Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SparkleFrog 09-14-05, 05:40 PM	Greetings, fellow board members. After many years playing, I've decided to take up the DM's mantle after our current campaign is done. The twist, however, is that I'm planning on starting with a core only, no prestige class, 28 point buy campaign. Some of you may not find this startling, but let me explain my gaming history: throughout my own experience, and that of the group in its various permutations, we have never played with less than 32 point buy (and more often some charged-up variant of 4d6), and rarely with less than a dozen supplements available. Never has anyone played only core, and certainly never without prestige classes. Some of you may question my sanity at trying to reconcile a powergaming, mechanics-centered group with a "simple" ruleset. Let me just say I'm curious as to how D&D was designed to be done originally. Also, we have a couple of newer players in the group who, despite 6 months to a year of playing, have yet to learn how to make their own characters, or understand how the characters they do have work. I'd also like to show the group that flavour can be separated from mechanics, and you can play a samurai without having a class called "Samurai" on your character sheet. I'm actually expecting this change to be a lot harder on the players than mere "gaming culture shock". For instance, now that CRs are theoretically balanced, they will have to actually use strategy and get creative to ensure decisive victory. I will have to tone down NPCs. (I'm guessing that Elite array is standard, and only the vilest of important recurring villains gets a 25 point buy.) They may be more prone to metagaming NPCs because there are less rules and variations to take into consideration. However, I'm sure I'm missing many other benefits and hindrances that this system presents. What I'd like to ask you, my compatriots, is if you've ever run a game with a low point buy, core only, or no prestige classes, and what unique challenges and rewards such a game presented you. Forewarned is forearmed, and all that.
20goingon1232 09-14-05, 05:48 PM	If you start at level one, take the CRs of 1-4 with a grain of salt. My party walk through CR3s and I get near TPKs with CR1s. They are very fragile and a single blow can turn the healthy fighter into a mewling, staggered coward. Other than that, pray to the dice gods for help. Having to roll 2d8+8 damage on a ranger with only 4 hps left is not nice (she died; the gods were on my side with a 8+7... :weep: ).
crossbow 09-14-05, 06:03 PM	I run a game that started pretty much like you describe. No one has taken a prestige class yet and I’m just now looking at the complete series and deciding what I will and won’t use from it. I didn’t use a point buy but a standard 4d6 keep 3. It’s the way I prefer to run games. Simple can be good. That said, I’d have to agree with 20, don’t put much faith in the CR’s 1-3. Don’t use them blindly on CR alone, make sure you really look at what the creature is capable of and compare it to what your party is capable of. If the two don’t match, you might want to think twice. Stirges are a good example for me. The characters went into an abandon temple. Stirges attacked them. The party almost died at level 1. If they hadn’t run away, they would have died. Now, looking back, it was a memorable encounter for everyone but it also gave me some valuable insight to what I should and should not pit my group against. It was a good learning experience for all of us. I’m a lot more careful now of what kind of critter and how many of them I use. Just something to keep in mind. crossbow
VirgilCaine 09-14-05, 06:52 PM	I'm doing something similar with my first continuing campaign--PHB only, 4d6 drop one. Stirges are a good example for me. The characters went into an abandon temple. Stirges attacked them. The party almost died at level 1. If they hadn’t run away, they would have died. Now, looking back, it was a memorable encounter for everyone but it also gave me some valuable insight to what I should and should not pit my group against. They only do a maximum of 4 Con damage (after 4 points they run away)...they don't "hit" you at all...?
crossbow 09-14-05, 07:04 PM	Yeah. d4 points of con damage and a few to many stirges. Blame my 2nd ed upbringing. Con damage heals at one per day, so the adventurers were down for a while. Hit points would have been kinder, which was sort of my point. Stat draining monsters, poisons and sickness are especially hard on low level PC's. Just some things to be aware of and adjust accordingly for. crossbow
psionichamster 09-14-05, 07:09 PM	things to watch out for in a core game: leadership. decide at the beginning if this is available. if so, expect the party to double in size around lvl 6 money. if you stray far from the "expected wealth by level" table in the DMG, the system starts to collapse...in either way flight. not flying, but fleeing. if the PC's are not of minds to run from a tough fight, or even a relatively winnable one, with strategic thinking, they may lose characters more often than they are used to. culture shock. like you said, this is a significant change to your standard play style. that could mean greatness, but also has the potential for raging flaming table-flipping chaotic horrible-ness. watch for that and squash it early several posters have commented on it, and i will echo them. watch the CR's. if you mind PK's, you may have to modify a "drop appropriate monster here" style to a more strategically placed style. pick the baddy for the job, and watch out for crit-happy dice. nothing sucks more than getting dropped in the first round of the first fight with a lvl 1 char. (happened to me...halfling sorc. :( ) i don't really like playing lvl 1 parties anymore, since we have 6 players typically, and cr2's can obliterate half the party with ease. (ape vs 6 pc's can easily end in several rent-in-twain chars, especially if they have low HP or Con.) namaste' the hamster (ps, core-only rocks. you have to make your character shine, not the class/PrC/feat/spell/item you picked up from last week's new release) h
VirgilCaine 09-14-05, 07:19 PM	Yeah. d4 points of con damage and a few to many stirges. Blame my 2nd ed upbringing. Con damage heals at one per day, so the adventurers were down for a while. Hit points would have been kinder, which was sort of my point. Stat draining monsters, poisons and sickness are especially hard on low level PC's. Just some things to be aware of and adjust accordingly for. crossbow Um, actually, you can use the Heal skill to heal more than one point per day. Stat damage just requires several days of rest and care to recover from, but it can easily interrupt an adventure if more than one PC is drained down 4 Con.
20goingon1232 09-14-05, 07:20 PM	several posters have commented on it, and i will echo them. watch the CR's. if you mind PK's, you may have to modify a "drop appropriate monster here" style to a more strategically placed style. pick the baddy for the job, and watch out for crit-happy dice. nothing sucks more than getting dropped in the first round of the first fight with a lvl 1 char. (happened to me...halfling sorc. :( ) The wizard got splattered (-7hp) by a Darkmantle. In the fight after that, he was at -1 before he even had a chance to do anything. As in "roll init, guys... urk!" They were all ECL2 too. I tend start them at about that for a beginner's campaign. 1 is just too fragile.
Bruunwald 09-14-05, 07:37 PM	I wish you good luck, but from personal experience feel the need to caution you. Most of the players in our game were okay getting back to basics after a somewhat powered-up game that went on for many years. But I'll tell you: the one who wasn't did a lot of damage. He agreed to play core, then immediately began requesting overpowered combinations of things. When he didn't like the compromise he began to fudge his numbers. Finally, he was outright cheating and munchkinning everything he could. The problem was he was/is the live-in boyfriend of a longtime player, so kicking him out was less and less an option. Between him and the antics of the min/maxing rules lawyer who joined later and guilt-tripped me into keeping him on when I wanted to thin the group out, I was forced to finally shut the whole game down for a time. It's on hiatus, and I've warned them all that when I start again, it will not be with the group intact. But at this point, I don't know how I'm going to get the girlfriend back in without the boyfriend. Now, a lot of that is exclusive to my game, don't get me wrong. All I'm saying is that you might want to be careful who you keep. Some powergamers just can't let it go, and if they think they're right, they'll go to great lengths to get what they want. So it's good you've invested in some fresh meat. Cultivate those guys, you'll thank yourself later.
20goingon1232 09-14-05, 07:45 PM	But I'll tell you: the one who wasn't did a lot of damage. He agreed to play core, then immediately began requesting overpowered combinations of things. When he didn't like the compromise he began to fudge his numbers. Finally, he was outright cheating and munchkinning everything he could. As long as that combination is still Core, YOU were the one that renege on your word. He followed your instructions. However, if that combination is not Core, then you need to being out the hammergun and hit him with it. Also, I find that you automatically assuming that the girl is not mature enough to have a sit down talk about the behaviour of her boyfriend kind of... odd. Are you sure she'll leave if confronted?
SparkleFrog 09-14-05, 08:06 PM	Thanks for all the advice so far. 20goingon1232 and others, I figured I'd have to watch CRs closely and pay more attention to the abilities than the supposed rating. Also, I plan on trying to get them from level 1 to level 2 as quickly as possible. To me, it's important for them to understand how to build a character from scratch, which is why I think level 1 is manageable. Bruunwald, you mentioned the powergamers causing issues. I don't think ours will do that. I plan to preface my handout/campaign introduction with a small speech that makes it very clear I understand this style of play may not be for everyone and I won't be offended if they choose to sit this one out. Our group is the type that sometimes has multiple games going on at once, anyway (but never the same DM or campaign). And I plan to be very strict about the rules: if it's not in the PHB, you can't play it. If it's not in the DMG, you can't buy it (unless I've set it up specifically so you can, and if you ask/whine, you will not get it). If it's not in the Monster Manual, you can't steal its eggs to sell on the black market. ;) The only thing I intend to toss from the PHB is massive damage. Our group hasn't played with it for years. But I will not be using any fractional saves or BAB, no variants, no feats from other books, no prestige classes, no racial substitution levels, etc. It sounds like a lot of "no"s, and it is, but I'm hoping the end result is that they realize that they are what make their characters shine -- not the mechanical choices they make. psionichamster, depending on whether or not our hardcore powergamers decide to give this one a shot, my group could range from 3 to 5 or 6. If I've got more than 3, I will probably disallow Leadership. If they decide to bow out, though, I'd like to add it and gradually get the newbies used to a bit more complexity if they choose to use the feat. Right now there is only one for-sure player who would play the game and take it if offered. The whole idea of doing this game kind of came about when I made some realizations about our group: 1) No one's taken a base class past level 5 for longer than I can remember. (I joked with one player that we should turn the higher-level base classes into prestige classes so they see use.) 2) Our characters routinely use 3 or more books for mechanics. 3) One of our newer players still doesn't know how to total her own attack modifier. We start by asking them what kind of character they want to play, but more often than not, one of the more experienced players draws up a build as the newbie's eyes start to glaze over. Worse still, the newbies are starting to pick up the disruptive behaviours of the more experienced players. 4) A few of the players are getting really munchkiny in their combos. The options available to us make this really insane, and it hurts the newbies and those who are more roleplaying oriented: they're forced to give up flavourful options to be on par, powerwise, with the rest of the group. I nearly cried when I saw a new player spend three hours making a level one character, draw up a background that was by far the best I've ever read, and then have to remake it because another player announced he was playing the same race and class. Half an hour later, we'd redone the character to be a powerhouse that had no flavour at all, and the player was obviously unattached to this character. To make matters worse, as soon as we saw the other player's sheet, it became obvious that his archetype was entirely different than the first player's, and no reworking was needed at all. By then, we were halfway through a session, so the situation couldn't be rectified. Even if the player did want to play the original character, it's not powergamed at all. (Actual quote: "Oh, I'll worry about a prestige class later.") 5) Everyone just assumes they can use any feat or prestige class printed within a certain set of books. I've seen players literally throw tantrums at not being allowed to use a pet variant mechanic. Furthermore, our self-appointed rules lawyers don't even know the rules. (I always figured, if you're going to do something, do it right.) The game has become so focussed on mechanics that even I have trouble coming up with a concept that doesn't include them from the get-go. (I'm trying, though, and getting better. Enough practice and I should be in top form -- I hope.) Well, that ended up rather lengthly, but it goes into a lot more detail as to some of the issues our current game is having. I know that a core-only game won't solve all of these problems, but I know it will help with some of them. Our group has been kind of coasting the past little while; I think they need something to shake them up. (Someone in the group mentioned the World's Largest Dungeon, which I've heard described as a meat grinder, at best.) The roleplayers of the group have been patiently letting the hack 'n slashers have their way for upwards of a year now, and the hack 'n slashers have demonstrated a new unwillingness to compromise their playstyle for the newbies or the roleplayers. Playing the game, for most of the group, feels like just going through the motions, and the current DM is dissatisfied and can't wait to finish his campaign and get away from the chair. I don't mean to make out that our hack 'n slashers are problem players. They are just like anyone else: they have their preferences and peculiarities, and they're not perfect. I'm not perfect either, and I have my own strange quirks and ideas. I've done a healthy stint as a powergamer myself. But I get the vibe that a lot of the group is tired of the way things are right now, and many are losing interest (to the point where we're losing attendance). I know that this group can do a mix of both -- I've seen them do it before. So I'm hoping that something different will make them approach the game from a different angle.
FriendoftheDork 09-14-05, 08:44 PM	This sounds like a good idea, and alot like I do it. Ok, I do allow core PrCs, but many found them limited which means I think of them as fairly balanced. In my game we got one Blackguard, and one Assassin and one Thrallherd. Ok that's still 3/4 PCs with PrCs, but they only get one each and none of those are REALLY good. TH is from the XPH and not strictly core, but I allow that one as it is not a splatbook. But you can do fine without PrCs. 28 PB is actually a bit better than standard, thus you should balance that somewhat by increasing #s of opponents somewhat (5 kobolds instead of 4 etc.) or use the same stats for elite NPCs (instead of 25). But if you regularily give NPCs multiple 18s, then yes you should tone it down! As for CRs, remember that sole opponents are alot easier than multiple ones, and should recieve a tactical advtantage (suprise etc.). Also, monster are often alot tougher than NPCs, but less flexible and less likely to gain tactical advantages. For instance, a CR 3 Ogre is alot tougher than a 3rd level fighter, but said fighter can use feats and tactics to become a challenge after all. And remember, EL=party level does not mean a fair fight, only one that spends about 20% party resources. You can use ELs 2-3 for 1st level parties without causing a TPK, especially if the players are experienced. But avoid high CR monsters. A 1st level party can defeat 3 1st level fighters (El 3) but all die against a Gelatinious Cube (EL 3). But maybe you know all that.
Nom 09-14-05, 09:03 PM	I will have to tone down NPCs. (I'm guessing that Elite array is standard, and only the vilest of important recurring villains gets a 25 point buy.)By the DMG/MM, normal characters get standard array, which is 11,11,11,10,10,10 for things with hit dice and 13,12,11,10,9,8 for things with only NPC class levels. Elite characters - those with class levels, including PCs - get elite array, which is a particular 25 point buy. They also get max hit points for the first hit die. I usually let my PCs 25 point buy. Elite NPCs use elite array unless I've a particular reson to what to tweak the points balance. What I'd like to ask you, my compatriots, is if you've ever run a game with a low point buy, core only, or no prestige classes, and what unique challenges and rewards such a game presented you. Forewarned is forearmed, and all that.My experience is that it "just works better". PCs are calibrated to the level the CRs expect and there are fewer wierd combos to deal with. Having said that, the most points I've played with is 30; I've never played a truly over-powered game. My biggest "pro" for 25 PB is that it gives real "hard decisions" in character creation. You can't just have all scores that you care about at 14+, so you need to give some shape to the character to decide what he's going to be good at, what he's going to be normal at and whether he's going to be below average in anything. I also like the feeling that I win because I played well rather than because I was given a huge handicap.
SparkleFrog 09-14-05, 09:48 PM	FriendOfTheDork, I originally wanted to either allow core prestige classes or build ones unique to the characters in conjunction with the players. I shied away from the first option because the core prestige classes offer more to some base classes than to others (not that balanced, in my opinion), and the second simply because I don't have time. I was also considering allowing the XPH, but realized it was a whole new spell system they would have to learn. Psionics will exist in the campaign, but it won't be very prominent for awhile. I've never just given characters multiple 18s. :) Our group usually does "4d6, drop the lowest", although "4d6 reroll ones and drop the lowest" is the current favourite. We've also gone as high as "5d6 drop two lowest", and "84 points freestyle, all your stats start at 0" for a comparison. I've been trying to observe the party's tactics and learn from them. Their big thing right now seems to be flanking. Having played with these people awhile, I can guess at least what archetypes they'll make and, if they have full options available, what kind of feat, spell, and prestige class choices too. A couple of sessions have clearly illustrated to me that when faced with an equal EL, the encounter with more opponents is tougher. The party tends to have problems with ranged combatants too, and some of them are neglecting certain saves (most frequently Will). Nom, part of the reason I'm using 28 point buy is because it's still possible to pull off a no-negative-stat-modifiers character if you do it right. Call it a bit of a personal hang up, and a desire to not completely throw the group into shock. ;) Elite array, if I recall right, is 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, right? But by my calculations that works out to 22 point buy. If elite is for special NPCs when the group uses 25 point buy, then wouldn't 25 point buy work for a group with 28? (Maybe it doesn't scale like I think it does. I'm used to our NPCs having 28 or even 32 point buy.) I figured I'd save the 25 point buy for after they're adjusted to only having one 16, and maybe having a 9 or 8 in a score. Also, I don't want to start them "crippled", as it were. You are probably used to taking a couple negatives and working together as a party to compensate for them, but our group is not. I need to shock them enough they sit up and take notice, but not so much they have heart attacks and keel over! In some sense, I'm hoping to break open the group's perception of the game by showing them that having more restrictions (or less options) can actually lead to more freedom within the character and the game. While there is undoubtedly an ideal balance somewhere in the middle, our group has been dizzyingly top-heavy on options for some time, and has never played the opposite extreme. I know I would love to allow things from the Complete or Races on a case by case basis, but the players simply won't get the point, or respect the boundaries if I do. I've seen previous DMs for this group try it and get trampled. I'm hoping that after shoving them into the swimming pool, they'll realize the water's not as cold as they thought, and they might even find the swim refreshing. As a side note, I've been looking through the free adventures posted on the website to see if there's anything suitable to start them off with. Does anyone get adventures from another site? It's not that these ones are bad, but there are too few of them and I know our group has been run through at least one of them twice before (different DMs). Of course, I would be modifying the adventure to suit my purposes, but I'm a woefully uncreative individual, and I really stink at plots.
FriendoftheDork 09-14-05, 11:55 PM	FriendOfTheDork, I originally wanted to either allow core prestige classes or build ones unique to the characters in conjunction with the players. I shied away from the first option because the core prestige classes offer more to some base classes than to others (not that balanced, in my opinion), and the second simply because I don't have time. Well they might favor some classes, i never considered that. Which ones do they favor BTW and which do they ignore? I was also considering allowing the XPH, but realized it was a whole new spell system they would have to learn. Psionics will exist in the campaign, but it won't be very prominent for awhile. Yeah make sure you're used to it before implementing it. I've played Psion myself a few times and checked it out. But I mostly allow it for flavor, and find it less broken than alot of the splatbooks. I've never just given characters multiple 18s. :) Our group usually does "4d6, drop the lowest", although "4d6 reroll ones and drop the lowest" is the current favourite. We've also gone as high as "5d6 drop two lowest", and "84 points freestyle, all your stats start at 0" for a comparison. Was talking about NPCs really. 5d6 drop two lowest does increase the chance of multiple 18s alot though! I've been trying to observe the party's tactics and learn from them. Their big thing right now seems to be flanking. Having played with these people awhile, I can guess at least what archetypes they'll make and, if they have full options available, what kind of feat, spell, and prestige class choices too. A couple of sessions have clearly illustrated to me that when faced with an equal EL, the encounter with more opponents is tougher. The party tends to have problems with ranged combatants too, and some of them are neglecting certain saves (most frequently Will). Thats good. If they win too easy exploit their weaknesses, if not let them use their strenghts. Nom, part of the reason I'm using 28 point buy is because it's still possible to pull off a no-negative-stat-modifiers character if you do it right. Call it a bit of a personal hang up, and a desire to not completely throw the group into shock. ;) Elite array, if I recall right, is 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, right? But by my calculations that works out to 22 point buy. If elite is for special NPCs when the group uses 25 point buy, then wouldn't 25 point buy work for a group with 28? (Maybe it doesn't scale like I think it does. I'm used to our NPCs having 28 or even 32 point buy.) I figured I'd save the 25 point buy for after they're adjusted to only having one 16, and maybe having a 9 or 8 in a score. No, elite is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That's 25 point-buy. 25 forces players to get an odd ability. 28 does not. Do the one you want, and do the same for elite NPCs. Also, I don't want to start them "crippled", as it were. You are probably used to taking a couple negatives and working together as a party to compensate for them, but our group is not. I need to shock them enough they sit up and take notice, but not so much they have heart attacks and keel over! He he he.. I once started everyone with 15-point buy and NPC classes only! Of course they got 25 later and PC classes but still! If I were you I'd propose your plan. If they don't want to play 25 raise it to 28 (don't ask, just change if they don't want to try it) After awhile they should get used to it. Especially when they realize the rest of the world isn't any better. In some sense, I'm hoping to break open the group's perception of the game by showing them that having more restrictions (or less options) can actually lead to more freedom within the character and the game. While there is undoubtedly an ideal balance somewhere in the middle, our group has been dizzyingly top-heavy on options for some time, and has never played the opposite extreme. I know I would love to allow things from the Complete or Races on a case by case basis, but the players simply won't get the point, or respect the boundaries if I do. I've seen previous DMs for this group try it and get trampled. I'm hoping that after shoving them into the swimming pool, they'll realize the water's not as cold as they thought, and they might even find the swim refreshing. Good luck! players need cold showers sometimes. As a side note, I've been looking through the free adventures posted on the website to see if there's anything suitable to start them off with. Does anyone get adventures from another site? It's not that these ones are bad, but there are too few of them and I know our group has been run through at least one of them twice before (different DMs). Of course, I would be modifying the adventure to suit my purposes, but I'm a woefully uncreative individual, and I really stink at plots. Sorry, can't help you there I have the same problem myself. Good thing is, many official modules will fit your PCs better as they won't walse through everything. Try to get some dragon magazines, good modules there (and not too expensive). I don't know if anyone has a database of plenty of good and free modules, in fact I doubt it. Navy blue=my comments.
weasel fierce 09-15-05, 12:48 AM	sometimes, less is indeed more.
SparkleFrog 09-15-05, 01:24 AM	My dear Dork ;), they favour rogues, clerics, wizards, and barbarians. I tend to druids myself. Paladins rarely see play due to the party's inability to deal with or play anything Lawful or strongly Good-aligned, ranged fighters are automatically rangers, sorcerers are deemed a laughable inclusion in the PHB (something at least one player intends to change), and no one even thought of bards as a class until I played a Diplomacy fiend. A couple of players have a hardon for the Warlock and Ninja. Mostly, what classes they are into depends on what they're dipping them for. It gets difficult really fast to keep track of four or five builds that each have two or three different base classes and the same number of prestige classes. I really really like psionics but will probably wait a few levels before opening it up to PCs. I badly want to do an Eberron campaign too, but simplicity is the ultimate aim, so it will have to wait for next time. My overriding goal here is to teach the new players how to make and run their own characters, so I have to keep things uncomplicated for a bit. If it works as a refresher for the more experienced players, so much the better. They will undoubtedly want to raise their point buy to 28 over 25 -- in fact I expect to get an earful for a good 15 minutes to a half hour for suggesting something below 32 point buy, before I even get around to the "core only" and "no prestige class" part. I expect pouting, whining, passionate arguing, and rending of hair and gnashing of teeth. I know it took me a few months to convince myself that a campaign like this would be interesting and worth a shot. To some extent, our games have always been mechanic-focussed, and I find myself staring across the abyss wondering what it's really like over there. (And living by the philosophy of "you don't know 'til you've tried", I've decided to take a flying leap and see what it really is like.) I know our new players won't care a whit about the restrictions, because they don't know how to use what they've been given in the first place. They're still in the "My character is an orphan from town X who..." stage. Wonderfully detailed backstories. Skill ranks are not always maximized, but put in whatever fits their background and what they think would be useful to have. They even ((gasp)) take cross-class skills! I know there are many other times when I could've used a bucket of water over the head in terms of playstyle. I also feel bad for showing our new players only half of the spectrum. It is very difficult to watch them come up with an excellent character concept that has no basis in mechanics, and then see the life get squished out of it by a 10 to 20 level build they can barely read and reference, let alone understand how to implement. I see them picking up bad rules lawyering, bad tactics, and even bad builds from our more munchkinny players, and their abilities to interact (both in the world and with the rest of the group) without engaging in combat dwindling. Where a year ago, our hack 'n slashers would read articles on roleplaying and agree to give them a shot, today they are actively making excuses as to why they won't/don't/shouldn't hand in backstories or develop any sort of personality/character before the game starts. This wouldn't even be an issue if they developed some through the course of the game, but they don't. It really frustrates our roleplayers, and I've heard more than one muttered comment about "Why don't they just go play Halo multiplayer then?" I'm actually concerned that this sudden switch will bring the tension to a direct fore -- hence my little disclaimer about "no hard feelings if you think this game will be dog turd". I really would like to try and accomodate everyone, but the group's got such a wide range of tastes it's nearly impossible. Also, I've noticed they change their tastes within a session, with very little consistency. I've had a previous DM counsel me to just "do what you want, because there's no way you'll be able to make them all happy at once" on the principle that if a DM is unhappy, the players are even more unhappy. Not sure what to make of that advice. Has anyone else played with a widely varying group, and how do you balance it? Do I need to sit down and have a stern talk about respecting your fellow gamer and validity of multiple styles of play before we start? I intend to give everyone fair warning of what my campaign is like and ample opportunity to back out gracefully beforehand, but should I perhaps be doing something a bit more to smack them gently upside the noggin?