby. This was bad. Really bad. Really evil. You loose your paladinhood forever. BUT! This was not enough. You immediately thereafter told a blatant lie. You did not detect evil. You lied about this to the party in order to cover your own mistakes and avoid punishment for your actions. It was purposeful and overt, not to mention a lie about the use of your powers. This also is bad. It is evil to use a lie to cover up an evil action. You loose your paladinhood forever. WAIT! THERE'S MORE! Baby killing is wrong. Your character didn't have the guts to risk quieting a baby, and is obviously not worthy of the heroic ideal that is paladinhood. If you don't get why killing babies is wrong, there is nothing anyone can do to help you.
WCH 06-10-05, 01:01 PM	Have your Paladin perform Sepuko and roll up a CN fighter of the same level with the same equipment. Carry on. This is the single most ridiculous Paladin related question I've ever heard. It's like saying "My DM's being unfair to me! After I mutilated and raped a few bandits to set an example to the others so they'd tell me who hired them, he made me atone!" You clearly do not have the slightest concept of what "Lawful," "Good," or "Paladin" mean. If I were the DM, I would not only remove your paladin abilities, I would kick you from the group for reason of sheer incompetence and immaturity. Then again, I would never accept a 14 year old player, so what I would do to you is a little beside the point. Notwithstanding, your DM should not allow Atonement. Ever. Heironeous will not allow someone who would do things like this to represent him -- it simply can't be allowed to happen. Atonement is for those little moral dilemnas where you accidentally did something wrong. For example: Paladin zaps his wand of fireballs at the evil cultist, not realising that there are hostages within 10 feet of him, hidden behind a curtain. Completely not the Paladin's fault that they're dead, but the Paladin nevertheless must atone. Another example: overzealous Paladin sees a surrendering evil rogue, assumes it must be a trick and kills him -- intentional evil, requires the full penalties of the Atonement spell, but Atonement is still allowed because the act was reasonable. Slaying multiple innocents for no good reason at all is completely Chaotic Evil. It's the freaking definition of Chaotic Evil. Heck, even lying to the other PCs about how the Dryad detected should warrant an Atonement, as it's a very Chaotic act! This is why the Paladin is the worst class in existance and should never be played by someone who doesn't have years of experience and is mature enough to handle it.
Winter's requiem 06-10-05, 02:07 PM	His excuse of being 14, and this his second game is probably the worst excuse Ive ever heard. I started when I was 13, and coincidentally also played a paladin. Guess how I died? I had my head chopped off while I was distracting a group of orcs so my party could carry a baby back to its home. I was a year younger than him, and I knew how to play a paladin better than he can type. 14 isn't a justifying excuse; its a sign of extreme immaturity. Ok Trevor, now you are just being arogant, just because this guy play his paladin as well as you did, doesn't give people the rights to call him things. This forum site was made so roleplayers could discuss problems, and get help. Iron Cobra you didn't play your paladin good, according to your alignment, so make a new character and don't bother if the ones on this page tells you to not play a paladin again, play what ever you want, cuz the most important thing about D&D is to have fun, and if you had fun playing that paladin play another one, and remember what you have learned on this tread.
Zagan 06-10-05, 02:20 PM	seriously a 14 year old is terrorising this boards and pisses of Steel Cobra this is getting hilarious i must addmitt trolling becomes more and more popular ... :(
Always-Late 06-10-05, 02:23 PM	He didn't play his paladin good, he played it retarded. He played it like Arthas in WCIII (you know, the guy who burned his boats so his troops couldn't go home, blamed it on his mercenaries to save his party's ass, killed all the mercenaries, killed his friend after that, killed everybody in a plagued village, and finally went home and killed his father and mentor). It's not just that he made an incredible mistake, though. He was insisting he was right for an extended period of time. [/flame] Okay. You need to atone. Go to your DM and say your paladin discovered what a horrible evil thing he did, and now begs repentance. Start by resurrecting both the dryad and the baby. Then give them lots of compensation for that con/level drop. For example, 8,000 GP to both sounds good. Then go out and slay the evil lich dude who's terrorizing the land, and donate all his ill-gotten gains to your church. Maybe then you can be a paladin again. And hope that your god (or the DM) is feeling happy, but from the looks of it, "You are past redemption!"
9544683 06-10-05, 02:27 PM	Ok, first thing's first: Im sorry if im repeating anything anyone else has already said. Next up: This. I read in a similar thread that the best way to keep Paladins in line is to make them a special PrC... Ensure taht the PC is intent on following all of the Paladin's code of conduct somehow, then make it possible for the PC to become one. Make it a fighter PrC, or something... What you did, sir, is completely evil. Unless you are really an insane fighter with shiny armour, a mount, and blasphemous clothing, you stepped out of bounds and now you must pay. No amount of 'super glue' can fix this, OK? OK. *sigh*.... You did something bad, you dont want to take complete responsibility for it, and you got caught. Deal.
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 02:55 PM	1) Catch the DM on a good day, and explain to him what your line of reasoning was, and bribe him/her with foodstuffs and ale. Re-read the Paladin source material, make some notes on your character sheet about your PERSONAL code, and whenever you find yourself in a situation, you can refer to them - Show it to the DM. Get him/her to sit down with you for a few hours while you straighten things out thusly... 2) Make Reparations to the offended parties, get resurections for both the child and the Dryad, make a lifelong vow to look after them (whether they accept or not). Promise you will never do it again. 3) Go to the most powerful Cleric of your order that you can find, apologize profusely, give all your worldly wealth to the church. Get an Atonement spell and a solo quest. Promise never to do it again. 4) Prostrate yourself before your companions, beg thier forgiveness, and promise never to do it again. As a DM, I would probably go for this. Oddly enough his companion's thought killing the baby was a good Idea. This problem can't be solved in game. The best I can think of is Beg your DM to make the entire adventure a shared dream the party had. One of those Prophetic ones. If your DM agree's send him to this board and we can give suggestions.
Ni! 06-10-05, 03:01 PM	Your DM is so nice... You would have lost your powers the second you killed the Dryad if I was your DM. Find someone to cast attonement on you.
Andrew_980 06-10-05, 03:03 PM	I began playing at 8, six years younger than him. I knew that his actions are evil even then so if he doesn't he is far too immature to even write paladin on a character sheet. At his age he SHOULD know better, if he can read he will clearly see that his actions would result in permanent lose of paladinhood. He should play a fighter untill such time as he can understand morality enough to even try the paladin thing again
Always-Late 06-10-05, 03:05 PM	He'd better have no LG, NG, LN, or TN characters in his party.
DaveReaves 06-10-05, 03:53 PM	A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. Killing a baby so bad guys dont get you? Oh yea, thats evil. YOU SACRIFISED A CHILD TO SAVE YOUR OWN BUTT! Now go atone. Your quest is to mine (by hand mind you) the 25,000 gp diamonds to cast true resurection on the child.
Lord Ian Stark 06-10-05, 04:06 PM	Lock this thread of BS as it is obviously another stupid attempt at a Paladin thread for a joke.
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 04:12 PM	hm who here did bad things and a paladin and had to atone maybe you could give me tips on how to act and all what you did Okay Paladin's are the most extremely christian people in existance. You can't steal, you can't cheat, you can't lie. If something seems even remotely wrong don't do it. A Paladin can't justify anything, he's not chaotic. Lock this thread of BS as it is obviously another stupid attempt at a Paladin thread for a joke. I don't really think it is. the guy seem's pretty sincere.
General_Ridley 06-10-05, 04:31 PM	All the LG gods (Heironeous, Moradin, Yondalla, Bahamut, etc.) should get together and say, this guys loses all of his power, loses the ability to atone for these most grievous offenses, and forevermore shall be unwelcome in any decent temple, and to be the enemy of all who are pure of heart.
Humble_Player 06-10-05, 04:41 PM	:OMG! :rant: Honestly you are a complete idiot...You must 7 years old to role play that badly! I mean seriously! Even the guy who got kicked out my group for bad role playing would not do that! I mean especialy with the "There is always raise dead." If I were the DM I would not just take away your powers. I would kick you out! To sumarize. YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT!!!
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 04:43 PM	:OMG! :rant: Honestly you are a complete idiot...You must 7 years old to role play that badly! I mean seriously! Even the guy who got kicked out my group for bad role playing would not do that! I mean especialy with the "There is always raise dead." If I were the DM I would not just take away your powers. I would kick you out! To sumarize. YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT!!! That is extremely mean.
Humble_Player 06-10-05, 04:49 PM	I have no conscience...
Mel Kio 06-10-05, 05:02 PM	That is extremely mean. Perhaps, but it was true and ohsofunny. :P
MasterRookie 06-10-05, 05:08 PM	No I think people on this forum are way too ready to call someone an idiot. Just cause your a bad roll player doesn't mean your an idiot. This kid isn't an idiot he's a Rookie player. He was trying to be creative in his problem solving but for the wrong class. He didn't understand that Paladin's can't just justify things. It was a lapse of judgement and he accepts that now. You shouldn't pass judgement on someone you've never even met in real life. For all we know this kids got a 4.5 GPA and an IQ of 150 and he just hadn't read up enough to know that in DnD being brough back to life isn't like in a video game. One more option, what if his character had a really low intelegence wouldn't that mean he was roleplaying well.
WCH 06-10-05, 05:15 PM	Possibly not an idiot. Certainly has no concept of even the basics of alignment. This guy basically failed a DC 0 Wisdom check. That's pretty bad.
DaveReaves 06-10-05, 05:30 PM	Possibly not an idiot. Certainly has no concept of even the basics of alignment. This guy basically failed a DC 0 Wisdom check. That's pretty bad. Yes, I would say that knowing its not alright to slaugter innocent babbies falls under the DC 0 Wisdom Check that all squires must pass before becoming a paladin. But calling someone an idiot is not the way to go. How will you ever learn if you dont ask? This kid called on the community to help him, he got his help, and now needs to do something about it. Lets save the name calling for when he comes back and says that his paladin lost his powers again after taking the child to the temple of Wee-Jas and having it turned into a zombie just to see the look on the mother's face. (Now THATS evil)
Karanth 06-10-05, 06:44 PM	I know: We ask the mods to put up a sticky thread that says: Paladin + killing babies = EVIL! The ONLY exception should be when the baby is the spawn of an evil god.
Iron Cobra 06-10-05, 07:10 PM	hello guys i just woke up. thanks for all the comments of those who want to help and im going to see the dm around 9 or so cause i dont have school tomorrow :) so in the meantime i read the paladin info and saw where i made some mistakes :weep:
WCH 06-10-05, 07:28 PM	The ONLY exception should be when the baby is the spawn of an evil god.Even still. The Paladin thing to do would be to try to somehow *fix* the baby, or put it in someone's care who will prevent it from going evil.
makeshiftwings 06-10-05, 07:39 PM	I'd say the best way to attone would be to kill a few more babies until you get enough XP to take a prestige class from Book of Exalted Deeds.
StevenO 06-10-05, 10:52 PM	The question has since been answered long ago but the flame war may be a little uncalled for. In my opinion killing the dryad was improper and would have fallen into the Chaotic acts transgression. Atonement for that would be to raise her and undertake some quest on her behalf for forgiveness. However when your character DELIBERATELY killed the baby that was giving away you location you committed an evil act that can NOT be atoned. Had you taken other action to silence the baby that inderectly led to its death (think of a scared mother squeezing her child too tightly and smothering it) then atonement may be possible. Don't ever think that just because you can "fix" some problem you create you justifiably can take that action in the first place. Just because doctors can reattach a severed arm would you want your arm severed to begin with?
Jacilla 06-10-05, 11:27 PM	I'd like to know a little more about the DM in this situation. Because, as my son pointed out to me, as soon as the Dryad was killed either of us as DM's would have said ... something. (His idea was to have the paladin's deity appear and squish the now fighter, but that's another story). Still, it's up to the DM to handle these kinds of problems and the fact that he not only didn't jump on the Dryad thing, but continued the adventure, allowing the situation of the baby's death to even occur leads me to think that the DM might be as young and inexperienced as the player. In which case the DM needs to read more on the Paladin class as well, among other things, like, say, the DMG?
SnowbearK 06-11-05, 12:26 AM	blahblahblah.... I'm not subjecting the rest of the universe to a recap of the inanity (and insanity) that is this thread, nor will I voice my personal opinion of the OP, as I happen to believe in the CoC. So, to work forward, and under the tenuous assumption that this is in fact a real thread... Iron Cobra> Stop playing right now. At the very least stop playing Paladins. You appear to have an ultra-pragmatic and ego-centric nature -- while it can be appreciated in the real world and even an asset in business, in D&D, it's very harmful to the group setting as well as the Good alignment. Neither is a trait of ANY paladin except fallen ones who go on to become the most vile sacks of bio-waste imaginable. Before deciding to play a paladin again, may I suggest going to the library, reading everything you can find on a young knight named Galahad. Dissect from your readings the "why" of his actions. Then read the various legends of the Samurai. Pay especially close attention to how the "heroes" act during questions of honor. Now read the legends of the Lone Ranger. Pay close attention to how he acts when bribed, threatened, & cajoled. Pay even closer attention to what he does in regards to the innocent and the evil. Then volunteer to pick up trash along a highway for the whole summer. Take no offered compensation, drink only water, and smile the whole time -- this will give you an idea of a Paladin's life. Oh, and read War and Peace in your spare time -- not for any other reason than the fact that it should take you at least a few more months, during which time you'll have plenty of quiet time to think about what a Paladin really is. If you do all of this, you'll have an excellent appreciation for hard work, dedication, good deeds done solely for the sake of doing good deeds, as well as an idea of how such people deal with others and various situations. If you don't, I would suggest scrapping the idea of playing a Paladin altogether and roll up a Neutral or Chaotic Neutral character (ultra-pragmatic or ego-centric). And I know I said I wouldn't voice my opinion, but let me just say, as a DM with about 3 decades of experience, if someone had pulled this in my game, their character would be struck down by divine retribution, no save, no chance of resurrection -- the player would then be given the choice either to leave the table forever, take the time to research (ie, accomplish the above) and demonstrate verbally that they understand what a Paladin is, how they act, and why to the satisfaction of my regular group, or play a different character after apologizing to the rest of the group for allowing their own lack of morals to leak into a Paladin character in the game.
CelineSSauve 06-11-05, 12:51 AM	The ONLY exception should be when the baby is the spawn of an evil god. Okay. I find that note funny because it applied to my PC. When she was 3 my half-Druid who eventually grew up to become a Druid/Sorceress/Ranger(that last bit is because she got pregnant and couldn't cast spells...) was spotted by a Paladin. This fellow, knowing by the teachings of the land that Drow _are_ Devils, the spawn of evil and all that is bad decides that he'll take pitty on the half-breed child and do some sort of ceremony with her to remove the 'Demon' half. He, or course, promises to return her *if she survives*. Oddly enough her father didn't go with the plan and went after them. The paladin who was on his horse managed to hit her father in a way that he crushed his head on a rock. She saw this from a distance since her father had freed her first and she goes to the Gnome Druid who eventually ends up teaching her his ways. Of course, that Paladin didn't have to atone because the Druid was all to happy to 'restore the balance' by killing the Paladin who killed my PC's father in the first place. *Cel P.S. That, by far is the best reason I've ever had for a paranoid character. She has since always worn a hat and does not trust Paladins (she calls them GoodyGoodies:) unless they happened to have just turned into one or she didn't know they were of that rank before she started to trust them for saving her life or something.
Cantankerous 06-11-05, 01:07 AM	Good greif, you really are for real? I_C, just a gentle piece of advice then, for future reference, please, DO read the basics of the character you are going to try to role play. Yeesh, this is what video game/Computer Game role playing does to people. Hey, I read once on the Morrowind forums that the designers specificly left small children out of the game this time around because they didn't want younger players simply slaughtering them for fun. So, without a Mod, there are no children in Morrowind and the one modder who added them made them embarrassingly fast and horribly hard to kill compared to the average Ordinator (elite Temple guardsmen) for the same reason. Now you know why. Isshia
weasel fierce 06-11-05, 01:19 AM	What is the CR of a generic human baby ? :cool:
Iron Cobra 06-11-05, 01:25 AM	so i called my dm and he said he was still thinking up something to do cause the party didnt want me to leave. and i know my spelling looks dumb but i speak pretty well and dont look stupid in person. sorry if it looks like i'm a baby myself but im still trying hard to play the paladin the right way. my dm told me one thing and that you cant do bad things even if it means good things become of them because them youre no better than the bad guys :thumbsdow
Bringslite 06-11-05, 02:03 AM	You are trying to play a class within a game system that has defined Law and Chaos, Good and Evil. The Paladin class is held to high ideals in this system. For this, It is given grand powers and prestige. By all rights what your character has done is irredemmable. What your DM does about it is up to him but most DMs here would, and have, told you that your Paladin"s career is over. Time for a new character. Play something less complex until you learn the game better. Read the books. Especially the sections about class and alignment descriprtions. Paladins need to be held to the highest of ideals of Lawfulness and Goodness. If they are not then they are a broken class. No one who thinks it is okay to "snap decision" slay a nursing creature (Dryad), and lie as to why, or kill a baby to keep it quite is ready to play a paladin. What are the social skills for (Sense Motive, Bluff, Intimidate, etc., etc.) if not to explore situations before going off like a rabid chainsaw? Best of luck.
BloodBought 06-11-05, 02:14 AM	honestly it is circumstances like these that help me to understand the reason that my current DM has the rule he does. Anytime he has a first time D&D player in one of his campaigns, he always requires them to build their character as a fighter (later he may allow the person to take on some additional classes after the person has had the chance to learn how to play a little more). This rule works out rather well in my own opinion because it seems that fighters are probably the simplest class that there is in D&D and they are a class that can always be useful in a party. This means that it is always easy to bring a person into a campaign without messing up the balance of the party too much and it gives the first timer a chance to see how you play D&D without worrying too much about a lot of extra rules and complications.
pres_man 06-11-05, 02:17 AM	What is the CR of a generic human baby ? :cool: -20, if you kill it and you're a good (or even neutral usually) PC, you lose xp = to a 20th level encounter. If this is off the scale for a character of your level, this means that you must retire said character. ;) If you're DM rules that you are not punished for it (say your character is evil), then it is worth .000000000001 CR.
Cantankerous 06-11-05, 02:18 AM	Wait a second, in 3.x edition there is always a chance for redemption. There are no single acts, not even of this magnitude, that will end the Paladins career. The Paladin ending their career has to be their own choice in these latest editions. They can be stripped of their powers and if they ever advance a level in any other class while doing so they can never again become a Paladin, but THAT most surely IS the players decision. It's one of the things I like the most about the new edition. Now here, Atonement should be horrificly difficult. I outlined before what I as a DM would demand and IT made the character very nearly untenable, but the act of seeking Atonement when it would be so rigorous would be proof enough that such Atonement is deserved. I do agree though that you, Iron Cobra, might be better served playing a class that isn't so intricate until you learn the game and get the hang of things. The amount of abuse you've put up with on this thread, without loosing your cool (if you aren't indeed a troll) shows that you probably DO have the ability to become a damned good player, which is a highly valued commodity in this hobby. Try a new character, same gear et al, to save time if you like, but with a different name and background. Maybe try a simple Lawful Good Fighter, a young Knight who always wanted to be a Paladin and discover what it takes to be one. Then, when the DM and you decide that you've got it now, start taking levels as a Paladin. You won't loose anything this way, as the Fighter is a perfectly viable class and makes the then Paladin a more versatile and capable warrior, but you will have time to find out if the class is the right one for you and your temprement and abilities. Isshia
the Horc 06-11-05, 02:48 AM	As that Flash Series on Newgrounds.com so eloquently states: "YOU ARE A F***ING MORON!" Alright, after reading the first post, I couldn't help but say it. Let's see, murdering a good creature, which seemed to be protecting the baby from trolls, in so doing almost causing the baby to be grievously injured when it falls to the ground, lying about the whole thing, then in order to quiet the baby when your ass is in danger, rather than using one of the greatest 2nd level cleric spells, Silence, or a great 4th level arcane spell, Dimension Door, you kill it. Honestly, if I ever saw an individual to win the Darwin Award for Paladinhood, this would be it. You should be lucky that in order to atone, Tyr doesn't makes you blind and handless.
danielinthewolvesden 06-11-05, 03:04 AM	Lock this thread of BS as it is obviously another stupid attempt at a Paladin thread for a joke. Yep. He's a new member, and he clearly read the joke I made a couple days ago aboutfolks/trolls starting a thread about a paladin killing a baby kolbold, then made himself a new ID, came here, and started this thread. I doubt every single thing about his post- his claimed age, his faked bad english, and the episode. He's likely laughing his rear end off about how many folks he's fooled here on the boards, and how he has them all riled up over nothing. :rolleyes: My freinds- the Paladin in question won't lose his paladinhood because he didn't kill anyone- and even more importantly- there is no paladin in the 1st place. You've been had, hornswoggled, conned, the wool pulled over your eyes, etc. Sorry.
Darckchild 06-11-05, 03:08 AM	Sorry to hear that about your problems, dont worry about it. It's only a game. Besides I know many "mature" players who have done far worse... far, far, worse. As to fixing the problem, just understand what you did wrong. Talk to the DM and see if there is some way to change what you did... Like the whole thing being a dream or nightmare and the group wakes up before anything was killed.... Other ways to explain "the dryad" was evil and somehow had tainted the child with faerie magic and the kid was evil too... It's a story, the DM can help you salvage it. Or you may have to bite the bullet and face the consequences for your character's action... The family may want you brought to "justice"...meaning that it's highly unlikely you'll get a chance to atone for the character sins.... But it could be really cool to try to play it out. I wish you the best of luck. ;)
the Horc 06-11-05, 03:10 AM	Yeah, Daniel, you're almost assuredly right... but it's still really funny when I read this.
Lathos 06-11-05, 03:41 AM	Not sure if this has already been suggested, but have you considered retiring this character and creating another. Let the DM take over this character as an NPC. If you want to play a paladin, create a new one. You could even make one investigating the fall from grace of the original one if you want.
The_Elder 06-11-05, 04:18 AM	I pray this is a joke therad Other wise WTF were you thinking......slaughter a "ushualy caotic good" creture and then CDG a baby :OMG! say hi to warrior or blackgard The:dice:Elder BTW dose anney one know why I am entering this debate.......I am not shure :banghead:
Puritan13 06-11-05, 04:29 AM	Because that fish-hook is firmly in your jaw? Now on to my own opinion of this thread: DIE!! DIE THREAD!! DIE!!!
Al2902 06-11-05, 06:32 AM	Sadly, I don't think that this is a joke. Irrespective of its intentions, however, it is far and away the funniest paladin thread in history. Let's have a brief recap. The paladin is question: Decapitated a non-evil innocent dryad in cold blood Internally justified this as it was keeping the baby against the mother's will, when in fact is was merely looking after (making sure it doesn't get eaten/knifed by loony ex-paladins) Externally justified this by abusing your reputation and deceiving your comrades Murdered a baby because it was crying (and no wonder it was!) Leaving aside the inherent stupidity of murdering the baby you were meant to save, that particular combination of actions is not merely evil, that evil-deluxe. I have evil characters in my campaign who would consider this beyond the pale. The lawful evil character in the SRD may have compunctions against, say, murdering babies. Raise Dead doesn't cut it. Neither does Atonement. If you're lucky, you're paladin will get decapitated by the nobles when and if they discover what you've done. Unlucky, and it's hanging or lynching. At no point should your character ever regain his paladinhood. Atonement is something that the remorseful paladin who was forced into a morally dubious position as a result of a genuine dilemma has to undertake. It is not applicable for actions that would make most evil people balk. He has also just shifted in alignment to True Neutral with Chaotic and Evil tendencies. My advice is to retire him and roll up a new one.
GDwarf 06-11-05, 08:31 AM	Now, I have no comment on the OP or topic of this thread, he may be trolling, he may not be, but his question has been answered enough. What does annoy me are the people brandying about how 14 year olds are all immature idiots who pull this stuff and that they learn it all from Computer Roleplaying. Yes, this post is off topic, but I'm 15, I consider myself to be at least a decent roleplayer, I know quite a few people at about my age who are great roleplayers, age should almost never be considered when saying how good a person will be at Roleplaying. The very logic that states that the younger you are the worse you are at RP, (That is true, but only when you get under 12 or so) taken to it's logical extension would mean that everyone over the age of 25 would be a master Roleplayer. Also, for me to consider a computer game to be an RPG it has to have Roleplaying, Diablo is not an RPG, it is hack 'n slash. I will admit that death is handled differently in Games such as Neverwinter Nights, but that doesn't mean that everyone who plays them will turn out to be a Baby killing Paladin. Heck, I got my first big intro to DnD from Neverwinter Nights, from an online server that demanded Roleplay in fact. Painting all Electronic RPGs and Teenagers with the same brush does nothing but anger the Teenagers/RPG players. I think you for listening to my off-topic rant, and hope that you agree with at least the idea that not all teenagers/ Computer RPGs are the same.
Cantankerous 06-11-05, 08:57 AM	First, who in this thread has ever said that age had anything to do with role playing ability? My 13 year old daughter is one of the better role players I've run into in the last decade or so. But comp RPG's and their effect on role playing? That I stand by. And I think I've got good reason to as well. So appearantly do the people at UbiSoft and Bethesda who refuse to put children characters into their big Morrowind project, or into Bloodmoon or into Tribunal, for the stated reason (now here I'll paraphrase) that they didn't want the children characters chewed up and spit out by immature idiots who haven't yet twigged to the idea that just because the computer can't react with disgust to such actions that they still aren't ok. That's one of the big differences between table top role playing and these idiot computer RPG's after all, the lack of socialization possible to the computer AI. Without the interaction everything seems ok. While this is insipid, it sometimes does come across this way... and computer RPG's enhance this. Isshia
GDwarf 06-11-05, 09:07 AM	But comp RPG's and their effect on role playing? That I stand by. And I think I've got good reason to as well. So appearantly do the people at UbiSoft and Bethesda who refuse to put children characters into their big Morrowind project, or into Bloodmoon or into Tribunal, for the stated reason (now here I'll paraphrase) that they didn't want the children characters chewed up and spit out by immature idiots who haven't yet twigged to the idea that just because the computer can't react with disgust to such actions that they still aren't ok. Isshia In some respects I agree, but it's still painting all CRPGs with the same brush, it's very much saying that Diablo is the exact same kind of games as Baldur's Gate, which it is not. Most RPGs now a days allow for online play, and when you have that then there is socialization. I would ask, quickly, if you've ever played the Baldur's Gate games, or Neverwinter Nights on a RP server (I mean an actually RP server, not the ones that claim to be but aren't). The argument that CRPGs create bad role players is somewhat true, if all they've played is Diablo or Icewind Dale, then yes, they will have a skewed sense of Roleplaying, but calling all of them bad is about as fair as the claim made (Somewhere in this thread, I think it was someone saying that they wouldn't allow a 14 year old in their game because they're too immature) that all people under the age of 15 are terrible at DnD, it's true in some cases, but it's still a very big generalisation. I'd also like to statethat I'd probably still think Dungeons and Dragons was a bunch of fat people rolling dice in their basement without CRPGs. Anyways, this is probably a topic for another thread, so lets leave it at this: I feel that CRPGs aren't all bad, and in fact introduce people to good RP, and you feel otherwise.
pres_man 06-11-05, 09:20 AM	There are many table top games that are just as bad as many computer games. -risk -stratego -hero's quest (god a I loved that game, and still use the figs :D ) -etc. Many games create a sense of "killing" the enemy with no respect for morality. Often times we develop morality, due to being challenged by others for our lack of. This sadly does not happen often in an online format. As for the age thing. The thing just about everybody has to go through levels of morality developement. The fact that there are levels means that the younger you are the more likely that you haven't passed through enough levels to be able to relate to others who have. Yes there are older people who are lower in morality then some younger people, but for the great majority this is not the case. You make observation about the majority not the unique individuals.
GDwarf 06-11-05, 09:34 AM	You make observation about the majority not the unique individuals. True, but for the age thing I was talking about maturity, not morality. But I suppose it still does apply. I also was not stating that the norm. For most games/people, I was arguing that not all of them were like that, which seems to be implied occasionally in this thread, I feel that most things should be covered in a case-by-case basis, and that almost all generalizations are bad (Yes, I know how Ironic that is.) Anyways, as I said above, this is a topic for another thread, not that this one has much of apoint any more...
Man in the Funny Hat 06-11-05, 11:02 AM	ignore this.
Moblin 06-11-05, 11:38 AM	Well troll or not I think this is one of the first paladin threads where some yahoo haven’t tried to justify paladins killing babies. Kind impressing actually :p
MasterRookie 06-11-05, 12:50 PM	You know I originally thought this meant having babies. Like a paladin is supposed to never marry or have sex or anything. Is that true?
prettyripples 06-11-05, 12:58 PM	A paladin is supposed to never marry or have sex or anything. Is that true? Check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=444245) for a discussion of that kind of thing. Sensible opinion seems to be that it's ok if your deity says it's ok (for divine paladins) and you do it in a LG way according to your code. Examples: No sex with married women. No underage sex. Only have sex with women who you deeply and truly love and who deeply and truly love in return. For most paladins you can then add: and to whom you are already married. [And yes, the sexes are interchangable here.]
wereooze 06-11-05, 02:59 PM	Theres just no blood coming out of this stone!